Obama Proposal Crashing in First Hours

[fdd2blk]

i'm on dope.

 

[CrackerJax]

 

[Rob Roy]

Dude, the experiment is already done, many times over, in every other industrialized nation in the world EXCEPT the U.S.A.

Taxes will go up, but since you don't have to pay a private company who pays their senior staff in the multi-millions per year, it will ALWAYS be cheaper then private companies. Just like police verses private security force. Or Blackwater verses the military. Or the Post Office verses UPS. You will save money and never have to worry about going broke and bankrupt from medical expenses.

How hard is this to understand?

You can debate whether or not 'the government' can do the job well, but not whether it will be cheaper. It WILL be.

What if I PAY NOTHING now? How will a government plan be cheaper than that?

 

[dukeofbaja]

You're all on dope. I'm convinced of it now.
.
.
.
.
2.) We treat you in a timely fashion ... no waiting.

Every socialized medical govt run system is a mess.

Is that why my personal experience with private health insurance from companies such as Cigna or Kaiser was always a 10-21 day wait to see a doctor?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

If you can call each and every one of these 'socialized medical govt run systems' a 'mess', you have not taken an hour to learn how these messes are way better than our mess (in terms of both cost and availability).

On a related note, the $205 a month plan my fiance spent months finding because her pre-existing condition automatically disqualified her from most any other insurance will cost her about 10% of her annual income, a percentage which is sure to increase rapidly under our current system. Obama's fine/tax on not having health insurance would be 2-2.5% of income or $600-$800 max, depending on what version ends up passing. And yes, something will likely pass before November if Repubs want to pull off this comeback (and I predict they will gain LOTS of seats, why I believe that is another thread altogether).

Great posts by Dragline and BigTitLvr byt he way, +rep if I can

 

[fdd2blk]

 

[Dragline]

Anyone who has the financial means and is seriously ill in ANY of those socialized systems you love so dear ... flies to the United States to be treated ...

1.) We have the most modern medical facilities on earth
2.) We treat you in a timely fashion ... no waiting.
.

HAHAHAHA Bull Shit!!!! But nice try. Oh it is VERY true the US has many great doctors and many of those with the financial means to do so will fly here to be treated. But guess what! There are people in countries like France, Germany, and Italy saying the same thing!!!! In fact they are also talking about Americans with the financial means to do so going there for treatment!

 

[BigTitLvr]

Gosh and all those systems are either broke or going broke.

You're all on dope. I'm convinced of it now.

Anyone who has the financial means and is seriously ill in ANY of those socialized systems you love so dear ... flies to the United States to be treated ...

1.) We have the most modern medical facilities on earth
2.) We treat you in a timely fashion ... no waiting.

Every socialized medical govt run system is a mess.

First, ummm, yeah. We are all certainly on dope. But that's neither here nor there.

The fact is, I get your point. But anyone with money anywhere will go spend it on the best doctor that their money can buy.

The debate is about what is the right thing to do for all of the other 90% of American's who don't have a big pile of money to fall back on. Every nation in the world has to think about this: what is the best health care for their citizens, for the best cost. Because if you don't care for your people, the...country...will...fucking...die.

And every other nation has reached the conclusion that it is cheaper overall and in their best interests of citizen health to cover everyone and pay doctors directly for all health care for the people. If the wealthy pay more for private practice physicians who charge more, so be it. But the common man needs adequate full coverage care as well! Even he's a janitor, it does NO ONE any good for him to die or get seriously ill and leave his family stranded and begging the state for help. Get it?!

But not the U.S.: where corporations own our congress and courts.

And the worst part of it is that the vast majority of American's are so brainwashed into fear of the 'S' word by the controlled media that they fight back against one of the best developments ever to be offered to mankind: yes, socialized medicine.

No one, rich or poor should die from pneumonia or childbirth. And keeping people sick does NOTHING good for our economy.

Unless anyone on this website right now can claim to be part of the 3% of our population who hordes the 97% of wealth, the rest of you will benefit GREATLY from socialized medicine. So how have they convinced you to fight for their profits at the expense of your health and paychecks? I just don't know...

If you haven't heard, all those 'social' countries in Europe live longer and healthier and wealthier then we do. But Fox news wont tell you that.

 

[BigTitLvr]

What if I PAY NOTHING now? How will a government plan be cheaper than that?

If you pay nothing because you choose not to have health insurance you will one day cost me money when you show up at a hospital from an accident or old age.

Wouldn't it relieve your mind to know: if an accident did happen one day it wouldn't cost you your savings or your life?

