HPA Without An Accumulator

[rosecitypapa]

I think you misunderstood. A females' hormones change radically in bloom. During this time there is a huge increase in P-K, and therefore increased waste which is released via the roots. This waste significantly raises the pH and the ppms of the runoff. Recirculate at your own peril.

I always thought that the increase in ppms was due to the uptake of water thus increasing the concentration of nutrients within the solution. Are you saying that as the plant desires an increase in P and K, it metabolizes it and then releases a form of waste P and K?

 

[PetFlora]

Look at what the ppms of NPK of veg nutes are on average (300-600), then look at what the NPK during flower is (800-1000). Although the plant needs a lot more PK during flower production, it can only use so much. also the more it eats the more waste it creates. That waste is toxic compared to the pH/ppms of bloom nutes required. I hope this answers it for you as I am out of ideas on how to convey it.

 

[pounce]

PetFlora,

I don't grow the same things as you guys, but let me share some things that might help you along.

You seem to be resisting an accumulator. If you are going to run low high pressure (I run 1000psi) say less than 125 psi going to an accumulator can really help you scale your system and keep the pressure high. Also, that pump doesn't handle the low flow rate you have it at very well.

Consider a few things. Your simple system is switching the pump on and off to spray. It might be better to grab some solenoids off ebay (24vac) along with an accumulator (a stainless one is about 200). Rig this up with a manifold with a solenoid at each container.

There are a few low cost controllers on the market to control 24vac (or even DC or 120vac) solenoids using relays. You can very easily set this up so that only one solenoid is open at a time thus giving you instant best pressure at each container. Since you can time the firing of the solenoid you can also put some delays in there to give the accumulator time to normalize. You can put a variable pressure switch on the pump to keep the accumulator in the range you want it.

Taking that approach a very efficient low high pressure system can scale to multiple separate containers very easily.

Since I am running 1000psi I have some expensive solenoids (actually 120v). I think if you are running municipal pressure off a pump designed for RV's and whatnot you may actually be able to use irrigation solenoids found at Home Depot or Lowes. These are 24vac. Just don't get ones that are latching since this will complicate your wiring with needing to switch to reverse polarity. I think the Orbit or Rainbird solenoids are about $12.

If you mount the mist heads right after the solenoid you can save pressure in the system. With your mist head rating and timing you can actually calculate how long you might be able to run off the accumulator before the pump kicks in. Another trick if you have too wide of a range in your pressure switch is to add another solenoid that can be fired wide open to a drain or back into your source container to get the pump to kick in and go back to full pressure. You can adjust your controller timing to make something like that work.

I realize you are perhaps trying to keep costs down since this is a small operation. Just wanted to toss some ideas out to you and the other lurkers.

 

[PetFlora]

Pounce All good info but this journal is about trying to get close to what an accumulator does without adding all that complexity. Hence the name HPA without an Accumulator. That said, feel free to post some pics of plant and roots in mid bloom.

 

[pounce]

Pounce All good info but this journal is about trying to get close to what an accumulator does without adding all that complexity. Hence the name HPA without an Accumulator. That said, feel free to post some pics of plant and roots in mid bloom.

As mentioned. I don't grow what you guys grow so I think it would be a bit boring for you guys

What's so complex about an accumulator? Not seeing the issue. You end up having more complexity without one from what I am seeing.

 

[PetFlora]

Pounce: OK you are starting to piss me off now. Any 'problems' with these girls was not for lack of an Accumulator. For the last time look at the title. Get with it, or leave.

 

[pounce]

Pounce: OK you are starting to piss me off now. Any 'problems' with these girls was not for lack of an Accumulator. For the last time look at the title. Get with it, or leave.

Are you able to articulate the reason for not using an accumulator?

You have a serious attitude problem. Challenging you on not using an accumulator is healthy discussion and on topic. You don't need to lash out at people. I see you do this all over the places. Forums, blogs etc. I'm not taking it personally because I see you do it to anyone...but I don't think you are going to make many friends. Don't you want strangers offering advice even if you don't care for some of it? It wouldn't kill you to be decent.

