*Why are you c@nts such hypocrates?

[Big P]

Vi,

First of all you used the word libertarian in your defination of conservative.

To me the defination of conservative means "I must conserve what is mine by exploiting everyone else".

As for beng a liberal. You make it sound like they want to rob the rich and give to the poor. Well didn't the rich get that way on the backs of the poor? I see Liberals as people who want to even the score.

Why is it OK to give free money to huge corporations who mismanaged themselves into the ground, but we can't give free money to people who bust their asses but only get paid minimum wage?

A person that makes minimum wage falls below the poverty level. That means they are willing to work for what they want, so they are unable to qualify for services that they pay for through their taxes (I.E. food stamps, medicaid etc.) They don't get health insurance and paying for it privately would take 75% of their income.

The raise that congress just voted for theirselves ($4700) is equal to about 1/3 of the yearly income of a person who makes minimum wage.

did they? my pops got pretty rich by studying and working long hours his whole life and creating his own respectable business bringing all his employees to wealth with him.

he started out in an apartment where his father died when he was only 9 years old which unfortunatly left him and his 3 brothers and mother to fend for themselves


I dont get why it seems a lot of people who are bitter about thier state in life, whether its thier own fault or not (which it usually always is) and want to blame others for all thier problems.

and they seem to like to blame the ones who made it in life (most if which work hard all thier lives)


im pretty sure its not jealousy but almost bitterness because they know deep inside that "you get what you put into it", but they try to convince themselves its not thier fault, this is why they blame others instead of actually "putting into it" so they can "get somthing out of it" its a great excuse to be lazy too,

ill be honest me, i dont deserve a good job, i dropped out of high school, got my GED and went to a shitty technical colledge. I knew what i was doing when i dropped out, I knew not going to a good college would most likley mean a harder existance meeking out a life and trying to raise a family, but I did it anyway. and guess what? it was my own damn fault

if I didnt have the privilage to have an opportunity to show what I can do at the family business,

then I would prolly still have some shitty paying job, and i wouldnt blame anyone else for it but myself,


but i garanfuckintee I would be slangin dope till i paid some shit off



I love Mishester this is not an attack just an argument

 

[We Love 1]

Fast forward to 2009. The nation is still at war (two wars, in fact), and now also faces the prospect of a severe recession and federal budget deficits topping $1 trillion as far as the eye can see. .

I believe We should hold those accountable to pay for such debts! Not the American tax payer who was decieved into unjust wars.

I believe We should go to war with the Rothschild family for making this all happen for Us! They own the banks which manipulates EVERYTHING!

They own 500 TRILLION dollars! Over half the worlds wealth. Whats only 1 TRILLION to them?

People need to wake up to reality.

 

[NewGrowth]

What can I say? People are retarded and the shittiest president in history is finally almost out of office. You can call me a liberal but Sarah Palin was an idiot and "you" idiots voted for her.

 

[undertheice]

To me the definition of conservative means "I must conserve what is mine by exploiting everyone else".

try broadening your definition of the meaning of conservatism. try seeing it as a rationally cautious attitude and a belief that the people are capable of rising above their worst instincts if only government would allow them the freedom to do so. it may not always work out that way, but the alternative is to chain the people and force them into someone else's idea of what is fair.

rational conservatism is about the lessening of constraints on all the people in the hopes that the private sector is capable of balancing our greed and our charitable nature in an act of enlightened self-interest. it contains an inherent faith in the power of the people, not the government, to come up with equitable solutions to the problems that face society. it realizes that the consolidation of power within any government can only lead to the sort of uncontrollable bureaucracy that enslaves its citizens in their own best interest. it contains the very "power to the people" we all cried for not so long ago.

there is, of course, a certain element of savagery to conservative philosophy. it allows for failure and demands that we each pay for our own mistakes. the concept of "small government" does not allow for the sort of waste inherent in the welfare state. it leaves the indigent at the mercy of the private sector, but a private sector freed of the massive taxation, in the control of the masses instead of regulatory bureaucrats and, therefore, able to expand its charitable endeavors.

