Evolution Is A Theory On Which You Base A Religion

[mared juwan]

Yeah did you see the imagination land one? I love that God and Jesus are a part of imagination land, right up there with luke skywalker and morphius.


That is very interesting about the Black sea. And timewise it would be well withing human times, because they were in Europe during the last ice ages, so there would have been many people that were living in those areas at the time.

Yea those guys put a lot of thought into that show. Every episode actually says something about the world we live in. But yea I thought that Black Sea thing was cool too. Explains many of the flood stories in texts of all religions around the world. It makes so much sense that the end of the Ice Age would be seen as the coming of light, however there would also be a lot of climatic turmoil associated with such a change in global weather. Great floods and storms would be commonplace until the ice finished receding and the weather patterns stabilized. Compared to the weather of the Ice Age and the period of transition our current global climate is ideal for us. A "new begininng" perhaps?

 

[hanimmal]

Not to mention the dying off of the major threats to our species, the largest land mammal predators. It would allow us to no longer fear the wild as much and be able to be in larger communities.

And the death of the mammoths meant that the major agricultural revolution was free to happen since they no longer had them to rely on as a food source.

 

[mared juwan]

Yes, very good point. And of course these events would have taken a few generations to unfold. It would be important to keep track of who the main characters are and how they are related... such as whom begat whom.....hmmmmmm

 

[OregonMeds]

Yes, very good point. And of course these events would have taken a few generations to unfold. It would be important to keep track of who the main characters are and how they are related... such as whom begat whom.....hmmmmmm

Fred and Wilma begat pebbles, and Barney and Betty begat Bam Bam and that's even before the dinosaurs were gone.

They were even visited by a supreme being called The Great Kazoo from another world.

 

[mared juwan]

That gets me thinking, if there is no evolution that means all animals that are around now have always been around. No way for them to appear otherwise, right? How did perfect prey animals like cows survive with dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers everywhere? And not just cows. On every continent there are animals that would have been massacred by dinosaurs if they existed at the same time.

 

[PadawanBater]

That gets me thinking, if there is no evolution that means all animals that are around now have always been around. No way for them to appear otherwise, right? How did perfect prey animals like cows survive with dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers everywhere? And not just cows. On every continent there are animals that would have been massacred by dinosaurs if they existed at the same time.

Very good thought MJ!

I'd love an explination for that one, lmfao!

 

[Anonymiss1969]

That gets me thinking, if there is no evolution that means all animals that are around now have always been around. No way for them to appear otherwise, right? How did perfect prey animals like cows survive with dinosaurs and saber tooth tigers everywhere? And not just cows. On every continent there are animals that would have been massacred by dinosaurs if they existed at the same time.

+rep for that thought. Never thought of that.

 

[Katatawnic]

For those insisting that science means proof, wrong. Science is simply the study and quest for knowledge. Pondering and experimenting with hypotheses and theories is science. Obtaining answers is the result of science, not the definition of it.

Religion, on the other hand, is having "answers" without the need to study, learn, experiment, etc.

Attempting to claim that science is religion, or that religion is science, is futile. Apples and oranges, as they say.

 

[Brazko]

For those insisting that science means proof, wrong. Science is simply the study and quest for knowledge. Pondering and experimenting with hypotheses and theories is science. Obtaining answers is the result of science, not the definition of it.

Religion, on the other hand, is having "answers" without the need to study, learn, experiment, etc.

Attempting to claim that science is religion, or that religion is science, is futile. Apples and oranges, as they say.

+ rep for Wisdom

 

[krustofskie]

I have just spent the last two hours reading through all the posts and looking at the "facts" put forward by each point of view and not one person from the religouse community will waver from their beliefs in sight of overwhelming evidence against their point of view, where as those of the scientific are open to being proved wrong and admit to a posability, no matter how small, that they could be wrong.

An argument can not be won if who your arguing with is not open to being proved wrong.

I think thats why its called blind faith as you have to be blind to the evidence to carry on believing in religion.

