23 Days, Yellowing Fan Leaves
- Thread starter psyte
- Start date
1/2 tsp. of each per gallon...you can feed cal mag plus with your normal feeding schedule, but molasses do maybe 4 times through the grow...molasses is really like a food for your soil. the healthier the microbes and stuff are...the easier it is for them to break down nutrients itno the plants usable form...thus making nutrient uptake readily available. its good stuff to use...read up on it.
psyte
Active Member
I'm not so sure on the cal-mag after checking the label online. The fertilizer I just started already has everything but calcium, although in lower concentrations, but my water is also very hard (I just replaced a bunch of pipes and the buildup was terrible). I definitely like what I've been reading about molasses though. I think it sounds like a great supplement and seems to help a lot with nutrient uptake in general. I'm also very interested in trying more organic nutes so I like it in that regard too.
At this point I'm going to continue on the full strength Jack's classic (in pH adjusted water) and also feed black strap molasses. I'm going to hold off on the other stuff for now because to be honest it's getting to be a bit much and I feel like I'd be going with the shotgun approach if I changed much more than that to start with. I'm all for keeping the plant alive but if I don't understand how or why it was kept alive then that doesn't help me learn for future grows. The thing that does really help is the consensus that the problem is some sort of deficiency, so at least I'm more confident in continuing to feed my plants knowing I'm not burning them.
At this point I'm going to continue on the full strength Jack's classic (in pH adjusted water) and also feed black strap molasses. I'm going to hold off on the other stuff for now because to be honest it's getting to be a bit much and I feel like I'd be going with the shotgun approach if I changed much more than that to start with. I'm all for keeping the plant alive but if I don't understand how or why it was kept alive then that doesn't help me learn for future grows. The thing that does really help is the consensus that the problem is some sort of deficiency, so at least I'm more confident in continuing to feed my plants knowing I'm not burning them.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
Most deficiencies for first time growers can be traced to pH problems. If the pH isn't on, your plants are going to be unable to use what's in the soil. It looks to me like MG is getting locked out but I cannot be sure.
You mentioned testing the pH and then never did so (or didn't share if you did)
Have you ever ph'd your run-off to see where that's at?
I would start here. With Miracle Grow soil, my guess is the soil pH is too low and that's why MG is being locked out.
I can't understand how you would have nutrient def. using a 10-30-20 Bloom Booster at full strength. If it's getting WORSE since you have done so, then I am almost positive it's the pH.
EDIT: I missed where you did test your pH. In soil, you only need to feed once every other watering at most in flower. Your pH should be between 6.3-6.eight.
Here's what I would do: next time they need to be watered, use ph'd h20 only. Get the pH of the water to 6.5 if you can. Then, water your plants until some comes out the bottom and stop. Collect the water that comes out. Test it's pH.
This is called the run-off pH. If it's lower than the ph you just watered with, your soil is "hot," or acidic. If it's the same, your soil ph is fine. If it's higher, your soil pH is higher. This will allow you to correct/rule out pH as the problem. Once you do that, you can actually fix it
You mentioned testing the pH and then never did so (or didn't share if you did)
Have you ever ph'd your run-off to see where that's at?
I would start here. With Miracle Grow soil, my guess is the soil pH is too low and that's why MG is being locked out.
I can't understand how you would have nutrient def. using a 10-30-20 Bloom Booster at full strength. If it's getting WORSE since you have done so, then I am almost positive it's the pH.
EDIT: I missed where you did test your pH. In soil, you only need to feed once every other watering at most in flower. Your pH should be between 6.3-6.eight.
Here's what I would do: next time they need to be watered, use ph'd h20 only. Get the pH of the water to 6.5 if you can. Then, water your plants until some comes out the bottom and stop. Collect the water that comes out. Test it's pH.
This is called the run-off pH. If it's lower than the ph you just watered with, your soil is "hot," or acidic. If it's the same, your soil ph is fine. If it's higher, your soil pH is higher. This will allow you to correct/rule out pH as the problem. Once you do that, you can actually fix it
psyte
Active Member
If the miracle grow is too low that should have been helped all along by my too high tap water. If Mg was locked out wouldn't that have effected my other plant also? Deficiency seems more likely to me since this strain could have a greater need for specific nutrients and may have used them up faster. Lockout just seems like something that would affect all marijuana plants grown in the same medium in similar conditions since they all need at least some level of the same nutrients.