As for being a liberal. You make it sound like they want to rob the rich and give to the poor. Well didn't the rich get that way on the backs of the poor? I see Liberals as people who want to even the score.

can you, for just one moment, throw off the fairy tales and propaganda that have been shoved down your throat since you were knee high to a toadstool? can you escape this reverence for the underdog and begin to understand that there is no native nobility in poverty and no inherent evil in wealth? as you speak of the rich abusing the poor, i hear echos of stalin and mao just before they murdered thousands to enrich their own coffers. as you spout the rhetoric of "evening the score", i remember the thousand petty tyrants who used the exact same phrase to enslave millions in the name of a better world. that better world is an illusion created by political animals and held just out of reach to better control those foolish enough to believe in the altruism of their masters.

that better world can never be forced upon a population by its government. only by mutual agreement can an equitable distribution of funds come about and there is nothing mutual about excessive taxation through force of arms. there is nothing noble about punishing success and rewarding failure. there is no freedom in limiting the rise of some so that others may prosper through no effort of their own. the hand-outs and give-aways of the liberal establishment can never bring about the equality they promise. they are only another, more comfortable, form of slavery.

 

[We Love 1]

Stop listening to what they say and start looking at what they do.

Vi

Exactly Vi!

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=freedom+to+fascism&emb=0&aq=0&oq=freedom+to+fas#

 

[ViRedd]

And once again, no one on this entire site can say it better than Undertheice!

Thanks, man ... that was a beautiful post. And welcome back. You've been missed.

Vi

PS: Miss ... please read Undertheice's post 500 times. The answers to your questions will never be answered any better than that.

 

[medicineman]

rational conservatism is about the lessening of constraints on all the people in the hopes that the private sector is capable of balancing our greed and our charitable nature in an act of enlightened self-interest.

The problem as I see it then, is there are no rational conservatives. Most conservatives I've been witness to are nothing more than greedy bastards that would cut out their mothers heart for a nickle.

 

[TheBrutalTruth]

rational conservatism is about the lessening of constraints on all the people in the hopes that the private sector is capable of balancing our greed and our charitable nature in an act of enlightened self-interest.

The problem as I see it then, is there are no rational conservatives. Most conservatives I've been witness to are nothing more than greedy bastards that would cut out their mothers heart for a nickle.

Like you did, Med o' Mao?

Not all of us are as heartless as you...

 

[NoDrama]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, Trebuchet MS]"Capital must protect itself in every possible manner by combination and legislation. Debts must be collected, bonds and mortgages must be foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When, through a process of law, the common people lose their homes they will become more docile and more easily governed through the influence of the strong arm of government, applied by a central power of wealth under control of leading financiers. This truth is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of Capital to govern the world. By dividing the voters through the political party system, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance. Thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves what has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished." USA Banker's Magazine, August 25 1924[/FONT]​

 

[medicineman]

Like you did, Med o' Mao?

Not all of us are as heartless as you...

How in the world did you come to that conclusion? Idiota. My mother was a saint. she raised 4 hellions, (boys) and one angel (girl) without going completly bonkers. I loved my mother. I guess you can't say the same,Eh? I must have hit a nerve.

 

[misshestermoffitt]

So do you not agree that when the owner or CEO of a company is bringing home a paycheck that is 1 million dollars per year while paying employees only minimun wage (which didn't receive a raise from 1990 to 2006 BTW) that is not getting rich off the backs of the poor?

How about when said CEO or owner, makes sure to give his employees only 35 hours per week so he can avoid paying them any kind of benefits? How would you define that?

What about the CEO who funnels off all the profits as pay and then wants the government to give him corporate welfare ? Those people who've been living on mimimum wage are now paying for their own salary through their own tax dollars. How long can we rob Peter to pay Paul? Time is running out, things are getting more real every day........


Oh and big P, you didn't say what kind of business your father owns, or how many people he employs, or how much they get paid, or if they receive enough hours to qualify for benefits. You also did not give any comparison to how much you father makes per year as salary to compare to how much his employees make.

