Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Maggies run < 4 ohms requiring gobs of power; 1000 watts to each bass panel + 500 to each ribbon. Super efficient speakers capable of providing similar sonic results are 4- 5Xs more expensive, as are their flea power amps to drive them, and neither does a good job with Pink Floyd & Roger Waters (Amused to Death), but my system will blow your mind. Well worth the swim (or ticket). Yes my electric bill is higher, but my net cost is way lower
But 'stats are arguably easier to "DIY" than planar magnetic speakers, if that's your thing. I'm assuming you're talking about 'stats.

I'll agree with you, though, Maggies do seem like the bargain of the century in speaker technology (before a voice coil rips!). Check out the Fostex T50RP (headphones) and Monsoon MM-701 (computer satellites) for cute little baby versions of the Magnepan. Beware of the Monsoon's, though, they used cheap-o neodymium magnets which have a high tendency to flake off their Nickel plating over time and cause a "buzzing" sound in high excursion frequencies. The Audeze LCD-2, Hifiman HE-6 (and other manufacturers/models) are around as well.

You know how some planar speakers are pleated and/or have scalene shaped frames supporting their diaphragms in order to reduce diaphragm resonances? Well some of the talk in this thread makes me wonder if light can be playing the same trick on the plant as diaphragm resonances do with our ears. Perhaps it's about finding the correct "harmonic" of light so as not to lock out any of the spectrum from our plants or induce "distortion."

If the 660nm wavelength is so bad, why does Kessil, Illumitex, and every other big name LED manufacturer swear by them? This wavelength has been the magic bullet in my garden anyway, although it's been in addition to a 1000w Hortilux.
I believe we don't like them in this thread because they are more expensive than cheap Chinese White LED's, we are striving to be "different" from other growers, they have a lower lm/w rating on average than most White LED's, and SDS had beef with them because he/she seemed to believe that 660nm Red's made his/her plants focus on roots as opposed to shoots which was, in his/her opinion, counterproductive. Possibly more, I don't recall.

Also, we're attempting to make panels for as cheaply as possible in order to increase the number of LED's, in order to increase the number of panels used per sq. ft, in order to increase total coverage via the ability to manipulate the angle/proximity of individual panels to our plants. All of this, of course, is opposed to using a single, traditional, super bright spot light that looms over our canopies. My only gripe with this train of thought is that we also seem to be fighting for ScroG in this thread which is pretty much a method specifically designed to increase light coverage of a plant when using a single spot light. This was originally, of course, the Sun. Another gripe that I have with the thread in general is the reappearance of this idea that the Astir panels will only get better after a few generations of mj strain adaptation which could just as easily be said for 660nm+440nm panels, or some other combo so long as there was no fatal/severely stunting deficiency in the spectra. In my mind, the goal is to most closely replicate the Sun's relationship with plants and at the lowest kWh so that they can continue to do what they've done for thousands of years... but all year round... and in my closet... :weed:

Moral of the story: It's your choice. Use what works for you.
 

tolakra

Member
Scrog is ideal for better light coverage, but you can also grow tree-style, still more efficient than using a single light source.
Just place the panels around the tree :)
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
I believe we don't like them in this thread because they are more expensive than cheap Chinese White LED's
Actually the other way around ..They are cheaper than white leds...


we are striving to be "different" from other growers, they have a lower lm/w rating on average than most White LED's,
Lumens per Watt ? ......We are talking about plants here ,aren't we ? So " lumens " means nothing...


and SDS had beef with them because he/she seemed to believe that 660nm Red's made his/her plants focus on roots as opposed to shoots which was, in his/her opinion, counterproductive. Possibly more, I don't recall.

Way lot more .....

Also, we're attempting to make panels for as cheaply as possible in order to increase the number of LED's, in order to increase the number of panels used per sq. ft, in order to increase total coverage via the ability to manipulate the angle/proximity of individual panels to our plants.