BTW: My reference to complexity had nothing to do with the outcome of your crop. You made that assumption. I'm speaking of being able to perfectly recreate short mist timings. Your pressure is inconsistent and low. If you regulated the pressure with an accumulator you remove variables making experimenting with timing etc more stable.

 

[PetFlora]

I would PM you but you haven't been here long enough. I asked the moderator to remove your posts and my responses to them.

Somehow, you keep pushing an accumulator when I made it clear to you that this journal is about NOT using an accumulator. The title says it, and I have said it in response to you once already. That you think I am the problem is laughable. Please refrain from posting in MY journal. But by all means start your own.

 

[pounce]

I would PM you but you haven't been here long enough. I asked the moderator to remove your posts and my responses to them.

No problem. I haven't violated any terms. If they chose to remove them that's their business. I'd call it censorship, but since this isn't a democracy it's their choice.

Somehow, you keep pushing an accumulator when I made it clear to you that this journal is about NOT using an accumulator. The title says it, and I have said it in response to you once already. That you think I am the problem is laughable. Please refrain from posting in MY journal. But by all means start your own.

This is a discussion forum. I think you might be confused on where you have posted.You posted so in a way you really can't control what people ask you. My questions and posts are on topic.

Can you articulate the value of running without an Accumulator? For you is it only cost savings or are you communicating to others that you are not using an accumulator on purpose because it adds some value?

 

[PetFlora]

Mine is a journal with a specific purpose. As such, it invites questions and dialog specific to the journal's purpose. You fail to understand that. If you want to extol the virtues of using an accumulator, RUI will welcome it, as would I.

 

[pounce]

Mine is a journal with a specific purpose. As such, it invites questions and dialog specific to the journal's purpose. You fail to understand that. If you want to extol the virtues of using an accumulator, RUI will welcome it, as would I.

Except its not a Journal. You posted in a discussion forum.

Can you articulate the value of running without an Accumulator? For you is it only cost savings or are you communicating to others that you are not using an accumulator on purpose because it adds some value?

 

[PetFlora]

Pounce: Sure. I am a personal use grower-2-4 plants will last me a year. I had previously grown in soil but decided to up my game. I started with a drip system, but it kept clogging up and used way too many nutes. I switched to 'pond fogger' which I found does not work for growing on a number of levels. I then switched to low pressure and those mist heads kept clogging. I kept searching here and came across Pod Racers thread which is some 5-10 years old. The guys developing the TAG journal were all doing large tables; they dismissed the need for an accumulator, though it probably had to do with not knowing how to dial it in, and that they were preoccupied getting the basics down. Their results inspired me. I was doing a journal TAG 2.0 when Me2 began chiming in with important tips. He noted that my feed time was too long using a 15 minute timer. At this time I was using mist heads that were ok, but eventually found Reptile Basics.

I tried the timer they sell (DnE?), but it did not go below 8 seconds. My grow improved incredibly. Me2 mentioned that my roots had no lateral roots or root hairs and that I would need a deep cycle timer (he too uses an accumulator). I invested in a Sentinel MDT-1 timer. I did not know at the time that it was not accurate at a one second setting. To date, I am very happy with my results which blow away any other method I tried.

I never said I couldn't get better results with an accum set up, but seriously, how much more can I yield? No one has answered that question. Let's hypothetically say 15%, even 20%. To me it doesn't justify the investment. hth

 

[Bob Smith]

Petflora, without knowing how much you're actually feeding or the specific micron sizes your pump is producing, it's really impossible for someone to pull a number out of their ass and tell you "how much more" you could be yielding if you actually ran consistent, high pressure aeroponics.

Hell, even if someone had all the variables I mention in the first sentence, they couldn't tell you - it's an art, not a science.

The one thing that no one doubts, however, is that you would yield more (and in a more efficient manner) by using an accumulator and being able to dial in your feed times and droplet sizes.

Pounce, I (and others) think that it's not really HPA without being able to control droplet sizes and feed cycles to a fairly precise degree, but that's certainly debatable, and there's no doubt that a pump hooked up to a timer is less complex (although possibly more prone to failure due to pump short cycling) than a proper accumulator setup - it works for Pet, he's happy with it, no need to beat that dead horse any more.