 

[dukeofbaja]

Also, if he has free health insurance through his employer, he should keep in mind that it comes as part of his overall salary, wages + benefits. And if the benefits cost more to provide, as they most certainly will under our current system, then wages go down.

Oh yeah, and they can and likely will drop you if/when you get seriously sick, then you will be forced into paying out the ass for insurance because you have a 'pre-existing' condition.

Best healthcare in the world, right.

 

[Man o' the green]

The Constitution allowed for slavery, as well. There was also no such thing as heath insurance at the time of the early colonies. The founding fathers simply could not think of everything. But, instead consider the intent of the Constitution. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness..." To deny adequate health care to is deny all of that.

Consider for a moment, patriot, that the first few words of the Constitution are: "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union..."

Try to imagine what "We the People" implies. At the time, the colonies were breaking from their motherland and the bond they were forming is apparent in their carefully chosen language.

At some point, we are going to have to "Ask not, what your Country can do for you, but what we can do for our Country." To be a real patriot is to create a union of strength & prosperity. By neglecting our obligation toward our fellowman we are showing unbelievable weakness and selfishness. It is very UN-patriotic to care less for your neighbor's life and wellness.

And this is besides the larger point that the current policies are allowing these private companies to engage in price gouging and murder! In what other industry is that acceptable, today? When then SHOULD the government regulators get involved?

You will feel different the day they try to turn down a life-saving operation or medication for you or your child. They will rouse your anger that day, when you should had your conscience roused today.

We have a socialist Army, a socialist Policy and Fire Departments, etc... You need to consider deeply what should be the role of good government.

Slavery was addressed at the time only to deal with states rights. Should the federal government have regulated slavery ? ( Wouldn't the free market have doomed slavery anyway ? )
Healthcare has been a concern since the founding of the republic, and has always been addressed privately. There was opportunity to shove in everything that was "happiness", but the founders intentionally left it out, as well as most other things the government does today.
The constitution provides freedoms, not obligations, you are set free by our union to have life, liberty and property ( and pursue happiness if you want ) These are what you still have as your inalienable rights that the government can never take away. Once the government provides those, they are no longer rights. They will give and they will take.
"We the people.." is clear to me. The people give the government a limited role to keep them free. Just like us, our founders could see tyranny all over and government out of control. They were rebelling against oppressive government, not creating a perfect socialist state.
I have done more for this country and my fellow man than I care to explain, but I did it. It was my choice. It was my sacrifice.
Selfishness is my right. Charity is my choice.

"And so, my fellow Americans : ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country.
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man" -- JFK

This quote illustrates exactly what I'm talking about.
It tells me that personal sacrifice is preferable to any government program. If the intent is to be a patriot by service or sacrifice, that is an individual's choice as well.

Again, it is not the government's responsibility to alter the free market for any reason other than non-capitalistic practices, such as monopolies and price-fixing. People dying does not mean murder, and it's worse to have a monolithic organization determining who can live or die, vs. the free market. Basically who do you want giving you choices regarding your life, an accountant or a bureaucrat. You don't like your insurance, get another. You don't like your bureaucrat, fly your plane into their building.
I'm not worried about paying for some emergency care, you pay or you can't. It's better to be alive and in debt.. It is much more likely that with socialized medicine, that the life-saving operation or medication just won't be available. And, getting sick is like playing the lottery, someone might make a mistake and you ( and your lawyer ) get the big payout. I would be quite wealthy if I had followed lawyers' advice in this regard. My choice was to do the honorable thing, and not exploit the system and therefore, "We the people", for personal gain.
Besides that : I am responsible for myself, I don't expect a hand-out from the government. I will die first, that is my patriotic duty not to burden my socialist countrymen, right ? However, I will not deny the gift of life willingly given by another.
I have a clear idea of good government, it is as little as possible. It has been shown that having basic protective services is critical to the functioning of society. These functions are best suited to an authoritarian model, that is why socialism works for them. I will not have this type of system to live by as a free man.


The fact that this time it's healthcare is irrelevant, this is an issue of freedom and rights : The federal government has no authority over this.

 

[BigTitLvr]

Slavery was addressed at the time only to deal with states rights. Should the federal government have regulated slavery ? ( Wouldn't the free market have doomed slavery anyway ? )
Healthcare has been a concern since the founding of the republic, and has always been addressed privately. There was opportunity to shove in everything that was "happiness", but the founders intentionally left it out, as well as most other things the government does today.
The constitution provides freedoms, not obligations, you are set free by our union to have life, liberty and property ( and pursue happiness if you want ) These are what you still have as your inalienable rights that the government can never take away. Once the government provides those, they are no longer rights. They will give and they will take.
"We the people.." is clear to me. The people give the government a limited role to keep them free. Just like us, our founders could see tyranny all over and government out of control. They were rebelling against oppressive government, not creating a perfect socialist state.
I have done more for this country and my fellow man than I care to explain, but I did it. It was my choice. It was my sacrifice.
Selfishness is my right. Charity is my choice.