Well lets see .....Power ,huh ? For 5 $ I buy one branded led .......For 5$ I get 600mW of light ....
For the same 5 $ ,I get 10 cheapos ..... 4000 mWatts of light ......
And yup...numbers is most wanted ......

All of this, of course, is opposed to using a single, traditional, super bright spot light that looms over our canopies. My only gripe with this train of thought is that we also seem to be fighting for ScroG in this thread which is pretty much a method specifically designed to increase light coverage of a plant when using a single spot light.

SCROG is used to increase the leaf canopy surface of a plant ,that gets directly illuminated ....
No matter the number of light sources....



This was originally, of course, the Sun. Another gripe that I have with the thread in general is the reappearance of this idea that the Astir panels will only get better after a few generations of mj strain adaptation which could just as easily be said for 660nm+440nm panels, or some other combo so long as there was no fatal/severely stunting deficiency in the spectra.

Yeah..I agree ...I 've better things to do than breeding mj under leds...

In my mind, the goal is to most closely replicate the Sun's relationship with plants and at the lowest kWh so that they can continue to do what they've done for thousands of years... but all year round... and in my closet..
.


Exactly ! (...And maybe a bit more than that ... )

Moral of the story: It's your choice. Use what works for you

Couldn't agree more !

P.S. :

Ok....There has to be one person at least ,that has understood the whole thing with the reds ...
It can't be ....
I trust that somebody has understood ....


My point :
Plants need white light ....
Full spectrum white light ...
A spectral line starting from 400nm going all the way up to 750 nm ..
As even as possible....
"Containing " violets ,blues,greens,yellows,ambers,reds and far reds ........
All of them ....

So we do like 660 nm red same as blue ,or yellow or any other wavelength ...


Asian cheapo leds :

Before ,how many of you had state-of-the -art ,branded HID ballast ,HID lamps & HID reflector.... ?

Leave that question...Forget about it .....

The rest ordinary ballasts ,lamps and reflectors of 10$ ,didn't work ?
Did they suck so much ?
Was the yield difference of a 10$ reflector ,from a 100$ reflector so tragically huge ?
Was the yield difference of a 15$ ordinary hps ,from a 60$ Greenpower the same big ?
Or maybe the yield difference of a 20$ no-name Fe/Cu (analog ) ballast ,with a 100$ branded one ?
.....
Why on earth ,things would be different in " led " area of tech and industry ?
Does the price difference justifies the quality/ yield difference ?
Or better yet ,are they analog to each other ?

I say NO ! NO WAY!!!!

.....
So.....

Astir panels are indeed ,way different from any other ....
Let alone the specs......
They are also....
Heavy ,primitive,as simple as possible ,easy customiseable / serviceable ,cheap ....
........
And they do work .....
For their purpose ?
( Small grows up to one ,one and a half square meter ...)
They do work just fine.....
...
Enough said ...
PC195745.JPGPC195746.JPGPC195747.JPG...


.....from really low watts (one panel ) up to moderate powers (10 panels ,approx 230 Watts )....
Giving from decent ,up to really good yields....
Of high quality herb ....


And yes.....
They 'll get even better....
Way better than this....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Now..
There's unstoppable designing these days....

An experimental design (remote phosphor ) :

All 24 leds are blues,violets/uv ........

Under a thin PMMA screen /protective "glass " .....

Which actually , has a thin " phosphor blend " layer ,implemented.....

(...Actually, melted inside / with the polymer ,itshelf..Simple chemistry does wonders ..
Plastic melts with heat ....Ok...It melts also in another way....
And " special ingredients" can be added .....And then thin leaves of plastic are made by xxxxxxxx the polymer to PTFE (teflon ) molds ....
Inside a special room free of dust and air particles ...
Few nasty stuff ,evaporating then ....
And .....
.....Special Films of Polymethylmethacrylate _aka Plexiglass_ ..are ready.....