Why do most religouse types think that science is trying to disproove the existance of God, its not, its just trying to understand via evidence how and what we are. Science does not disprove god, in some cases it can be used to say thats how he/she/it created things. What science has done for us however is put more than seriouse doubt in the claims of religouse orginisations. Religion is not God but how someone believes in God.

Personally don't believe in God but I am open to the idea that there could be.

It is impossible to be absolutely certain about anything, at all.

Sorry to be picky, I am actually on your side of the argument Padawan. But you can be absolutley certain that eventually we will all die.

 

[Katatawnic]

The vast majority of religious people I know do agree with evolution and not creationism. They believe that God did it, but they don't argue evolution or the Big Bang or the age of the universe, etc. They also believe that science can prove the existence of God, not the other way around. However, I also have an aunt who is highly intelligent and educated; until God comes into the conversation, and with her it always does. She insists that the earth is 6,000 years old, and believes the Bible word for word. It's quite difficult, albeit also amusing, to hear her speak with vast knowledge about neo-natal ICU units, and then talk about the Noah's ark in the next breath.

Religion is not God but how someone believes in God.

I couldn't agree more! Fortunately, I've known many people who also understand this. I have nothing against people believing in a deity. It's organized religion that scares the hell out of me!

 

[PadawanBater]

I have just spent the last two hours reading through all the posts and looking at the "facts" put forward by each point of view and not one person from the religouse community will waver from their beliefs in sight of overwhelming evidence against their point of view, where as those of the scientific are open to being proved wrong and admit to a posability, no matter how small, that they could be wrong.

An argument can not be won if who your arguing with is not open to being proved wrong.

I think thats why its called blind faith as you have to be blind to the evidence to carry on believing in religion.

Why do most religouse types think that science is trying to disproove the existance of God, its not, its just trying to understand via evidence how and what we are. Science does not disprove god, in some cases it can be used to say thats how he/she/it created things. What science has done for us however is put more than seriouse doubt in the claims of religouse orginisations. Religion is not God but how someone believes in God.

Personally don't believe in God but I am open to the idea that there could be.



Sorry to be picky, I am actually on your side of the argument Padawan. But you can be absolutley certain that eventually we will all die.

Touche!

Good post Krusty, +rep.

 

[sdholic]

Have to say, there really is an imbalance in the creationism argument. To auto-respond with "God" to every piece of potential evidence pointing toward evolution shows a huge amount of ignorance and even disbelief in your own "faith". Not a single one of us knows how we got here. To be offended by mans attempt at understanding our origin is certainly counterproductive.

btw, It seems to me that the Bible is best read in light of its human origins. Man obviously wrote this book so be it divinely inspired or not, it is not literal (especially not the 6000 years idea, lets be reasonable). Its a sort of metaphorical history book if your ask me, but not without value by any means. Im a weird one...

God Bless,
SD

 

[landracer]

i am finishing my degree in biology and have studied science my whole life. evolution is extremely problematica from a scientific point of view. it doesnt stand up to the standard scientific analysis. furthermore, even among respected professors the subject is debated with a religious fervor. it seems that the peer pressure from the science community is such that anyone that publicly rejects evolution is cosidered stupid.... regardless of any facts. i am just stating what i have personally witnessed.

 

[hanimmal]

+Rep for everyone, very good posts.

i am finishing my degree in biology and have studied science my whole life. evolution is extremely problematica from a scientific point of view. it doesnt stand up to the standard scientific analysis. furthermore, even among respected professors the subject is debated with a religious fervor. it seems that the peer pressure from the science community is such that anyone that publicly rejects evolution is cosidered stupid.... regardless of any facts. i am just stating what i have personally witnessed.

First congrats on your degree! We need more scientist in this country.

I am curious though which things are you talking about that don't stand up?

I would imagine you mean things like conjecture (connecting the dots when there is not a dot to connect). But in absence of evidence and a 3 billion year old video camera there would be little that you can do other than constantly fit the facts and evidence that you get into the theory.

