My Girls are turning Yellow?

BenFranklin

Well-Known Member
Nah... I'm not biased am I? *blush*

Hehehe, I learned from all my mistakes with soil, to go hydro.. LOL!

It's just that from my own terrible experience with soil and the "half way to hydro" methods... and all my own failures, before finally attempting hydro and seeing how easy it really was and how much yield I got with the right variety..... I have a hard time advocating wasting time with anything else for indoors...

Although every now and then I have it in the back of my mind to do a 5 gallon organic soil grow and probably will.. Last time I did a soil grow, I used Miracle grow from frickin wally-world and ended up getting a massive mite infestation. In the end, I said screw it, threw everything out, went down to the Local garden store and ran into the coolest old guy who is/was an expert hydro-grower and shop keeper, who convinced me to buy a single Hydro-farm bucket system and just follow the directions..

First time out, was absolute success and it's been non-stop for over 4 years now, after the 1 bucket, I figured out how they worked, I run all my own homemade jobbies now, except I eliminated the stupid drip system and just run DWC with air stones and pumps. NO muss, no fuss..
 

somebody1701

Well-Known Member
Have either of you ever grown in coco? I suspect not because it's by far the simplest, cheapest, most productive growing technique there is for a small, personal grow.

You can go organic or chemical. Either way, it's dead simple. It's almost impossible to overwater, you don't need ppm or ph pens, and the results are kick-ass. It's also great for cloning. You can re-use the coco (I'm on my fourth grow with the same material).
 

jackmac

Active Member
Have either of you ever grown in coco? I suspect not because it's by far the simplest, cheapest, most productive growing technique there is for a small, personal grow.

You can go organic or chemical. Either way, it's dead simple. It's almost impossible to overwater, you don't need ppm or ph pens, and the results are kick-ass. It's also great for cloning. You can re-use the coco (I'm on my fourth grow with the same material).
I was doing comparison tests with coir when it first hit the mass horticultural market about thirty years ago - so I've done my homework on that one. I don't doubt what you say one bit - but we're all different - and you and Ben have obviously learned the ropes and refined your own ways over time and experience - and it's what everyone should do.
Every case is different, but it (the op's deal) just looks like a bit of a mix up to me, and my advice to the op is to simplify it. Add to that (and this goes for anyone, newbie, intermediate or pro) reading from proper scientific research and professional material will have you always learning....and that can only help -

Cheers guys
 

BenFranklin

Well-Known Member
I've not used coco ever. I was warned away from it by more experienced growers than myself at that time. So, I never ventured down that path of trial and error.

However, if you look above, I did say that coir would EXCEL using it in a PASSIVE hydroponic system and briefly explained the difference between PASSIVE and ACTIVE hydroponic systems, and advoc ated passive hydroponic systems for people who are out of town a lot, as was recommended by the pseudonymed author, Jorge Cervantes, and further yet still, then went on to explain my own preferences.

By the way, just so you are made aware, of another option and possibility is the use of hydroton, it is completely reusable, and it is extremely cheap, I can rinse it out and reuse it, or I can throw it in my vegetable or flower garden after I get done to help with drainage.

The only issue with it, is it's round, so when you spill a pot of it, it goes all over the place and likes to roll a lot.
 

kinddiesel

Well-Known Member
burn baby burn, never feed those small plant nutes if you do feed 1/4 strenth at the most, until thare at lease 7 or 8 inches tall then can start pumping full strenth! and still might have small amounts of nut burn . flush it it correct ph water and feed them 1/4 for now it will be ok they yellow leaves might recover . ive done this my personal self trying to speed up veg when greed kicks in lol
 

jackmac

Active Member
burn baby burn, never feed those small plant nutes if you do feed 1/4 strenth at the most, until thare at lease 7 or 8 inches tall then can start pumping full strenth! and still might have small amounts of nut burn . flush it it correct ph water and feed them 1/4 for now it will be ok they yellow leaves might recover . ive done this my personal self trying to speed up veg when greed kicks in lol

