Layoffs coming...

abandonconflict

Well-Known Member
I demand nothing, least of all anything slavish and I despise anything having to do with adherence. I say question all dogma.

Just because I consider free market libertarianism to be inconsistent with true anarchy does not mean I wish to tell others how to live. This is why I sound vague, you must have a hard time with the idea that you are not told how to live. You seem to need to be told how things will work. You figure that out for yourself, I am just pointing out which power structures ought to be questioned critically.
 

Moses Mobetta

Well-Known Member
Question everything . Too much bs out there . Too many followers that will believe anything . It seems to me it's all about the money . People will say anything to gain financially . Truth and honesty are a thing of the past . It's all about greed these days .
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
I demand nothing, least of all anything slavish and I despise anything having to do with adherence. I say question all dogma.

Just because I consider free market libertarianism to be inconsistent with true anarchy does not mean I wish to tell others how to live. This is why I sound vague, you must have a hard time with the idea that you are not told how to live. You seem to need to be told how things will work. You figure that out for yourself, I am just pointing out which power structures ought to be questioned critically.
no. you propose a "solution" with no explanation of how it would possibly work, then deny the very essence of that 'solution" with your next breath while still insisting it is the solution.

crying out "I Have The Answer!" should not be followed by "Now you figure it out for me"

ypur proposed "philosophy" is ill defined and vague, yet you insist that all characteristics that may be attributed to it are WRONG while never explaining what characteristics it actually is supposed to possess, beyond the nebulous "no authority (but all Means of Production are collectivized), no government (but collectives are "organized"), no free markets (but you can buy and sell with your awesome non wage wages), no private property (except for some private property)" and no details

thats not a political philosophy, it's not even a political theory, its not even an idea.

It's a fat man in a red suit who brings presents to the good little girls and boys from his magic workshop at the north pole.

once you explain how the "system" you espouse is presumed to work then it can be discussed as if it were reasonable, rational or even plausible. until then youre just talking about Santa Claus.
 

deprave

New Member
Just because I consider free market libertarianism to be inconsistent with true anarchy does not mean I wish to tell others how to live.
I know the argument but ...yea it kinda of does...free market would let you share land/business on the other hand forced sharing land/business would not allow free market property rights to exist. So you would be telling others how to live more than free market. You want means of production to be shared in free market? you may, its called a business plan, have at it.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
so, unions are akin to nazis (notice how there is no need for an apostrophe, clawfoot) and slave drivers?

you need some perspective, sistah.
Big fucking whoop. I drank too much wine and added an extra '. You notice I didn't do it with Romans right after that, right? You know Nazi is supposed to be capitalized, right? OMG.. YOU KILLED JESUS. I win the argument.

Unfortunately for you, it doesn't work that way. I never called the Union people Nazis. My point was that doing something wrong (destroying private property rights) to accomplish something good (everyone living better) is still wrong. You knew that though, and went on to attack me with silliness instead. You need to stop watching political debates - this is what you have learned there.

What is clawfoot? Are you suggesting .......

 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
yes, i believed you made this point when you argued in favor of segregation and keeping blacks out of certain businesses.

i mean, they could have just bought some land somewhere else where they wouldn't have been made to sit on the back of the bus! that one was priceless.

the fact is that your insane, rawnpawlian view of property rights did harm others. that is a fact. it is historically documented.

yet you dust off this failed old argument, and repackage it like some bundle of "potato style imitation crisps" and sell it to some min wage walmart chump.

jesus fucking christ, can't you see that your retarded philosophy has been roundly rejected?

You done good here. How many fallacies are there? Lets find out...

Begging the question
Genetic fallacy
Red Herring
Straw Man
Ad Hominem
Appeal to the popular

I am sure there are many more in there and maybe I named them wrong, but my hats off to you for making a single paragraph contain so many.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Noam motherfucking Chomsky. multiple sources making the same nebulous assertions as if they all read the back of the same cereal bbox is NOT an argument from a position of strength. I do not lionize Chomsky, and therefore he does not convince me with the power of his prestige and fame.