I have my doubts that testing runoff is an accurate way to test soil pH and if the soil pH is off too much I'm not that hopeful that adjusting the water further at this point would turn it around in time. But I do recognize I'm a beginner and so I'm still open to trying it and seeing if adjusting based on the runoff pH helps. I'll test after my next watering.
I hope I'm not coming off as a dick or anything. I'm not trying to bash what you're saying and I know I could be totally wrong about all of that, I just want to make sure that what I'm doing makes sense to me. If I am wrong please explain, I'm into any info you can give me that I'm not considering.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
You're not being a dick at all.
Logically, yes. But I don't know what type of miracle grow soil it is. Is it time release? So each time you water it, it releases more and more into the soil? See, your thinking here about soil pH and how it relates to water/nutrient pH is slightly off.
Yes, over time the water/nutrient strength can influence greatly the soil pH. However, a "hot" soil like Miracle Grow that has no lime in it to act as a buffer can stay hot, even if your plain water has a high pH. Plus, when you are adding a bloom booster to it (how often again?), your 7.5 water comes down quite a bit. Therefore, the pH could actually be closer to 6-something when you are adding nutes.
If that's every other watering, then the "hotness" of the soil is not going to be greatly affected by being watered every other time with 7.5 water IMO.
If you're correct in your assumption, then a full strength dosage of a 10-30-20 bloom booster is going to correct the problem, assuming it's ph'd properly and all that. Which brings me back to this advice: I can't understand how you would have nutrient def. using a 10-30-20 Bloom Booster at full strength. If it's getting WORSE since you have done so, then I am almost positive it's the pH.
Logically, yes. But I don't know what type of miracle grow soil it is. Is it time release? So each time you water it, it releases more and more into the soil? See, your thinking here about soil pH and how it relates to water/nutrient pH is slightly off.
Yes, over time the water/nutrient strength can influence greatly the soil pH. However, a "hot" soil like Miracle Grow that has no lime in it to act as a buffer can stay hot, even if your plain water has a high pH. Plus, when you are adding a bloom booster to it (how often again?), your 7.5 water comes down quite a bit. Therefore, the pH could actually be closer to 6-something when you are adding nutes.
If that's every other watering, then the "hotness" of the soil is not going to be greatly affected by being watered every other time with 7.5 water IMO.
If you're correct in your assumption, then a full strength dosage of a 10-30-20 bloom booster is going to correct the problem, assuming it's ph'd properly and all that. Which brings me back to this advice: I can't understand how you would have nutrient def. using a 10-30-20 Bloom Booster at full strength. If it's getting WORSE since you have done so, then I am almost positive it's the pH.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
I can see your point for sure and you may indeed be correct. I am not there to assess things in person.
I am glad you're open to learning. I have found it to be fairly accurate. If you want to avoid this as even a possibility in the future: 1) Do not use Miracle Grow soil 2) Add lime @ 1 TBL/Gal of dirt 3) ph everything you water the plant between six three and six eight. Then you will know exactly what to look for/do if something like this pops up.
You seem smart. If you're smart, use your best judgement. You're there, I'm here, and they're only pictures. It's kind of like asking someone to tell you what's wrong with your kids and help you fix them...might be able to learn some stuff, but mostly your own intelligence, research, and knowledge of the history/current situation is going to be what gets the job done. Keep us posted.
psyte
Active Member
Ok cool that does make more sense. I also totally understand how difficult it is to diagnose this kind of problem over the internet and I appreciate you and everyone else taking the time to help me work through this.
The miracle grow is the standard time release crap which is why I waited for 3 weeks after repotting to start the bloom feeding (repot was from 1gal to 3gal about a week before going to flower). I'm sure this has contributed to the problem since I've been sparing with nutes since I was worried about burning it because of the time release stuff already in there. I've only fed it one time at half strength and once at full strength since putting it to flower. Also, it was 7" tall when I got it and since I repotted it in miracle grow at that time, I also waited to feed it veg nutes so it probably only got a feeding or two before the second repotting. Still, even being that sparing, it seems like there should be enough nutes there so from that perspective I can see what you mean about lockout being likely.
I do have a better idea of what you're saying about pH so thanks for explaining it further. I would agree it's very likely to be a factor, if not the factor, somewhere in here. I'm just not hopeful about my odds of turning around a pH problem this late into the game by adjusting the water. I'm still going to do it because I don't think it will hurt and I agree it could help, plus I bought the kit this morning so why not put it to use.