For people reading this journal, do your own research and you can decide if an accumulator setup is right for your specific setup or not............now, back to the Pet grow show.

 

[PetFlora]

Bob, thanks for chiming in. I am willing to concede whether it's HPA, but it was what it was called when I learned about it. Time marches on.

And I agree, there is no real way to tell how much better true HPA is unless, someone did a side by side. We use the same pump, and similar mist heads. But I am happy with my results, so I don't see the need to further complicate my grow.

I would love to see some pics of roots and plants in mid grow

 

[PetFlora]

It's a bummer, man. My biggest plant turned all hermie on me. It has been removed from the ~ HPA room.

Although I have nice lateral root development, there is no root hairs. I know this is a function of being too wet.

Here's my question... what is a rough guide to pause time when my feed time ~ 2 seconds?

I was running 1:55 as the big plant wilted when I increased it above that. Today, I increased to 2:10 and the leaves perked up (not that they were wilted mind you) but within an hour are now reaching for the sky. Clearly they are happy campers. But what should I push to?

 

[PetFlora]

For the past week, I have been struggling to find the right feed/pause cycle working with 2 seconds and varying the pause from 2:05 all the way up to 2:45. The best response from the plant is 2 on/2:05 pause, but the roots were not developing root hairs. Longer times caused the leafs to droop. I decided to add one second of on time.

I came across a link to my previous grow journal on another site and decided to read it through. It's hilarious to look at all the trial and error mistakes I was making. Lots of people contributed on it, and one in particular offered excellent guidance. On that grow I was using 4 heads/18G tote until Me2 did the math and said I only needed 2 heads. Somehow I completely forgot this and have been trying to make the magic with one head. And I did wind up with root hairs.

Within one hour of using the 2 head mister the plant top burst to life- photo tomorrow- of course it will take a few days before I can expect any root hairs, but it should happen now.

I still have to dial in the pause time, which is tomorrows project.

 

[PetFlora]

Finally pistils are packing. I thought I had a hermie, turns out it's all male. So my question is can I cross m/f from same seed stock?


Lonely Lady Budding Nicely

A Close Up


Horny Male has excellent traits. Can I use his pollen on his sister?

 

[Bob Smith]

Bob, thanks for chiming in. I am willing to concede whether it's HPA, but it was what it was called when I learned about it. Time marches on.

And I agree, there is no real way to tell how much better true HPA is unless, someone did a side by side. We use the same pump, and similar mist heads. But I am happy with my results, so I don't see the need to further complicate my grow.

I would love to see some pics of roots and plants in mid grow

Here's an update from my journal at another site:

Had some issues and kinks to work out with the system at first - really, really would've been totally avoided if I would've used aero clones (roots reach into the column) and not clones rooted in pucks - fucking EZ Clone - had a few dry out and die on me (have been replaced), but it also means that the plants in the 4" wyes (closest to the misters) are much larger than the others because they've been growing since day 1, as opposed to some which just started growing a few days ago.

Current misting times are ~6 seconds every 75 seconds to make sure that all plants are getting sufficient moisture, and that means that the larger plants are getting overwatered (in HP terms) and their roots look more like LP aero roots - as soon as all plants have a sufficient root system, gonna cut that back to 2 or 3 seconds every 2 or 3 minutes.

 

[PetFlora]

Nothing exceptional to report. I am harvesting pollen to use on some lower branches. Also gearing up for my next grow. Seedlings are doing well- roots especially. I will be getting them out of the bubbler today.

 

[PetFlora]

Photo update: Miss Lonely is packing on the pistils, trics and calyxes. Probably 2-3 more weeks. Her roots are brown due to adding Neptune Harvest Seaweed Plant Food (0-0-1). Also, her smallish roots are the result of me being extremely sick for 2 weeks during early veg, and not being able to care for the plants. Most people would have given her up for dead, but HPA is capable of resurrecting the near dead, and here she is.