I saw a guy in a Dairy Queen screaming at a woman because she couldn't make a blizzard in 2 minutes and 30 seconds, is that kind of berating worth 9 dollars per hour?

 

[NewGrowth]

No that's why I am retiring.

 

[undertheice]

The problem as I see it then, is there are no rational conservatives. Most conservatives I've been witness to are nothing more than greedy bastards that would cut out their mothers heart for a nickle.

i guess your just not looking in the right places then, because there's a whole lot of us around. not only are our mothers' hearts still intact and in place, but our own hearts are open and we are perfectly willing to lend a hand to those in need. what we object to is an intrusive government stealing the fruits of our labors for their own ill thought out and ill-intentioned schemes. the liberal establishment presents us with a series of ponzi schemes and pyramid scams, all designed to do nothing more than enhance their own standing in the political arena, and we're sick to death of paying through the nose so they can justify their pitiful existence.

the real greed resides in the halls of power and flows directly from those who use that power to control the citizenry. every monopoly and trust that victimizes the people can trace its origins directly back to those halls of power and the corruption of a bloated and intrusive bureaucracy. this is not conservatism or the capitalism you so despise, this is socialism conducted discreetly under the table. this is the natural outcome of nouveau-liberal policies designed to rob the people of their power over the marketplace and consolidate it within government.

i must admit, it's all quite artfully performed. hidden behind the lie of the ballot box and the pressures of mob mentality, we are led to believe in a series of grandiose entitlements that cannot possibly come about without government sticking its nose into our daily affairs. this is the great lie of our republic, that the people are in control of their elected representatives. the truth is closer to orwell's vision. while we use the illusory power of our votes to attempt to control those around us, we are actually handing over our dwindling power to a series of smarmy political animals and enriching them at the cost of our own freedom.

So do you not agree that when the owner or CEO of a company is bringing home a paycheck that is 1 million dollars per year while paying employees only minimum wage (which didn't receive a raise from 1990 to 2006 BTW) that is not getting rich off the backs of the poor?

is there to be no recompense for risk and responsibility? if a man is responsible for the welfare of a company that provides a livelihood for thousands of workers, isn't he entitled to a larger share of the pie than someone who does nothing more each day than fasten dohickeys onto widgets? shouldn't the person who invests his life and savings into the building of a company be able to expect more than the man who comes to him looking for nothing more than a paycheck at the end of a week's work?

it would seem a simple enough concept, derived directly from the natural order and softened by a bit of compassion. comfort and the ability to provide for one's family proceed from effort, intelligence and luck. no one demands that you work for the man who refuses to provide you with a living wage, but if you are willing to settle for that - then so be it. no one demands that you stay in a depressed area (we live in an incredibly mobile age) and make due with what little work may be available, but if you don't have the drive to move on to greener pastures - then so be it. no one demands that you even work for someone else, but if you lack the ambition to strike out on your own and take those risks - then so be it.

 

[misshestermoffitt]

They got rich off the backs of the poor, the people they keep poor. Minimum wage didn't increase for 16 years, I bet the CEO's and owners of companies sure saw raises in the same 16 years. It's just a step above slavery......

If the CEO or owner is entitled to such an amazingly larger share of the pie, then why aren't they made to sell their own personal pies before getting government money? Why are workers who are being paid under poverty level being expected to hand over tax dollars to bail out people who make more in one year than the under poverty level people will make in their lifetime?

Do you feel it is fair and just that the person working at McDonalds for minimum wage should help bail out the big 3? The CEO of GM made 14 million in salary and bonus last year, yet people who are making 17 thousand a year are supposed to be the ones to suck it up and help out?

It's all about greed, gimme, gimme, gimme, it's sickening really. Elderly people having to choose between food and medicine. Familys having to choose between meals and gas to get to work. It's a sad state this country is in and I'm amazed at you guys who think it's just all good and happy land.

