Blue Dream 800W Induction Lights SOG

[dunit]

lol no. woosah is from that movie there.......bad boys i think. its his calming relaxing exercise....rubbing the earlobes while saying woosahhhh.

in anger management (the movie) they use goose frah bah it sounds like.

Bad Boys it was. Martin Lawrence trying not to lose it......use it all the time. lmao

 

[D.Gotti]

thats his name! i couldnt remember it! hes a really funny guy

 

[dunit]

I went back and reread your post, I see nothing about lux or lumens, so I guess there were no comments directed at you, however, if you were offended in some way, then by all means, please accept my apologises.......BB

Some days I'm just too touchy, Oxy withdrawl....can't wait to crop

 

[dunit]

This is a very interesting way of looking at the PAR spectrum that I’ve not seen before. I see that the units are uMole/s/m^2/nm, the per nm is the new addition I’ve not seen. It makes total sense in that it accounts for the fact that shorter wavelength photons have more energy than longer wavelength photons. This comes from an equation we have all seen:

E = hc/λ

Using the PAR Photon graph you can make direct one to one comparisons to the spectral graphs of the various light technologies to the PAR graph.

Well Done Brutha!

The more energy in shorter wavelengths I understand and PAR its self explanatory but two things confuse me about this graph and if you have a clue maybe you could enlighten me..

Energy decreases on a linear curve as wavelength increases so I don't get why the relationship between PAR sensitivity and PAR photons is A-not linear and B-peaks at separate wavelengths?

The only thing I have come up with is that although those are the wavelengths the plant is most sensitive to they are not actually the wavelengths most needed in which case the lighting industry has been chasing the wrong spectrum peaks for quite sometime and with all the engineers involved I am having trouble imagining they have done that.

Thanks for the kudos amigo

 

[D.Gotti]

This isnt a response- Informational only.

The amount of light a plant receives, has a direct impact on its growth rate. Most plants tend to grow faster when available light increases, however their maximum growth rate is achieved at a substantially lower amount of sunlight than 2,000 micromoles. The point at which a plant receives more light than they can utilize, is known as the Light Saturation Point. For most plants, the optimum level of PAR lighting is approximately 500 micromoles per square meter (~55 micromoles per square foot), and if these plants receive much over that, they can reach the point of light saturation.

this lamp is 700umol at 12" and 600umol at 24". average 500umol/m2.

 

[Burger Boss]

This isnt a response- Informational only.

The amount of light a plant receives, has a direct impact on its growth rate. Most plants tend to grow faster when available light increases, however their maximum growth rate is achieved at a substantially lower amount of sunlight than 2,000 micromoles. The point at which a plant receives more light than they can utilize, is known as the Light Saturation Point. For most plants, the optimum level of PAR lighting is approximately 500 micromoles per square meter (~55 micromoles per square foot), and if these plants receive much over that, they can reach the point of light saturation.

this lamp is 700umol at 12" and 600umol at 24". average 500umol/m2.

By God! This is good stuff....I was not aware of "light saturation" or that plants could only utilize just so much light.
Thanks for the info, it all helps to tweak one's understanding of the way of cannabis.......BB

 

[D.Gotti]

The point of light saturation is usually exceeded when growing cannabis. The affects are worse for some plant species. With cannabis, as we have heard in many cases, less is more. Its very hard for some others to understand that because according to most everything else, more is more.

BB.....That avatar.....I dont even know what to say....WWJD? LMFAO

How did he explain to the Department of Social Services that he was the best option for this child?

 

[solcielo]

Likin' where this thread is going and love the back and forth about PAR and the charts etc... I'll try and get in there and take some more pics tomorrow.

 

[xyzxyz]

solcielo

Props brother. Will be watching this with interest. Did I miss how long you vegged the clones for prior to flower? Also did you mention brand of induction lighting? I remember reading that for the colour K they are painted. Is this on the inside or outside of the tube and do you think the paint will fade with use shifting the colour K over their long life time?

Again, thanks brother. Pioneer for sure.

 

[chazbolin]

Greetings XYZXYZ

This thread is hitting on sooo many good points I don't know where to begin. The 'hide the pea' Kelvin ratings of lamps designed for growers is one of my favorite pet peeves since it generates enormous profits for lamp mfg's who push their products based on a certain Kelvin being necessary to achieve optimum results when 'properly' utilized within the plant cycle.

