A day to celebrate.
- Thread starter abandonconflict
- Start date
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Then you also object to the conclusion that one is a "commie" simply based on recognition of class struggle? It appears you do, so yes, moving on would be appropriate.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
New avatar for Cheesus.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
I do not see how you conclude that. I didn't say that, nor did i think it.
Nonetheless, "class struggle" is a definitively Marxist term; nobody else uses it. The step I do not take is equating Marxists (a sociopolitical affiliation) with "commies" (a vague slur). cn
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Marx may have coined the phrase but he did not begin the struggle he named. It has been waged upon the majority of human population for the majority of history.
I concluded that you object to the use of "commie" as a silver bullet because you deleted more than the one comment.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
My point is that as both a phrase and a concept it belongs to Marxism. Can you give me ironclad examples of class struggle from pre-1000 CE? cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
* accepted generally by historians, not just the interested parties
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Are you kidding?
This is ridiculous and I expect better from such as yourself.
Find me an ironclad example in history where class struggle did not exist.
Go home...
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
As near as I can tell, "class struggle" is a term and a concept specific to Marxixt ideology. The onus is on you to demonstrate otherwise. Dismissing me might be amusing but does not advance the debate. cnAre you kidding?
This is ridiculous and I expect better from such as yourself.
Find me an ironclad example in history where class struggle did not exist.
Go home...
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
In other words, Marx started the class war, by inspiring workers to desire the product of their labor.
You're solidly wrong and indeed, the onus is upon yourself to prove that Marx is the origin of all class struggle. Asking for ironclad proof that class struggle existed is equal to denying that privilege has ever existed.
What do you consider ironclad?
That what Marx described existed before his day?
Or that I consider Marx's definition of class struggle perfect?
In other words, I didn't bring up Marx, I was called a "commie" because I recognize that class struggle exists. Now you are obligating me to prove that what Marx described as class struggle existed prior to his definition AND that I accept his definition as perfect.
Not at all up to par with the logic I have come to enjoy in your posts.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
In other words Cannabineer, no, I'll not be focusing on Marx. In fact, I'm liberating the buzzwords, I can use words Marx used according to dictionary definition and not Marx definition.
Class struggle, warfare, conflict and possibly other phrases similar are now just going to be used in English, not in Marxish.
Class struggle, warfare, conflict and possibly other phrases similar are now just going to be used in English, not in Marxish.
GOD HERE
Well-Known Member
Teabagger.
Doer
Well-Known Member
My dear cn, the classes are always in struggle, aren't they? Pre-1000 - back to o'dark nowhere. When has it not been class struggle? Rome? India? China?
But, a bourgeois thinking to exploit the lower classes, by a religion of false ideological? The one that brought us class struggle of the workers and owners of production.(wha??)...aye, that was our fat cat, our buddy Karl. Marx.
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
That is not what I am or was saying. You have erected a straw man.
Are privilege and class struggle so tightly interlinked? That would be the sort of thing I'd like you to back up.
Something that isn't exclusive to marxists, but is generally recognized by historiens regardless of their personal ideology.
That's in the right direction. You claim was that it was a generic feature of history. Okay ... how did it apply to Athens ca. 5 centuries BCE, to Mesoamericans, to Medieval society? Imo the difficulty comes when one seeks to define the struggling classes. I suspect the problem might be deeper ... in the definition of class itself. Essentially I want to be reassured that there isn't a revisionist history tyring to force the square pegs of five millennia of human doings into the standardized round hole of Marxist thought.
I don't see that you have much of a choice. When I went to dictionaries, "class struggle" was defined thus:
So I see the problem as begging the question. The term is inherent to Marxism.
~sigh~ Back to the straw man. I would like to know what the pre-Enlightenment (i.e. pre-capital) analogs would have been to class struggle. Since you were the one to claim that class struggle has existed throughout history .. and since obviously "class struggle" as the Marxists use it can only have happened after the emergence of capital, I was curious to see you give me histotrical examples that conform both to the term and to generally accepted history. That was all. cn
cannabineer
Ursus marijanus
This is where I do not have confidence that you will succeed. The term is still afaik inextricably linked with Marx and all those who accepted his socioeconomic model and philosophy. I suggest that if you do not want to be tarred with that brush, you avoid the buzzwords. Just a thought. cn