 

[ViRedd]

Do you feel it is fair and just that the person working at McDonalds for minimum wage should help bail out the big 3?

Well, speaking as a conservative, of course I don't "feel" its fair. Not only that, but I don't THINK its fair either. What you described above is socialism ... and I'm against that. Maybe the other conservatives in the forum can chime in on this one as well.

Vi

 

[bradlyallen2]

try broadening your definition of the meaning of conservatism. try seeing it as a rationally cautious attitude and a belief that the people are capable of rising above their worst instincts if only government would allow them the freedom to do so. it may not always work out that way, but the alternative is to chain the people and force them into someone else's idea of what is fair.

rational conservatism is about the lessening of constraints on all the people in the hopes that the private sector is capable of balancing our greed and our charitable nature in an act of enlightened self-interest. it contains an inherent faith in the power of the people, not the government, to come up with equitable solutions to the problems that face society. it realizes that the consolidation of power within any government can only lead to the sort of uncontrollable bureaucracy that enslaves its citizens in their own best interest. it contains the very "power to the people" we all cried for not so long ago.

there is, of course, a certain element of savagery to conservative philosophy. it allows for failure and demands that we each pay for our own mistakes. the concept of "small government" does not allow for the sort of waste inherent in the welfare state. it leaves the indigent at the mercy of the private sector, but a private sector freed of the massive taxation, in the control of the masses instead of regulatory bureaucrats and, therefore, able to expand its charitable endeavors.

can you, for just one moment, throw off the fairy tales and propaganda that have been shoved down your throat since you were knee high to a toadstool? can you escape this reverence for the underdog and begin to understand that there is no native nobility in poverty and no inherent evil in wealth? as you speak of the rich abusing the poor, i hear echos of stalin and mao just before they murdered thousands to enrich their own coffers. as you spout the rhetoric of "evening the score", i remember the thousand petty tyrants who used the exact same phrase to enslave millions in the name of a better world. that better world is an illusion created by political animals and held just out of reach to better control those foolish enough to believe in the altruism of their masters.

that better world can never be forced upon a population by its government. only by mutual agreement can an equitable distribution of funds come about and there is nothing mutual about excessive taxation through force of arms. there is nothing noble about punishing success and rewarding failure. there is no freedom in limiting the rise of some so that others may prosper through no effort of their own. the hand-outs and give-aways of the liberal establishment can never bring about the equality they promise. they are only another, more comfortable, form of slavery.

This is a rather poetic and nostalgic interpretation of "conservatism". It is, however, rather inconsistent with today's version of "conservative" boots on the ground...the Republican Party. Where your idealism stops the bigotry and biblical ivory tower intolerance of todays republican party begins. These Republican leaders have continually stomped on the rights of any group not closely aligned with white-corporate-armed to the teeth-American greed. Rather than bringing about prosperity via the virtue of unregulated trickle down economics the Republicans have been busy codifying their white old man christian values into legislation every chance they get. And when the bible does not have a passage to cover acts such as prisoner torture, domestic eavesdropping, growing the government at the largest pace in our nations history, utilization of fictitious "facts" as a justification for war, and acts of retribution within government agencies (DOJ) as retaliation for inadequate party loyalty the Republican controlled executive branch has lumped these actions together as national security measures. Even more alarming is the willingness with which the army of "conservative" lemmings under the command of hate-mongers-in-chief Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter have closed ranks with the party and voted their allegience when more conscientious voters realized their political machine no longer bears any resembelance to the principled organization that was once the GOP.
I am profoundly tired of the Republican shenanigans. These dipshits have been busy destroying our country for the last 8 years, profitting from it's demise, and simultaneously presenting a utopian "conservative" vision much like the one you offered. The American people soundly rejected the fiction you put forth in your "rational conservative" bedtime story...it seems 8 years of ankle-grabbing has been enough for the masses.

 

[ViRedd]

The term "Conservative," like the term "Liberal," has been morphed into a new meaning over the years. Its kind of like Orwellian Truth-Speak.