There are several companies out of China who will paint the inside of the lamp red. Some of them won't use a phosphor mix to get the lower end red. When doing so lumen output overall falls by 50%. The Chinese have even gone so far as to develop a 1/2 red and 1/2 white/blue on a single lamp. Ludicrous. Who wants any deviation in energy and PAR from a single lamp? If the goal is PAR UV and IR levels they could do so out of a phosphor blend evenly applied on the inside of the lamp. It's just more expensive to coat the lamps that way. They truly must take us for idiots.

But for the sake of argument let's take a fresh look at China's coupled 'solution' another way. By coupling, or fusing the glass envelopes together to form a single lamp, the two ratings of 6500 and 2700 K are then advertised as the 'optimum bi-spectrum grow lamp'. What they have actually achieved under these 'combined forces' however would be 4,500 K lamp with a 45 l/w rating, as published by the mfg's own white sheets instead of an uniform application of a 12 blend phosphor whereby 85 l/w or 166.5 vel/w is achieved with the Inda-Gro lamps which probably accounts for them being a bit more expensive. I suppose that's a run on sentence.

Lastly the Chinese have given these fixtures an IP65 rating (enclosed in glass) as it's usually sold as a tunnel light where ambient air circulating over the driver will remove any heat off of the housing before it can bake the mosfets (usual failure) inside the housing. When is the last time you purposely installed any IP65 outdoor rated fixture in a 7 day 12/12 cycle grow room?

IMO unless you thoroughly enjoy dealing with China for a warranty of the failed driver which they'll ultimately tell you is not covered under their thermal management exclusion (oh you didn't remove the glass?) then just go with an Inda-Gro as they price out about the same as the China direct and if any repairs are ever needed they do them in San Diego under the warranty.

I feel better now but I better get back to work or plants will become my full time job.

 

[The Steve]

The smaller bulbs I found have a 5 year warranty and the company is out of colorado. The owner is really cool and was able to work with me to get the bulbs I needed. Gladiator lighting.

 

[solcielo]

solcielo

Did I miss how long you vegged the clones for prior to flower? Also did you mention brand of induction lighting? I remember reading that for the colour K they are painted. Is this on the inside or outside of the tube and do you think the paint will fade with use shifting the colour K over their long life time?

They vegged for ~3 weeks while I tried to wait for one last stubborn clone to root and tried to give her a couple days of 18/6.

Lamps are the pro series 400W from inda-gro.com

No idea how to answer that question, I'm just a gardener with a little bit of engineering background If Chaz' response to K rating wasn't enough for you, you'd have to contact one of the manufacturers about that. I asked about lumen depreciation over time, and while these bulbs will last 10+ years, you will start to notice about a 5% decay after 6-7 years I was told. Fine by me!

 

[wanabe]

looking great may i ask why do you take off under growth?

 

[solcielo]

Here's my post on that from a couple days ago in this thread.

"As to the trimming that's tomorrow's job. I'm going to be following Al B. Fuct's advice and trim off the bottom 1/3 of anything but productive stems with promising tops after this first week of bloom and I'll come back through at the end of week three to clear up any leftovers. Though if you followed my last grow the undergrowth was just as thick as it is now and I just let it go and got tons of popcorn <shudder>. I thought that would be a great idea for more production in fact it just adds hours and lots of frustration to your trim time. I guess I'm saying I'm not as worried about mold because I keep the tent open with a whole lot of air moving through and around it, I'll be trimming to encourage more growth in the prime cola's and save me some headache come harvest."

And it makes sense if you only allow the plant to produce buds at the top that they will be larger and more robust as the plant can focus all of it's later stages of bud growth in those few I've left at the top and on the primary stems. Just trying something new to me and frankly, I don't want to deal with popcorn growth anymore it's just frustrating when you're dealing with 25-36 plants.

Also I've been told these lights don't have the same penetration as HID and I just swapped out these for my old 1000W HPS. Using HID I still yielded like 70g of popcorn that was all light and fluffy. It probably wouldn't even be recognizable as buds with these lights because of the thick canopy and lack of real penetration.

 

[chazbolin]

The more energy in shorter wavelengths I understand and PAR its self explanatory but two things confuse me about this graph and if you have a clue maybe you could enlighten me..