Where I absolutely agree with you is that the pH needs to be good from the beginning. This grow has been messy in my opinion, but then we all probably stumble through our first grow to some degree. I am absolutely avoiding the miracle grow in the future and have luckily found a place nearby with FFOF. I think that alone will be a huge step in avoiding this in the future. I'll look into the lime too, from what I've heard it's a good pH buffer but I really haven't gotten around to researching it.
The miracle grow is the standard time release crap which is why I waited for 3 weeks after repotting to start the bloom feeding (repot was from 1gal to 3gal about a week before going to flower). I'm sure this has contributed to the problem since I've been sparing with nutes since I was worried about burning it because of the time release stuff already in there. I've only fed it one time at half strength and once at full strength since putting it to flower. Also, it was 7" tall when I got it and since I repotted it in miracle grow at that time, I also waited to feed it veg nutes so it probably only got a feeding or two before the second repotting. Still, even being that sparing, it seems like there should be enough nutes there so from that perspective I can see what you mean about lockout being likely.
I do have a better idea of what you're saying about pH so thanks for explaining it further. I would agree it's very likely to be a factor, if not the factor, somewhere in here. I'm just not hopeful about my odds of turning around a pH problem this late into the game by adjusting the water. I'm still going to do it because I don't think it will hurt and I agree it could help, plus I bought the kit this morning so why not put it to use.
Where I absolutely agree with you is that the pH needs to be good from the beginning. This grow has been messy in my opinion, but then we all probably stumble through our first grow to some degree. I am absolutely avoiding the miracle grow in the future and have luckily found a place nearby with FFOF. I think that alone will be a huge step in avoiding this in the future. I'll look into the lime too, from what I've heard it's a good pH buffer but I really haven't gotten around to researching it.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
No problem. It's fun anyways and the best way to get better at something yourself is to try and help other people do it.
I wait two-three weeks before I give my plants any nutes as well, but they aren't in Miracle Grow. I also use FFOF, cut down 3 parts for every one part of perlite.
I water my soil plants every 2-3 days and only feed them every third watering. They get about 2 TBLS/GAL (30mL/gal) Fox Farm Big Bloom (.01-.3-.7, quite weak) and 2 TSP/GAL (10mL/gal) Fox Farm Grow Big (6-4-4). In flower they get pretty much the same but I add the granular trio of Open Sesame/early flower (5-45-19), Beastie Bloom/mid flower (0-50-30) and Cha Ching/late flower (9-50-10).
Edit: By pretty much the same, I mean instead of Grow Big, they get Tiger Bloom (2-8-4) along with Big Bloom and whatever of the trio mentioned above is appropriate, based on where they are at in flower, starting out with 1/8 TSP/GAL of Open Sesame and not exceeding 1/2 TSP/GAL of Cha Ching at the end.
Yes, get the lime. Here is my soil recipe. Not the best out there, but I mainly do hydro these days and don't want to be bothered adding bone meal and everything else. Subcool has a SuperSoil recipe that's easy to find on Google if you don't like mine.
FFOF 3:1 perlite (prefer large, chunky kind, but it's expensive, the other kind is fine)
Dolomite Lime: 1 tablespoon / gallon of soil.
And I buy some granular Mykos (mycorrhizae). http://xtreme-gardening.com/mykos/what-is-mykos/
psyte
Active Member
Yeah I've wanted to do Subcool's soil since I read about it, but damn that's a lot of stuff to get. It would be nice to grow without having to worry about adding nutes though.
I've been experimenting with different FFOF to Perlite ratios with some blue cheese clones and some Querkle seeds. I think straight FFOF is too strong for clones and seedlings, but cutting it with perlite is working really good for me so far. I'm swinging back and forth on if I want to cut the FFOF with perlite for full grown plants. From reading about it I kind of feel like adding too much perlite is a throwback to times when there weren't really and good commercially available soils so it was really needed to improve aeration and drainage of the poor quality soil most people had access to. I feel like if FFOF benefited from having more perlite then it would be added by the manufacturer (doesn't seem like it would increase their costs, the stuff is cheap). But this just something else on the long list of thing's I've researched but not tried, so I'll probably experiment with it anyway to see how it works out for me. Like I said my results with clones and seedlings so far is good so I'm not against trying it.