hittin up memgenerator and finding some shitty image macro with Ayn Rand on it does not argue for your position either. if you ever read Ayn Rand you didnt understand it, and thats ok, lotta people are too thick to get it.
Noam Chomsky: "Libertarian means Authoritarian in America because America is so Perverse." he then conflates a business (large ones , and presumably small ones as well, but of course he never says...) with government, implying that the businesses are MORE authoritarian and autocratic because they have no accountability. However, participation in commerce with a business, large or small, as an employee, a supplier, a customer, or an investor is VOLUNTARY. If Noam doesnt like Burger King he can go to Macdonalds. If he doesn't like ADM he can buy a farm and grow his own wheat corn carrots and apples. Or he may find a supplier who is not run by ADM (local small farms abound still) If he chooses not to shop for clothing at the GAP the can still hit up Old Navy, or like Ghandi,, weave his own cloth from cotton he grew himself. At NO point does a business compell you to engage in commerce with them,, untill they get in bed with government. Noam does not,, at any mpoint in this video, object to Crony Capitalism, he objects to Capitalism. His long winded and poorly thought out whingeing NEVER explains how he would actually BE a "Libertarian Socialist" or even what one is. He, Just as YOU your wiki-page, and all the other sources espousing this "idea",, simply says "Well it isn't an oxymoron..." and leaves it at that.

philosophies are not defined by how they differ from other philosophies, ideas and ideologies, they are defined by an internally consistant and logical framework. Chomsky, the wiki-editors, the essayists, spooner, and all the rest never get down to defining their supposed philosophy, they spend all their time defending it,, and saying it ISN'T <insert logical component which you view as negative here> while completely failing to say what it IS.

Trying to be the Santa Claus of political movements, who knows what everyone wants,m and prepares a special present for each good little boy and girls as long as they adopt a Mutualist and Collectivist Social Policy, and claimto be Libertarians is never gonna work. eventually you will have to take a solid position or you are simply farting in the wind.

Actual Libertarianism: the freedom to do what one wishes with their Time Money Property and Life, without interference, and without interfering with others.
Orwellian Newspeak Libertarianism: forced collectivism, forced socialism, and control of your life from cradle to grave by government mandate.

Actual Anarchy: a complete breakdown of civil order. lawlessness. elimination of all societal controls, and a reversion to the basest instincts.
Middle School Counterculture Rebel Anarchy: utopian universal communism.

Actual Socialism: control by The State of the means of production, as well as all real property, all resources, all labour and all people. see North Korea
Wooly Headed New Left Socialism: utopian universal communism.

Words either have a meaning, which can be understood and accepted by all sides as the basis for rational argument, or language is useless and we should just bash each other with clubs until one side falls down. (advantage: me)
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
... If Noam doesnt like Burger King he can go to Macdonalds. If he doesn't like ADM he can buy a farm and grow his own wheat corn carrots and apples. Or he may find a supplier who is not run by ADM (local small farms abound still) If he chooses not to shop for clothing at the GAP the can still hit up Old Navy, or like Ghandi,, weave his own cloth from cotton he grew himself.
The Burger King and Gap examples are reasonable, because it involves a reasonable effort for the consumer to switch and get a product of comparable quality and utility.
But the ADM and Gandhi examples are not reasonable. Much effort must be expended with no guarantee of the product's quality.
Monopoly is a real force in human affairs, and its existence and robustness is a twig in the craw of the laissez-faire utopians.

At NO point does a business compel you to engage in commerce with them
This is true ... how? It seems an imposition of theory on a world that has been shown to work very differently. Wal-Mart is a classic example with their predatory pricing tactics. They WANT to be the only game in town and they destroy small independent local businesses to achieve this. If I want half my household items ... and don't want to drive 45 miles to the nearest competitor, I am Wal-Mart's captive. Witness the free market, red in tooth and claw. cn
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
The Burger King and Gap examples are reasonable, because it involves a reasonable effort for the consumer to switch and get a product of comparable quality and utility.
But the ADM and Gandhi examples are not reasonable. Much effort must be expended with no guarantee of the product's quality.
Monopoly is a real force in human affairs, and its existence and robustness is a twig in the craw of the laissez-faire utopians.
the goodness of his weaving is his personal problem, if he really wants good cloth then he can
A: Become a better weaver
B: Employ a weaver as his personal retainer
C: find a weaver he likes and buy their cloth retail
D: suck it up and go to a fabric store.
a monopoly can only hold with the force of government behind it, either by Patents, Taxation, Regulation or Corruption, or with the government's acquiescence by inaction when your competitor burns down your mill and the sheriff does nothing. the unreasoning fear of monopolies is not rational, since they have always existed to one degree or another and always will. In my city, you cannot own a home within the city limits if you are not hooked up to the local electrical utility (a government administered monopoly) This is also true of the local water monopoly, and the garbage/sewer service. these mandates all have "good reasons" behind them, but this does not change their nature. they are still coercive monopolies which in participation is Mandated for all, regardless of your solar power system, your private well, or your passionate and nearly neurotic love of ecology and recycling (like Ed Begley Jr who only creates 16 ounces of "garbage" a month).