Oh god, did you actually read the thread? He has to feed them - they're in coir ffs! They can't exactly take themselves off to the chinese takeaway when they need to eat, can they?
 

cheechako

Well-Known Member
You planted your plants in the wrong medium, it's that simple.
I was doing comparison tests with coir when it first hit the mass horticultural market about thirty years ago - so I've done my homework on that one. I don't doubt what you say one bit - but we're all different - and you and Ben have obviously learned the ropes and refined your own ways over time and experience - and it's what everyone should do.
Every case is different, but it (the op's deal) just looks like a bit of a mix up to me, and my advice to the op is to simplify it.
1) Crappy answer.
2) Helpful answer.

Coco coir is not wrong - if you do it right. Now it may not be the best medium, but that still doesn't make it wrong. The many examples of successful coco grows seem to add more evidence that it is not wrong. Personally, I went with it because AFAIK it may be more forgiving that soil in certain ways (harder to over-water, easier to flush if I mess up nutes) and seemed like a pre-training for true hydro.

And thank you, Ben, for trying to explain why one medium works for one method but might not be the best choice for another method and the difference between passive and active hydro. IMO, that helps us newbies more than saying, "You're wrong, I'm right."
 

Moebius

Well-Known Member
Guide to growing with Coco - by House&Garden


Coco coir is the outside layer of husk that surrounds the shell of the coconut. After coconuts are harvested, the fibrous husk is removed from the coconut seed. From this husk, three main horticultural coir products can be produced: coir chips, coir fiber or coir pith/dust. Coir dust retains water well while the fibers and chips help with air space and drainage.

There are many brands and types of coco coir available on the market. We recommend that you use only buffered coir products, as coco coir naturally contains a lot of sodium ions that cling to the coco coir like a magnet. The buffering process involves pre-soaking with a buffering solution high in calcium, which displaces the sodium and balances the naturally occurring potassium. After the soaking period the media is washed with water, which removes the displaced sodium, leaving the calcium in the coir. This buffering process prevents unwanted draw down or ‘lockout’ of calcium and magnesium, and avoids sodium toxicity issues. These selections of coir products are made from high quality coconuts and use unique buffering processes to ensure the health of your crop.


10 Benefits of Coco:


  • Promotes strong root growth and plant vigor.
  • Coco coir is completely environmentally friendly.
  • Encourages beneficial bacteria and discourages harmful bacteria.
  • It is a 100% renewable resource
  • Coco has an ideal pH range of 6.0-6.8.
  • Coco coir never shrinks, cracks or produces crust
  • High lingin and cellulose content
  • Coco coir is odorless, pleasant to handle, and uniform in composition.
  • Coir has a high cation exchange, meaning it can store unused minerals to be released to the plant as and when it requires it.
  • Contains significant amounts of phosphorous (10-50ppm) and potassium (150-450 ppm).


Coco coir has many unique physical and chemical properties that actually make typical hydroponic nutrients less than ideal. This is because coco coir growing media interacts with nutrients and holds onto calcium and magnesium while slowly releasing potassium and nitrogen instead. For this reason there are several nutrients that are specifically formulated with the coco coir’s unique characteristics in mind. These formulas contain far less potassium, less sulfate, more calcium, and more magnesium than their standard grow and bloom counterparts. By using a nutrient specifically formulated for the coir-based system, such as House & Garden’s Cocos A+B, you are ensuring that your plants are receiving the best possible nutrition package. Only high quality coco coir nutrients will ensure that your plants receive the nutrients and elements they require for strong and healthy growth.
Furthermore, coconuts are naturally high in compounds called lignins. This compound is able to help encourage the development of beneficial bacteria, which makes it less likely for harmful bacteria to invade your system. This also means that if you choose to use a hydroponic supplement that contains beneficial microbes, they are more likely to grow, thrive, and benefit your system. These organisms, such as bacillus, mycorrhizae and trichoderma all form symbiotic relationships with the plant that can increase overall performance and yield. Bacillus is used world wide for the control of insect pests and opportunistic fungi pathogens. Mycorrhizae are beneficial fungi that colonize the root surface, helping the plant take up nutrients.
Many forms of coco coir also contain trichoderma and if a healthy root environment is maintained, the bacteria will continue to colonize the roots and multiply in the growing media. Trichoderma works in symbiosis with plant roots to protect them from pathogenic fungi such as pythium or fusarium. These characteristics can boost yields by decreasing disease organisms. Since Trichoderma grow and proliferate best when there are abundant healthy roots, they have evolved numerous mechanisms for both attack of other fungi and for enhancing plant and root growth. As coco coir is a natural habitat for trichoderma, it provides an ideal environment for trichoderma to thrive.