Energy decreases on a linear curve as wavelength increases so I don't get why the relationship between PAR sensitivity and PAR photons is A-not linear and B-peaks at separate wavelengths?

The only thing I have come up with is that although those are the wavelengths the plant is most sensitive to they are not actually the wavelengths most needed in which case the lighting industry has been chasing the wrong spectrum peaks for quite sometime and with all the engineers involved I am having trouble imagining they have done that.

Thanks for the kudos amigo

You're very welcome. I really enjoy seeing this data coming at me from different perspectives since it reinforces my understanding of lighting and this technology as well. Kudos are the least I can do.

In response to your A/B query I believe I have an accurate hypothesis's for this phenomena however since we're wading in some deep and well populated engineering waters here I really want to be factually accurate in my response. Is there any chance you can reference me to the source for the chart you'd posted? It will be worth it.

 

[dunit]

This isnt a response- Informational only.

The amount of light a plant receives, has a direct impact on its growth rate. Most plants tend to grow faster when available light increases, however their maximum growth rate is achieved at a substantially lower amount of sunlight than 2,000 micromoles. The point at which a plant receives more light than they can utilize, is known as the Light Saturation Point. For most plants, the optimum level of PAR lighting is approximately 500 micromoles per square meter (~55 micromoles per square foot), and if these plants receive much over that, they can reach the point of light saturation.

this lamp is 700umol at 12" and 600umol at 24". average 500umol/m2.

Well may not necessarily under the science but understand the practical application. I know when power consumption in British Columbia became an issue for a lot of growers there was a big swith up to 600WHID. I've got a friend who got them dialed in he was pulling only 15% less than under his 1000W using a 600W and he had been running 10-12 light shows for about 12 years at that point so not like he was a rookie with 1000's. 40% power saving and 15% yield drop......I always felt that 1000WHID were often "overkill" or as you put it "saturation" which was where that 25% power savings per gram came from.

 

[D.Gotti]

Greetings XYZXYZ

This thread is hitting on sooo many good points I don't know where to begin. The 'hide the pea' Kelvin ratings of lamps designed for growers is one of my favorite pet peeves since it generates enormous profits for lamp mfg's who push their products based on a certain Kelvin being necessary to achieve optimum results when 'properly' utilized within the plant cycle.

There are several companies out of China who will paint the inside of the lamp red. Some of them won't use a phosphor mix to get the lower end red. When doing so lumen output overall falls by 50%. The Chinese have even gone so far as to develop a 1/2 red and 1/2 white/blue on a single lamp. Ludicrous. Who wants any deviation in energy and PAR from a single lamp? If the goal is PAR UV and IR levels they could do so out of a phosphor blend evenly applied on the inside of the lamp. It's just more expensive to coat the lamps that way. They truly must take us for idiots.

But for the sake of argument let's take a fresh look at China's coupled 'solution' another way. By coupling, or fusing the glass envelopes together to form a single lamp, the two ratings of 6500 and 2700 K are then advertised as the 'optimum bi-spectrum grow lamp'. What they have actually achieved under these 'combined forces' however would be 4,500 K lamp with a 45 l/w rating, as published by the mfg's own white sheets instead of an uniform application of a 12 blend phosphor whereby 85 l/w or 166.5 vel/w is achieved with the Inda-Gro lamps which probably accounts for them being a bit more expensive. I suppose that's a run on sentence.

Lastly the Chinese have given these fixtures an IP65 rating (enclosed in glass) as it's usually sold as a tunnel light where ambient air circulating over the driver will remove any heat off of the housing before it can bake the mosfets (usual failure) inside the housing. When is the last time you purposely installed any IP65 outdoor rated fixture in a 7 day 12/12 cycle grow room?

IMO unless you thoroughly enjoy dealing with China for a warranty of the failed driver which they'll ultimately tell you is not covered under their thermal management exclusion (oh you didn't remove the glass?) then just go with an Inda-Gro as they price out about the same as the China direct and if any repairs are ever needed they do them in San Diego under the warranty.

I feel better now but I better get back to work or plants will become my full time job.

Ill be testing several suppliers. Including the Inda-gro, M-land, Everlast and more. Also in different wattages, shapes, and colors.