This is true ... how? It seems an imposition of theory on a world that has been shown to work very differently. Wal-Mart is a classic example with their predatory pricing tactics. They WANT to be the only game in town and they destroy small independent local businesses to achieve this. If I want half my household items ... and don't want to drive 45 miles to the nearest competitor, I am Wal-Mart's captive. Witness the free market, red in tooth and claw. cn
i havent bought anything from wal-mart in 5 years. theres always options other than wal-mart, no matter how hard they try.
youll hear no defense of wal-mart's business practices from me, but they are not THAT pervasive.
and nobody ever said you MUST buy consumer goods. my grandfather never shopped at a wal-mart in his life since he died in 1990 before the first wal-mart opened in california. (ohh my, cause and effect! he died because he couldnt get to a wal-mart! not because he was almost 100 :eyesmoke:)
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
probably owned by a black person who is too lazy to buy their own land somewhere where they won't have to sit on the back of the bus.
Me and you have this dance:) I say something that makes a point, and you say something that has nothing to do with it as a personal attack on me. Personally, it gives me an erection every time.
 

Carthoris

Well-Known Member
Noam Chomsky: "Libertarian means Authoritarian in America because America is so Perverse." he then conflates a business (large ones , and presumably small ones as well, but of course he never says...) with government, implying that the businesses are MORE authoritarian and autocratic because they have no accountability. However, participation in commerce with a business, large or small, as an employee, a supplier, a customer, or an investor is VOLUNTARY. If Noam doesnt like Burger King he can go to Macdonalds. If he doesn't like ADM he can buy a farm and grow his own wheat corn carrots and apples. Or he may find a supplier who is not run by ADM (local small farms abound still) If he chooses not to shop for clothing at the GAP the can still hit up Old Navy, or like Ghandi,, weave his own cloth from cotton he grew himself. At NO point does a business compell you to engage in commerce with them,, untill they get in bed with government. Noam does not,, at any mpoint in this video, object to Crony Capitalism, he objects to Capitalism. His long winded and poorly thought out whingeing NEVER explains how he would actually BE a "Libertarian Socialist" or even what one is. He, Just as YOU your wiki-page, and all the other sources espousing this "idea",, simply says "Well it isn't an oxymoron..." and leaves it at that.

philosophies are not defined by how they differ from other philosophies, ideas and ideologies, they are defined by an internally consistant and logical framework. Chomsky, the wiki-editors, the essayists, spooner, and all the rest never get down to defining their supposed philosophy, they spend all their time defending it,, and saying it ISN'T <insert logical component which you view as negative here> while completely failing to say what it IS.

Trying to be the Santa Claus of political movements, who knows what everyone wants,m and prepares a special present for each good little boy and girls as long as they adopt a Mutualist and Collectivist Social Policy, and claimto be Libertarians is never gonna work. eventually you will have to take a solid position or you are simply farting in the wind.

Actual Libertarianism: the freedom to do what one wishes with their Time Money Property and Life, without interference, and without interfering with others.
Orwellian Newspeak Libertarianism: forced collectivism, forced socialism, and control of your life from cradle to grave by government mandate.

Actual Anarchy: a complete breakdown of civil order. lawlessness. elimination of all societal controls, and a reversion to the basest instincts.
Middle School Counterculture Rebel Anarchy: utopian universal communism.

Actual Socialism: control by The State of the means of production, as well as all real property, all resources, all labour and all people. see North Korea
Wooly Headed New Left Socialism: utopian universal communism.

Words either have a meaning, which can be understood and accepted by all sides as the basis for rational argument, or language is useless and we should just bash each other with clubs until one side falls down. (advantage: me)
(holds the +6 club of destiny) Let the melee begin!
 
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