Anyhow, I'm hoping this plant pulls through. I'll be pretty disappointed if I keep having to pay damn dispensary prices while I get more plants going.
I've been experimenting with different FFOF to Perlite ratios with some blue cheese clones and some Querkle seeds. I think straight FFOF is too strong for clones and seedlings, but cutting it with perlite is working really good for me so far. I'm swinging back and forth on if I want to cut the FFOF with perlite for full grown plants. From reading about it I kind of feel like adding too much perlite is a throwback to times when there weren't really and good commercially available soils so it was really needed to improve aeration and drainage of the poor quality soil most people had access to. I feel like if FFOF benefited from having more perlite then it would be added by the manufacturer (doesn't seem like it would increase their costs, the stuff is cheap). But this just something else on the long list of thing's I've researched but not tried, so I'll probably experiment with it anyway to see how it works out for me. Like I said my results with clones and seedlings so far is good so I'm not against trying it.
Anyhow, I'm hoping this plant pulls through. I'll be pretty disappointed if I keep having to pay damn dispensary prices while I get more plants going.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
What you are doing by adding perlite is, as you mentioned, increasing the drainage and aeration of the soil. This will provide you an advantage that greatly outpaces whatever one could be gleaned from having full strength FFOF, IMO.
I have grown with FFoF for nearly 4 years now. I have done side by side grows and all that w/wo it cut down. Sometimes it burns the plants, sometimes it doesn't and they slightly outperform their cut competition at first. But unless you are trying to not add nutes using something like Subcool's Super Soil, the soil's nutrients are only going to serve you for two-three weeks. After that, it's about replacing them. I would much rather have soil with excellent drainage and aeration than a slightly higher starting nutrient content.
One factor effects the plants for a few weeks, the other through the entire life of the grow to harvest. I will take the latter advantage over the former any day.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
Plus, I love how much more frequently I can water with the soil cut. It takes 25% longer or so to dry out enough to warrant another watering uncut.
psyte
Active Member
Yeah that's a good point definitely.
I'm about to repot two blue cheese clones into 2 gal bags, so I'll try one with full strength FFOF and one with 4:1 for my first experiment. 3:1 still seems high to me based on the mixes I did when experimenting before but I may try it later if the 4:1 does noticeably better. Maybe it's just the consistency of my bag of perlite, but it just seems really rocky above 4:1 and the roots also seem to grow quicker and become rootbound faster. My experiments so far are still at the 16oz cup stage, so this may all be totally different when it comes to using bigger containers.
Hey so since you have experience helping with these nute issues, what do you think of my chances with this blue cheese plant? If I can't get a handle on this am I likely to lose her completely?
I'm about to repot two blue cheese clones into 2 gal bags, so I'll try one with full strength FFOF and one with 4:1 for my first experiment. 3:1 still seems high to me based on the mixes I did when experimenting before but I may try it later if the 4:1 does noticeably better. Maybe it's just the consistency of my bag of perlite, but it just seems really rocky above 4:1 and the roots also seem to grow quicker and become rootbound faster. My experiments so far are still at the 16oz cup stage, so this may all be totally different when it comes to using bigger containers.
Hey so since you have experience helping with these nute issues, what do you think of my chances with this blue cheese plant? If I can't get a handle on this am I likely to lose her completely?
psyte
Active Member
You know what, that actually would help a lot with this current grow so I really see where you're going with this now. It takes up to 5-7 days between waterings in this miracle grow so that makes it take much longer to try to adjust the nutrients or pH in any kind of reasonable time frame.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
I'm using the large chunky kind. So 3:1 really isn't nearly as much as 3:1 of the small stuff. I don't see what's wrong with going 4:1 with that. I use the same mix for all container sizes.
GET SOME LIME though, and some Mykos if you can locate it. The lime should be less than $5 for a large bag.
If you can rule out the pH problem (try pH'ing the run-off, post pics of what the solution looks like if you want help, sometimes it's hard to tell at first) then we are looking at a lack of nutrients. I would love some more picture man. Try to make it so I can picture your entire room, over-do it with the pics would help. The more details we can see the better but I will look again.
I really don't think you will lose it. Just be careful what you try to do and remember less is more.
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
Especially when you consider that when growing in soil, the nutes won't really effect the plants until 7-10 days after you give it to them
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
Looks at these three pics.