If you talk to the suppliers you will find out that you get what you pay for. For DIY savers, a few options are out their but you still get what you pay for.

 

[D.Gotti]

Well may not necessarily under the science but understand the practical application. I know when power consumption in British Columbia became an issue for a lot of growers there was a big swith up to 600WHID. I've got a friend who got them dialed in he was pulling only 15% less than under his 1000W using a 600W and he had been running 10-12 light shows for about 12 years at that point so not like he was a rookie with 1000's. 40% power saving and 15% yield drop......I always felt that 1000WHID were often "overkill" or as you put it "saturation" which was where that 25% power savings per gram came from.

I average 430g per 600w lamp.

 

[D.Gotti]

Likin' where this thread is going and love the back and forth about PAR and the charts etc... I'll try and get in there and take some more pics tomorrow.

Always glad to contribute.

Pictures!

 

[xyzxyz]

Greetings XYZXYZ

This thread is hitting on sooo many good points I don't know where to begin. The 'hide the pea' Kelvin ratings of lamps designed for growers is one of my favorite pet peeves since it generates enormous profits for lamp mfg's who push their products based on a certain Kelvin being necessary to achieve optimum results when 'properly' utilized within the plant cycle.

There are several companies out of China who will paint the inside of the lamp red. Some of them won't use a phosphor mix to get the lower end red. When doing so lumen output overall falls by 50%. The Chinese have even gone so far as to develop a 1/2 red and 1/2 white/blue on a single lamp. Ludicrous. Who wants any deviation in energy and PAR from a single lamp? If the goal is PAR UV and IR levels they could do so out of a phosphor blend evenly applied on the inside of the lamp. It's just more expensive to coat the lamps that way. They truly must take us for idiots.

But for the sake of argument let's take a fresh look at China's coupled 'solution' another way. By coupling, or fusing the glass envelopes together to form a single lamp, the two ratings of 6500 and 2700 K are then advertised as the 'optimum bi-spectrum grow lamp'. What they have actually achieved under these 'combined forces' however would be 4,500 K lamp with a 45 l/w rating, as published by the mfg's own white sheets instead of an uniform application of a 12 blend phosphor whereby 85 l/w or 166.5 vel/w is achieved with the Inda-Gro lamps which probably accounts for them being a bit more expensive. I suppose that's a run on sentence.

Lastly the Chinese have given these fixtures an IP65 rating (enclosed in glass) as it's usually sold as a tunnel light where ambient air circulating over the driver will remove any heat off of the housing before it can bake the mosfets (usual failure) inside the housing. When is the last time you purposely installed any IP65 outdoor rated fixture in a 7 day 12/12 cycle grow room?

IMO unless you thoroughly enjoy dealing with China for a warranty of the failed driver which they'll ultimately tell you is not covered under their thermal management exclusion (oh you didn't remove the glass?) then just go with an Inda-Gro as they price out about the same as the China direct and if any repairs are ever needed they do them in San Diego under the warranty.

I feel better now but I better get back to work or plants will become my full time job.

Chaz,
Thanks for your informative reply. I think colour K may be a little under rated along with the fact that it has not been fully interpreted. I believe that I have read how different colour K can effect different nutrient uptake. For a while there, LED were claiming that they could dial into the specific nm wavelengths required and confirmed by most to be the ultimate frequencies (Specific nm Red and Blue). Now that has been disproved over and over by the fact that the single wavelenght LED simply did not work. Now you have multi spectrum arrays that are evolving and becomming better each generation with additional frequencies, now involving Red, far red infa red etc) My stance? I believe that when we can mimmick the sun, that will be most benificial. Im sure each colour would be used at some point by the plant no matter how small, it would still be benificial in one way or another.

They vegged for ~3 weeks while I tried to wait for one last stubborn clone to root and tried to give her a couple days of 18/6.

Lamps are the pro series 400W from inda-gro.com

No idea how to answer that question, I'm just a gardener with a little bit of engineering background If Chaz' response to K rating wasn't enough for you, you'd have to contact one of the manufacturers about that. I asked about lumen depreciation over time, and while these bulbs will last 10+ years, you will start to notice about a 5% decay after 6-7 years I was told. Fine by me!

Solcielo,
I have sent off an email asking the relevant questions to the manufacturer. Keep us posted on the progress. Looking forward to your updates.