"And so, my fellow Americans : ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country.
My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man" -- JFK

This quote illustrates exactly what I'm talking about.
It tells me that personal sacrifice is preferable to any government program. If the intent is to be a patriot by service or sacrifice, that is an individual's choice as well.

Again, it is not the government's responsibility to alter the free market for any reason other than non-capitalistic practices, such as monopolies and price-fixing. People dying does not mean murder, and it's worse to have a monolithic organization determining who can live or die, vs. the free market. Basically who do you want giving you choices regarding your life, an accountant or a bureaucrat. You don't like your insurance, get another. You don't like your bureaucrat, fly your plane into their building.
I'm not worried about paying for some emergency care, you pay or you can't. It's better to be alive and in debt.. It is much more likely that with socialized medicine, that the life-saving operation or medication just won't be available. And, getting sick is like playing the lottery, someone might make a mistake and you ( and your lawyer ) get the big payout. I would be quite wealthy if I had followed lawyers' advice in this regard. My choice was to do the honorable thing, and not exploit the system and therefore, "We the people", for personal gain.
Besides that : I am responsible for myself, I don't expect a hand-out from the government. I will die first, that is my patriotic duty not to burden my socialist countrymen, right ? However, I will not deny the gift of life willingly given by another.
I have a clear idea of good government, it is as little as possible. It has been shown that having basic protective services is critical to the functioning of society. These functions are best suited to an authoritarian model, that is why socialism works for them. I will not have this type of system to live by as a free man.


The fact that this time it's healthcare is irrelevant, this is an issue of freedom and rights : The federal government has no authority over this.

There is almost too much bullshit in this post to respond.

First, slavery and free market? Get real; slavery is a moral issue. It was wrong then just as it is wrong now.

And the same goes for health care. It is a moral issue. Health care is never a handout, not even a single payer system- it is a service; which can be provided by the highest or lowest bidder-like any other service in this world. Our congress is bought and paid for by big business, so we currently are forced to pay to the highest bidder. Other Countries have found a way to bid it out to the lowest bidder; the government. This takes a large burden off of the poorer of the nation. Peace of mind = freedom, prosperity and happiness.

We can continue to pay the highest costs in the world for the worst service but WHY THE FUCK WOULD WE?

You obviously believe yourself to be above caring for the poorer in the nation, so let's focus on you. You're are PAYING TOO MUCH FOR SHITTY SERVICE, TOO. I don't care if you have a 'Cadillac' plan- you're paying too much for it.

The entire Country is being price gouged by a corrupt system. And it is causing the deaths of 40,000 Americans each year. Plus financially destroying many more thousands each year. It is not only immoral, but also STUPID.

In what other industry would the government or people allow private companies to continue those practices? You're right, we have laws against monopolies and murder for this very reason; death and financial ruin thru immoral practices are a sociopath's behavior.

You're absolutely right that government should be small. There is only a few legit services the government should tax us for. I submit health care should be one of them. The rest of the 1st world nations prove it. We pay 6x more yearly, and die earlier in the U.S. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FIGHTING FOR SO-CALLED 'FREE MARKET' COMPANIES TO OVERCHARGE YOU AND LET YOUR FELLOW MAN DIE?

It's not free market; it's a corrupt system and you've been sold. And now you're selling out your countrymen. So many people just don't give a shit about human life; even their fellow Americans. Fuck that rich, bitch, selfish bullshit. You 'pretend' richers are kidding yourselves. Single payer means cheaper cost and everyone's covered. That's American nationalism; to say you are the BEST at something. We are the worst right now and your drinking the shit-aid and calling it kool-aid. Meanwhile the 'true' wealthy; the CEOs of the insurance companies, are laughing their asses off because the joke's on the poor Americans too dumb to realize it.

 

[Illegal Smile]

There is almost too much bullshit in this post to respond.

First, slavery and free market? Get real; slavery is a moral issue. It was wrong then just as it is wrong now.

And the same goes for health care. It is a moral issue. Health care is never a handout, not even a single payer system- it is a service; which can be provided by the highest or lowest bidder-like any other service in this world. Our congress is bought and paid for by big business, so we currently are forced to pay to the highest bidder. Other Countries have found a way to bid it out to the lowest bidder; the government. This takes a large burden off of the poorer of the nation. Peace of mind = freedom, prosperity and happiness.