When using beneficial microbes, always use reverse osmosis (RO) water, which removes harmful chemicals that can kill the beneficial microorganisms. Tap water often contains chlorine and chloramine to kill harmful biologicals. Unfortunately this indiscriminately kills beneficial bacteria. Reverse osmosis units can remove up to 99.9% of tap water impurities including phosphate, nitrate, minerals, and heavy metals for contaminant-free water. Your beneficial microorganisms will thrive and be at their healthiest population by removing these harmful substances.

However, reverse osmosis water is so pure that it is depleted of essential trace elements and minerals, which must be added back to the nutrient solution. Furthermore, calcium and magnesium are both naturally attracted to bind to coco coir, causing them to become unavailable to plants. To compensate for this, it is important that you add some form of a calcium/magnesium supplement to your nutrient solution, especially if you are using reverse osmosis water.
Coco coir is an ideal medium for encouraging roots to develop to their full potential due to its high levels of aeration, naturally occurring trichoderma and remarkable drainage properties. Its high buffer capacity also assures that coco coir will hold and release nutrients over extended periods of time, optimizing plant growth.


http://www.house-garden.us/articles/...owing-in-coco/

 

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
In case you didn't know you can also reuse your coco/perlite mix. Just make sure you purge the stuff well. I usually let mine sit overnight in a h2o2 dilution and then rinse the fuck out of it the next day before reusing. No reason to be bringing in new bags of coco every grow.
 

BenFranklin

Well-Known Member
I only use straight tap water, in fact, after reading Jorge Cervantes a while back, it was written that chlorine can help strengthen seedlings a little bit, that Chlorine is an element that weed uses to help strengthen roots and stems.(if i recall right)
 

DrUgZrBaD

Well-Known Member
You have to get your temps down. Also, you may need to supplement calmag. Until you get your temps under control, it's going to be hard to tell what to do IMO.


Im thinking maybe a 500btu ac will drop is 5-10 degrees. his tents 64sq" and a 40,000 btu willl do about a 1000sqFT

(BTW my calculations i think have a delta tee of 22C. I dont do ac only heating. I imagine the calculations no different heat loss is heat loss and im really fucked up now so if this made no sense ill fix it tomororow
 

DrUgZrBaD

Well-Known Member
I only use straight tap water, in fact, after reading Jorge Cervantes a while back, it was written that chlorine can help strengthen seedlings a little bit, that Chlorine is an element that weed uses to help strengthen roots and stems.(if i recall right)
I don't think so, chlorine isn't even good for us to drink. I think you mean chloroform (I know its not right its some plant savvy word)
 

BenFranklin

Well-Known Member
Heh, OH... OK, I didn't read it directly out of Jorge Cervantes book then.....

MY mistake.. :clap:

Actually... after doing a little bit more research... Chloride is a trace element used by marijuana to strengthen leaf structure. A Chlorine deficiency will give your leaves an "over all bronze look". SO I did recall correctly.

Chloride deficiencies are more likely to occur in systems that use R/O water or Distilled water, or plants that are grown outdoors.

Being a trace element. you don't need a whole heck of a lot to "over do it" and like anything, to much will kill it.
 

jackmac

Active Member
1) Crappy answer.
2) Helpful answer.

Coco coir is not wrong - if you do it right. Now it may not be the best medium, but that still doesn't make it wrong. The many examples of successful coco grows seem to add more evidence that it is not wrong. Personally, I went with it because AFAIK it may be more forgiving that soil in certain ways (harder to over-water, easier to flush if I mess up nutes) and seemed like a pre-training for true hydro.