..Really special films......
They look transparent reddish ...
But once they get radiated with blue light....
Magic !!!.....And there Was light !


A surface of 160 x 200 mm ,radiating special ( plant growing -wise ) " white light "
( quite "warm" I should say ...Resembles natural sunlight a lot ... )
....
Has,also, a lot of testing to go through ....
Polymer thickness ,phosphor blend mix and quantities ,ect .....
( A LOT ...But a very promising remote phosphor led panel..... )
Along with other experimental designs (pink leds,ect ..).....

....
Led tech is wonderful for plant growing...
So many different possibilities....
Just love it !

......
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
In my mind, the goal is to most closely replicate the Sun's relationship with plants and at the lowest kWh so that they can continue to do what they've done for thousands of years... but all year round... and in my closet... :weed:
Ok, I like duplicating the Sun's spectrum, but the whole point of LEDs was to focus on the peak absorption wavelengths, therefore increasing production without increasing energy costs/heating/cooling....etc.

I like afternoon sun the best as that is when the spectrum is at it's reddest. I'm talking 3pm, 4pm, 5pm. I took a SA last summer in the afternoon and this is what the Sun is putting out at those hours. I see quite a bit of deep red in there, and I know that's what plants like for growing big.
3pm
sun SA.jpg

11am to compare,
midday sun SA.jpg
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
Fonzarelli: Those are some sick images. Doesn't look too far off from what SDS was saying about a relatively straight line across the board from 400nm to 750nm, imo. Anyway, if all you want to do is stimulate peak absorption that's fine. It's been proven to work. I think this thread is attempting to find out how well that method works, as well as uncover unknown relationships between plants and everything between those two peak absorption frequency ranges.

stardustsailor: First, I'd just like to say that I like a lot of what you have to say, and I like your passion for LED technology even more.

Actually the other way around ..They are cheaper than white leds...
You're correct, I was comparing brand name 660nm's to generic White's, for some reason. Completely off point.
Lumens per Watt ? ......We are talking about plants here ,aren't we ? So " lumens " means nothing...
This isn't a rebuttal, it's a sincere question. Why not make a panel with a ratio of
1:1:1:1:1:1
Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, UV/Purple?
36 LED's per panel, 6x6 grid, should be easy enough to get even coverage of every spectrum.
SCROG is used to increase the leaf canopy surface of a plant ,that gets directly illuminated ....
No matter the number of light sources....
ScroG increases the canopy surface area that gets directly illuminated, and increasing the number of repositional panels increases the surface area of directly illuminated foliage (canopy, or otherwise). That's all I'm saying. Using both methods in combination seems slightly redundant to me given the penetrating power of higher power LED's or HID lighting (which have lumens to spare for lenses or reflectors), however, I'm sure both tactics come in handy for what they're worth.
Yeah..I agree ...I 've better things to do than breeding mj under leds...
Okay.
Exactly ! (...And maybe a bit more than that ... )
I'm definitely rooting for your corner.
Couldn't agree more !
:peace:
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
This isn't a rebuttal, it's a sincere question. Why not make a panel with a ratio of
1:1:1:1:1:1
Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, UV/Purple?
36 LED's per panel, 6x6 grid, should be easy enough to get even coverage of every spectrum.
This is a wonderful question....
Time for some blah-blah....
Ok....

Using leds as light source gives the ability of ..agility ....

Regarding plant growth ,light- as the primary & solely ,energy used to produce mass- has two
characteristics :
Power x Duration (time ) .....

It also has two more ...
-Quality ( spectral distribution / balance )
- Direction ( angle,dispersion -diffusion )


So...
Case #1 :

1:1:1:1:1:1
Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, UV/Purple...

At first the electrical design ...Ok ..Let's say all leds work at@350 mA ....