#1 nitrogen def
#2 MG def
#3 sulphur def
But remember, a pH problem with cause lockout and thus a deficiency. So we need to rule that out first. Plus, as I have stated, I just don't see how in MG Soil with a 10-30-20 bloom booster at full strength you would have def....but I could be wrong.
What was the date you gave them their full strength feeding? Was that the last watering they had? If not, what is the date of their last watering?
If it's a def alone and not a pH problem, then the problem should improve over the 7-14 day period after they got the nutes. If it continues to worsen, makes me think pH lockout.
Edit: Those are five gallon containers, correct? How much are you watering each time? Are you getting any run off?
#1 nitrogen def
#2 MG def
#3 sulphur def
But remember, a pH problem with cause lockout and thus a deficiency. So we need to rule that out first. Plus, as I have stated, I just don't see how in MG Soil with a 10-30-20 bloom booster at full strength you would have def....but I could be wrong.
What was the date you gave them their full strength feeding? Was that the last watering they had? If not, what is the date of their last watering?
If it's a def alone and not a pH problem, then the problem should improve over the 7-14 day period after they got the nutes. If it continues to worsen, makes me think pH lockout.
Edit: Those are five gallon containers, correct? How much are you watering each time? Are you getting any run off?
bigjesse1922
Well-Known Member
Quick root growth is excellent, and I don't really believe in the concept of root bound when it comes to cannabis.
I have taken a rooted clone, planted it in a keg cup, and gotten a half ounce off of it.
psyte
Active Member
Yeah I'd say more like the first one just based on those pics alone. The nitrogen deficiency seems to work it's way up from the bottom. Although the bottom is looking worse on my plant, the yellowing is completely random and scattered throughout.
The first full strength feeding was at the last watering 2 days ago. And by full strength, I mean the amount the container recommends to use for every watering. I'll pull up my grow journal and make another post with the basic history of this plant.
Hopefully... but I think you have a good point that the miracle grow and few feedings I have done shouldn't lead to this kind of deficiency coming on so quickly.
It's in a 3 gallon container. The plant was about 22" tall and 8" wide (untopped) when put to flower so I thought this would be big enough. Well after the LST and initial 12/12 stretch, the plant is now the same height but is a 24-30 inch wide bush. I might have gone bigger if I had it to do over again, but I don't think the size is too bad.
It takes about a gallon every time I water and that's including about 10% runoff. I usually leave the runoff for up to 12 hours and dump anything still there, but it's rare the plant doesn't drink it up in a few hours. This could be slowing down the time between waterings too. I honestly have no idea why I do it this way so if it's a bad idea, let me know.
Nice. Yeah I saw a post once where someone said something similar and included a pic of their 4 foot plant in a 16oz cup.
psyte
Active Member
Ok so I condensed my journal on this plant. Here's the major events in it's life:
8/10 Purchased blue cheese clones and repotted in 1 gallon container using Miracle Grow
8/11 Clones infested with mites, started neem treatment
8/15 No more sign of mites, continued spray every 3 days for 2 weeks
8/31 Replanted in 3 gal container using Miracle Grow (I thought I fed with veg nutes a couple times before that, but I dont see that in the journal I must have been thinking of the clone I kept for a mother)
9/4 Switched to 12/12
9/9 Did initial LSTing after first watering since going to flower (actually first watering since repotting on 8/31)
9/18 Next watering. Started with half strength bloom nutes. Made final adjustments to LST. I got a bit rough with this adjustment since I had to pull around some branches through tight spaces.
9/26 Latest watering. Watered with full strength bloom nutes.
8/10 Purchased blue cheese clones and repotted in 1 gallon container using Miracle Grow
8/11 Clones infested with mites, started neem treatment
8/15 No more sign of mites, continued spray every 3 days for 2 weeks
8/31 Replanted in 3 gal container using Miracle Grow (I thought I fed with veg nutes a couple times before that, but I dont see that in the journal I must have been thinking of the clone I kept for a mother)
9/4 Switched to 12/12
9/9 Did initial LSTing after first watering since going to flower (actually first watering since repotting on 8/31)
9/18 Next watering. Started with half strength bloom nutes. Made final adjustments to LST. I got a bit rough with this adjustment since I had to pull around some branches through tight spaces.
9/26 Latest watering. Watered with full strength bloom nutes.
Similar threads