And thank you, Ben, for trying to explain why one medium works for one method but might not be the best choice for another method and the difference between passive and active hydro. IMO, that helps us newbies more than saying, "You're wrong, I'm right."
If you take things out of context, it's easy to twist. I like your post, but don't think that was a 'crappy answer'. I've given sound reasons that qualify what I said.

Coco coir isn't wrong, no. But in tests it consistently under performs when set against a more established soil-less medium, sphagnum moss peat (smp). The trouble with coco is that coco is not coco in the same way that smp is smp. There are big variations in the quality of the product, mostly depending on origin. Mexican coco coir is really pretty appalling -and I reckon there's plenty of suppliers of that selling in the US. Sri Lankan coco coir has actually outperformed smp in some trials - so therein lies the problem - that and an ignorant party trying to put it all together before they know what they're supposed to be doing.
 

stonerpaddy

Active Member
If you take things out of context, it's easy to twist. I like your post, but don't think that was a 'crappy answer'. I've given sound reasons that qualify what I said.

Coco coir isn't wrong, no. But in tests it consistently under performs when set against a more established soil-less medium, sphagnum moss peat (smp). The trouble with coco is that coco is not coco in the same way that smp is smp. There are big variations in the quality of the product, mostly depending on origin. Mexican coco coir is really pretty appalling -and I reckon there's plenty of suppliers of that selling in the US. Sri Lankan coco coir has actually outperformed smp in some trials - so therein lies the problem - that and an ignorant party trying to put it all together before they know what they're supposed to be doing.


Those Canna Vega nutes are meant for soil and I think they are very high in N. 2ml/L sounds high as well for the stage their at. Also, 36C is very hot for growing. You really should be aiming for around the 27C mark if you can. Spent a lot of this grow battling 5C myself.
pH of 5.8 is perfect in coco.
What brand of coco you using. There seems to be a big gap in quality among the different coco brands.
I would say it's a pH issue and probably best to flush. Gives you a good place to start from.
When flushing keep pH 5.8 and an EC of 0.6 if you have an EC meter.
I asked that in my first post. It's a little sad that we are still here arguing about this because the OP never bothered coming back...
 

cheechako

Well-Known Member
If you take things out of context, it's easy to twist.
OK, then... your complete post:

I'm not going to get into an argument over this, but 5.8 is roughly the ph of coir - coir is a product, like moss peat, that has no nutritional value - it's all about texture and water retention. You planted your plants in the wrong medium, it's that simple. If this was a hydro grow, which it isn't, then yes 5.8 would be pretty damn good, but this is a soil grow and 5.8 is way too low, 6.5 is optimum for soil growing, but if you put in in the right medium to begin with you wouldn't need to worry about that. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself just read post 4 again and get them in a proper soil growing medium and stop feeding them - or take the above advice, or carry on with what you're doing and watch them die.
1) Crappy answer.

Really - all I get out of that post is the coco is the wrong medium, the a pH of 5.8 is wrong for coco, and that any further attempts to use coco will result in the death of the plants. Dozens or even hundreds of posts, pics, and journals here disagree with that.

Since then, others - including you - have provided more information in this thread about what coco is and is not, why it works for some and not for others, what some of the issues and problems are, and even why it may not be one of the better choices. I appreciate you providing information here since that post instead of leaving it there.
 

jackmac

Active Member
OK, then... your complete post:



1) Crappy answer.

Really - all I get out of that post is the coco is the wrong medium, the a pH of 5.8 is wrong for coco, and that any further attempts to use coco will result in the death of the plants. Dozens or even hundreds of posts, pics, and journals here disagree with that.

Since then, others - including you - have provided more information in this thread about what coco is and is not, why it works for some and not for others, what some of the issues and problems are, and even why it may not be one of the better choices. I appreciate you providing information here since that post instead of leaving it there.
There's more than one post - maybe you haven't read all of them?
 
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