We can continue to pay the highest costs in the world for the worst service but WHY THE FUCK WOULD WE?

You obviously believe yourself to be above caring for the poorer in the nation, so let's focus on you. You're are PAYING TOO MUCH FOR SHITTY SERVICE, TOO. I don't care if you have a 'Cadillac' plan- you're paying too much for it.

The entire Country is being price gouged by a corrupt system. And it is causing the deaths of 40,000 Americans each year. Plus financially destroying many more thousands each year. It is not only immoral, but also STUPID.

In what other industry would the government or people allow private companies to continue those practices? You're right, we have laws against monopolies and murder for this very reason; death and financial ruin thru immoral practices are a sociopath's behavior.

You're absolutely right that government should be small. There is only a few legit services the government should tax us for. I submit health care should be one of them. The rest of the 1st world nations prove it. We pay 6x more yearly, and die earlier in the U.S. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FIGHTING FOR SO-CALLED 'FREE MARKET' COMPANIES TO OVERCHARGE YOU AND LET YOUR FELLOW MAN DIE?

It's not free market; it's a corrupt system and you've been sold. And now you're selling out your countrymen. So many people just don't give a shit about human life; even their fellow Americans. Fuck that rich, bitch, selfish bullshit. You 'pretend' richers are kidding yourselves. Single payer means cheaper cost and everyone's covered. That's American nationalism; to say you are the BEST at something. We are the worst right now and your drinking the shit-aid and calling it kool-aid. Meanwhile the 'true' wealthy; the CEOs of the insurance companies, are laughing their asses off because the joke's on the poor Americans too dumb to realize it.

I can't stop laughing!

 

[Mindmelted]

The government runs the postal service real well don't they.

They operate in the red every year.

Yeah let the government run our healthcare .

I would rather not have any,Oh wait i dont have any now so what is the difference.

Thats right i will be forced to pay a penalty for not being able to afford his shitty insurance.

 

[FlyLikeAnEagle]

The government runs the postal office real well don't they.

They operate in the red every year.

Yeah let the government run our .

I would rather not have any,Oh wait i dont have any now so what is the difference.

No difference to you obviously, but people like yourself are notorious for getting hit by cars crossing the street, guess who pays then?

 

[Mindmelted]

No difference to you obviously, but people like yourself are notorious for getting hit by cars crossing the street, guess who pays then?

Me,Myself and I you Cretin.

Not anyone else.

And if we have such terrible care why do people come to this country for surgery and such.

Like the guy from newfoundland.

 

[CrackerJax]

HAHAHAHA Bull Shit!!!! But nice try. Oh it is VERY true the US has many great doctors and many of those with the financial means to do so will fly here to be treated. But guess what! There are people in countries like France, Germany, and Italy saying the same thing!!!! In fact they are also talking about Americans with the financial means to do so going there for treatment!

What are you babbling on about?

 

[doggod]

why can you not pay for the doctor visit when you go? this is how the founding fathers knew it would work best.

you pay for food at the store when you go get food. just think how much more food would cost if we all just paid into a fund and the went and got all the food we wanted when ever we feel the need.

this is a problem, we rely on insurance companies and then you want to bitch about them. stop giving them your money and pay your doctor.

the problem with obama is progressivism. let us look at the progressives in the past 100 years, lenin, hitler, mao, marx, stalin, che, fdr, woodrow wilson, teddy roosevelt, clinton, bush, obama.

Wilson decided after World War I that war could be ended through a giant global power. He wanted a League of Nations,

all things that Americans reject.

 

[BigTitLvr]

I can't stop laughing!

"The rest of the 1st world nations prove it. We pay 6x more yearly, and die earlier in the U.S. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU FIGHTING FOR SO-CALLED 'FREE MARKET' COMPANIES TO OVERCHARGE YOU AND LET YOUR FELLOW MAN DIE?"


You're not laughing as hard as the 12-million-dollar-a-year CEO getting rich off your stupidity.

Why don't you try responding with a solution to fix our early death and rip off insurance plans. You got nothing. Go turn Fox News back on.

 

[ChChoda]

You're not laughing as hard as the 12-million-dollar-a-year CEO getting rich off your stupidity.

Why don't you try responding with a solution.

 

[FlyLikeAnEagle]

It truly is amazing how effective the republicans have been at turning sheep into foot soldiers for the health insurance companies. You guys are like chickens supporting Colonel Sanders.