I think that I more look at it like a math problem. Think a function. You do the math for the few points that you know and come up with a formula. That allows you to plug in the formula you had just seen with the evidence and get the graph. Now for every piece of evidence that we find it would need to fit into that formula, or the formula is void. And if it is void, you now need to get back to work and figure a formula that works for all the new information. And with that you redo it. And redo it when something else comes up. Everytime you may/will not be right, but you are closer to the answer.

See I think that the discourse you are referring to is more about the methods and evidence, and not that they happened. There can be other things that caused the changes, but what has more facts and evidence evolution or religion? I would say to the people that would argue that evolution doesn't stand up but religion does to really explain their point of view.

And the religious people jump on the disagreements, and say: See they cannot agree that it even happened! Instead of actually learning about what they are disagreeing about is more about the method, not the actual evidence.

 

[Brazko]

I have just spent the last two hours reading through all the posts and looking at the "facts" put forward by each point of view and not one person from the religouse community will waver from their beliefs in sight of overwhelming evidence against their point of view, where as those of the scientific are open to being proved wrong and admit to a posability, no matter how small, that they could be wrong.

An argument can not be won if who your arguing with is not open to being proved wrong.

I think thats why its called blind faith as you have to be blind to the evidence to carry on believing in religion.

Why do most religouse types think that science is trying to disproove the existance of God, its not, its just trying to understand via evidence how and what we are. Science does not disprove god, in some cases it can be used to say thats how he/she/it created things. What science has done for us however is put more than seriouse doubt in the claims of religouse orginisations. Religion is not God but how someone believes in God.

Personally don't believe in God but I am open to the idea that there could be.



Sorry to be picky, I am actually on your side of the argument Padawan. But you can be absolutley certain that eventually we will all die.

This was a Good Post, but Flawed..Firstly 90% (guesstimate) of the posts have been by Fish, 5% (guesstimate) by OP who admitted he doesn't know shit so thought he would manipulate a thread to gain some understanding... & the other 5% (guesstimate) by people who have religious/mysticism based concepts whom appear more than logically opened to scientific views...

Fish, although outspoken and likes to share doesn't account for everyone

Vice versely 90% of the posts by the Evolution base (guesstimate) are completely Closed to the notion/concept of a god being or, atleast care not to discuss it, and only waiver to the possiblity once science uncovers what is said to be truth... The only problem with this is that Man will discover the truth, not religion or Science, tools of the Man and Woman

10% (guesstimate) are by those who place their trust in Science and are simply open to the facts, understanding, and truth..

Other than that I completely agree with your post, however, being closed minded doesn't discriminate, but more so a Choice,

So it's the 10% and 5% that will move Us forward, and the Rest simply needs to be recycled

addendum: Sorry to be picky, I'm actually on nobody's side, but technically you can't be absolutely certain that we will all die, technically speaking..

+Rep for everyone, very good posts.




First congrats on your degree! We need more scientist in this country.

I am curious though which things are you talking about that don't stand up?

I would imagine you mean things like conjecture (connecting the dots when there is not a dot to connect). But in absence of evidence and a 3 billion year old video camera there would be little that you can do other than constantly fit the facts and evidence that you get into the theory.

I think that I more look at it like a math problem. Think a function. You do the math for the few points that you know and come up with a formula. That allows you to plug in the formula you had just seen with the evidence and get the graph. Now for every piece of evidence that we find it would need to fit into that formula, or the formula is void. And if it is void, you now need to get back to work and figure a formula that works for all the new information. And with that you redo it. And redo it when something else comes up. Everytime you may/will not be right, but you are closer to the answer.

See I think that the discourse you are referring to is more about the methods and evidence, and not that they happened. There can be other things that caused the changes, but what has more facts and evidence evolution or religion? I would say to the people that would argue that evolution doesn't stand up but religion does to really explain their point of view.

And the religious people jump on the disagreements, and say: See they cannot agree that it even happened! Instead of actually learning about what they are disagreeing about is more about the method, not the actual evidence.