Anyone who is not left of Lenin is now considered to be a "Conservative."

In the past, like around the start of the 20th Century, the term "Liberal" was used to refer to folks that were actually Libertarians. The Socialists commandeered the term as their own as the years rolled by.

That's an interesting thing about language ... its forever changing.

Vi

 

[Big P]

So do you not agree that when the owner or CEO of a company is bringing home a paycheck that is 1 million dollars per year while paying employees only minimun wage (which didn't receive a raise from 1990 to 2006 BTW) that is not getting rich off the backs of the poor?

How about when said CEO or owner, makes sure to give his employees only 35 hours per week so he can avoid paying them any kind of benefits? How would you define that?

What about the CEO who funnels off all the profits as pay and then wants the government to give him corporate welfare ? Those people who've been living on mimimum wage are now paying for their own salary through their own tax dollars. How long can we rob Peter to pay Paul? Time is running out, things are getting more real every day........


Oh and big P, you didn't say what kind of business your father owns, or how many people he employs, or how much they get paid, or if they receive enough hours to qualify for benefits. You also did not give any comparison to how much you father makes per year as salary to compare to how much his employees make.

I saw a guy in a Dairy Queen screaming at a woman because she couldn't make a blizzard in 2 minutes and 30 seconds, is that kind of berating worth 9 dollars per hour?

we pay the going salaries for people in that certain field, whether its an engineer, secretary or warehouse. obviously you have to provide proper pay and benifits to be able to retain the best people for the job or else your business prolly will not make it anyway

however, like if we are looking for a lawn company to do the landscaping outside the office we are obviously going to look for the cheapest "professional" provider

like what im saying is we are not going to pay sombody more than they are worth in fair market value. just like i dont get paid more than i am worth.

its really just like when u hire somone to do somthing for you at your home. sure u dont wanna use the cheapest plumber cuz he prolly sucks but then again you would never use an over priced one unless you cared not about wasting your families money.


in the case of over paid CEO's, I dont agree how they are allowed to get overpaid, but not because i think the workers need more pay. the worker can only make what they are worth. if they are not making that, thats another story but the overpaid ceo should be stopped because it takes away money from the shareholders and does not link the ceo's success with the success of the company

if anything should be done that is more than what the worker deserves for the current market value for that occupation, is maybe some company paid schooling and training, but anything more would be unfair to the sharholders just like paying a plumber too much would be unfair to your children as it takes money away from thier futures

as far as salary he is the only one who has not had a raise at the company in i dont know how many years. the ceo / president cannot pad his own salary as there is a board of directors and share holders who are all effected by extra expendetures. in hard times for the company the sharholders are obligated to infuse huge amounts of money to the company so it does not go under. during good years the share holders reap the rewards. your always 2 steps away for catastrrophe and bankrupcy

 

[max420thc]

i think im one of the only capitalist's here..the lone ranger..or the last cowboy...i just have to mention the so called american middle class is getting whipped the fuck out right now...incase you didnt notice..on top of million's upon millions of tax payer money..a bunch of large failed banks are contributing very large sums of money to obama's inagural event..we just gave them piles of tax payers money..and they are spending it on obama's coronation...everyone on here is too stupid to see a pay off when it is right in front of their face...just what i need to see when everyone in the country is loosing thier jobs and homes ..retirements ect...uncle obama riding up the street in a brand new cadillac escalade worth millions of tax payers dollars...his buddies paying for all of their shit with US tax payers dollars....the richest people in the WORLD are giving obama money...tax payer money, obama helped loot into thier pockets....i wonder how many jobs 150 million would save..or how many homes it would save? all on a party..its supposed to be very cold and snow on the obama party..obama and bidden just laid a wreath at the tomb of the unknown ..im sure every dead soldier in arlington was rolling over in its grave with those two commie mother fuckers even standing near them..

 

[misshestermoffitt]

but not a word about the big 3 arriving in Washinton in their private jets with their hands out for the tax payer dollar..........

Max, your rants about Obama are sounding more and more racial.........