Good Post as Well, however, I believe Evolution is Real but the science is flawed, just as God is REal and the religion is flawed... It's a hard and unjust comparison for me to compare the "Do Overs" of Science with the Misguided steps of religion, Man's approach to Theory eventually gets the Science Right, Just as Man's honest attempt to understand Himself and the World around him, finally get's the Religion right... Remember We are simply a Chemical Formula of thought, sometimes We have to simply start over as Well, Be Born Again!

I also enjoyed this statement

"See I think that the discourse you are referring to is more about the methods and evidence, and not that they happened"

this is very True and it doesn't discriminate neither,

Anyhow, I enjoy reading your posts, I get a fulfillment of Growth instead of stagnation as with most others...

 

[krustofskie]

This was a Good Post, but Flawed..Firstly 90% (guesstimate) of the posts have been by Fish, 5%

True, I shouldn't label all religouse types with Fishes narrow way of thinking. Just after reading for so long in the early ours stopped rearlising most of the God side of the argument was from fish.


+rep you seem to be a truly objective and open minded thinker, need more peoples like yourself in the world.

 

[krustofskie]

addendum: Sorry to be picky, I'm actually on nobody's side, but technically you can't be absolutely certain that we will all die, technically speaking..

I think we would need to start a new thread to debate this, in fact I think I will, how should I title it? 'Is death an absolute certainty or not ?'

 

[hanimmal]

Good Post as Well, however, I believe Evolution is Real but the science is flawed, just as God is REal and the religion is flawed... It's a hard and unjust comparison for me to compare the "Do Overs" of Science with the Misguided steps of religion, Man's approach to Theory eventually gets the Science Right, Just as Man's honest attempt to understand Himself and the World around him, finally get's the Religion right... Remember We are simply a Chemical Formula of thought, sometimes We have to simply start over as Well, Be Born Again!

I also enjoyed this statement

"See I think that the discourse you are referring to is more about the methods and evidence, and not that they happened"

this is very True and it doesn't discriminate neither,

Anyhow, I enjoy reading your posts, I get a fulfillment of Growth instead of stagnation as with most others...

I definantly agree with you, everything is flawed at this point (because we don't have the absolute truth with anything).

And interestingly I do agree with your talk on religion, religions are adjusting and evolving to this day to try to get the things that fit into them (not a lot of the ones I know of, but I am sure they are out there). I just think that religion (like some scientists (not the science itself, because that has to adjust to be called science)) stagnates and gets too set in its own ways.

Anyway good post!

 

[Katatawnic]

I believe Evolution is Real but the science is flawed, just as God is REal and the religion is flawed... It's a hard and unjust comparison for me to compare the "Do Overs" of Science with the Misguided steps of religion, Man's approach to Theory eventually gets the Science Right, Just as Man's honest attempt to understand Himself and the World around him, finally get's the Religion right... Remember We are simply a Chemical Formula of thought, sometimes We have to simply start over as Well, Be Born Again!

Indeed! I have never bought that "Born Again" only applies to religion. Hell, I'm in the process of being "Born Again" due to chronic illness. It's gone on at least since I was two years old (that's the first incident to which my mom took notice; she and the doctors were beyond baffled as to what was causing so much pain in my legs and dangerously high fever, with no injuries or knowable illness, to make me scream uncontrollably; much more than a toddler would without breaking a bone, etc.), but it's increased throughout my life, and exponentially faster and more intense the last 12 or so years.

I've been going through a major grieving process for the last four years, and more intensely the last year and a half when I finally had to give in and give up my career which was also my biggest passion; mourning the life I've lost and will never regain. Never is a fairly long time! This results in severe depression, anger, denial, apathy, extreme jealousy (sometimes to the point of feeling extreme resentment) of healthy people, and a general feeling of hopelessness. And yes, sometimes suicidal thoughts as well; just wanting it all to end and feeling the desperation that it never will.

Although I still go through these emotions and misgivings, they are finally starting to recede, a step at a time. With immense conscious effort, might I add. The more I accept that this is simply the hand that I was dealt, and that my former life is just that, the more I'm able to let go of the mourning and have the ability to appreciate the wonderful things I do have in my life. This leads to more acceptance, and learning to let go of my previous Comfort Zones to make room for new ones that are more beneficial to my well being as well as that of my loved ones. It's a long and difficult process, but I'm finally making it further down the path on which I want, and need, to travel.

As difficult as it is on my body, growing my own medicine has given me something with which to pass my time aside from computer and TV; a feeling of accomplishment I haven't felt in years; a personal pride/satisfaction that I'm doing something extremely difficult (and often disabling the rest of the day/week) with very little help; a pleasurable hobby and activity; and a feeling of self worth for which I worked so hard to obtain, lost, and am again beginning to build; albeit one baby step at a time. This enables me to commit even more to doing it, and that encourages me committing to do more things that I've previously slowed down or stopped doing out of fear of the price I'm guaranteed to have to pay. I've even come to be less embarrassed using a cane or wheelchair, or needing my spouse to assist me in walking or housework or giving me injections, etc. (I don't look sick, nor young enough to be needing such things; it's what we call Invisible Disease, and people tend to look at us with contempt for "playing" disabled and ill when we appear normal and healthy), learning to look at it as not "giving in" to the illness because I'm doing activities that I otherwise wouldn't do without the assistance.... the latter is giving in to it, not the former! How we view hardships has everything to do with acceptance or the lack thereof.

I've learned more and more to see this as a birthing process; the birth of the New Me that will not only be able to accept the limited life that I now have, but equally importantly feeling and knowing that I will be Born Again into a person who may be broken, but still whole with a self identity that isn't That Disabled Person. My body won't heal (it deteriorates constantly and will continue to do so), but my mind can and will.

OK, it may seem I'm babbling and OT, but my point is.... Being Born Again isn't just for religion. My old self has died, and my new self is in the birthing process. That is what keeps me going, makes me hold on to hope for the peace and serenity I need and deserve. Some people need to believe in a deity to accomplish this, whereas some don't.

To be honest, I quite often wish that I had the ability to put faith into a deity, and believe that he/she/it is watching over me; helping me get through this life, to find what new life I do have ahead of me that I haven't been able to see.... the forest for the trees. But I've never had faith, even when I was a very little girl going to Sunday School and reading the Bible stories, etc. God/dess, for me, has always been "felt" when I'm surrounded by raw nature. Growing up in Wisconsin's beauty instilled that in me I'm sure, and moving to Southern California's Mojave desert as a pre-teen made me appreciate what I had growing up that much more. I'm one with a pagan philosophy, so to speak. I've had people argue with me that one cannot be simultaneously an atheist and a pagan; they are the ones who don't understand that paganism is a way of life and how one sees/approaches it, but doesn't necessarily have to be a religion. It's a connection with nature, the here and now; taking action and responsibility for our lives instead of expecting someone or something else to do it for us.

If I had the ability to have faith in the unknown (i.e., an omnipresent deity that is always watching out for and listening to me), I'm positive I could have coped with and accepted all of this much more easily, believing that it'll be taken care of for me if I just believe it will. I sometimes envy those who have such strong faith. But I've never had it.... I was one of those kids that debated with pastors in the middle of congregation.

However (and finally the summary to my rambling, LOL!), though I'm not being Born Again to a deity, I am well on my way to being Born Again to Life; one that will still have severe pain and limitations, but balancing the scales to acceptance, peace, serenity, and gratitude for what I can have and do with my life; which of course positively effects my loved ones. Lack of faith, much less a deity and/or religion, hasn't prevented me from being reborn; faith in myself and those who touch my life has enabled me to be Born Again. Or at least be on my way out of hell and into my own paradise.... my personal evolution, one could say.

In my not so humble opinion, heaven and hell are what we make of life in the here and now; not something to desire or fear in the hereafter.

Sorry this was so long!