Red : 300 mW
Amber : 150-200 mW
yellow : 150 mW
Green : 150-200 mW
Blue : 400 mW
UV/Violet :300 mW
red/amber/yellow is 0.7 Watt each ...2.1 Watts at plug all three together ....Radiating 600mW light ...
Ggeen,blue,violet is 1 Watt each .. 3 watts all together ,radiating 900mW of light ....

Summed up... Every 6 led grid is 5.1 Watts at plug ,radiating 1.5 Watt of light .....
1.5/5.1 = 0.29 overall efficiency ......

With six peaks,mainly at a spectral graph ..... ......

" Light falling " pattern is quite uneven too....
6 circles of different wavelength.....


Case #2 : 6 leds again ... 4 x WW & 2 X CW ....

All leds are 1 Watt at @ 350mA ....Each CW radiates 400 mW ,each WW radiates 380mW ....

6 Watts ...at plug ...
Radiating 2 x 400 = 800mW
&
4 x 380 = 1520 mW.....
Total = 2320 mW ..

2320/6000 = 0.38 efficiency .....

With two large " flat" peaks at blues and orange/reds,represented at a spectral graph ....

And more even blended ,falling light.....


Case # 3 :
6 blue leds and a phosphor doped Polymer screen (remote phosphor ) ...

Blue at 440 mW ,@ 350mA .....
6 watts with output power of 2640mW ....- 10% from screen = 2614 mW ...
2.6 / 6 = 0.43 efficiency ...(if output power losses from screen / PMMA remote phosphor film ,are kept around 10% ..)
...

Even better spectral graph .... (different blue/violet chips along with yellow,orange ,red and deep red phosphors ..=> more ' full ' -{ gapless/ "canyonless" } spectrum )


As for light falling ....
Just imagine ....The whole 6 led grid is a big light emitting surface now ....
( As big as the size of the screen ,6 blue /violet leds can light up .... )....

...
Yes..I trust that " phosphor layer " generated light by led diode stimulation ,along with some led diode light passing through .....
Well I trust ,it has some future ....

Remote phosphors.....
Such a wonderful idea......
PlantHue....

Astir HortiHue !



Ability of agility ....
What can do with leds :

-Break up the overall power into more small powered " cells " of light ...
Distribute power ,more evenly across canopy .....

-Break up the spectrum ...Red ,blue ,ect leds ...
Plenty of colours .... ( Do we really need that ? I trust not .... )

-Do not need a reflector ....They are not emitting a sphere of light...Rather a cone shaped ....



****Sun is a single light source....
But through sky (atmosphere dispersion ) and due to long distance from earth .....
Well sunlight is actually ...more of a surrounding light .....
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
Ok, I like duplicating the Sun's spectrum, but the whole point of LEDs was to focus on the peak absorption wavelengths, therefore increasing production without increasing energy costs/heating/cooling....etc.
Who says so ?

focus on the peak absorption wavelengths ?


Ok ...
Plants absorb almost all light from 400 to 700 nm .....
All of it ....
Ok ...They reflect back a really small % of green ....
Really small ...
Compared to the amounts of FR light ,plants reflect....
But since we 're not able to see FR ...
We-humans- settle with the small amount of green reflected ....
I.e.
"Plants ,they do not green light ,because they reflect it ....."
Well ...wrong..Way wrong ....


..Once again ....
but the whole point of LEDs was to focus on the peak absorption wavelengths
Ok ..Yes ..That's why leds are better than halogen ,or CFL or even HID ...
They do not emit much FR light...Only as much as needed ,probably .....
Because if you meant any other wl ,apart from blue & red ...
....
Well I got some news ....
All visible light is used by plants .....
Almost all of it ....
And no ....
Going just blue & red combo has some serious issues and limitations ,there....

.....
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
^^^^^^I have seen that's it's possible to do just blue and red from tests by Weezard, but he's just one guy with one strain. Doesn't really apply to the whole. But in my kitchen, red and blue just don't cut it(so far) except in the T5 world, which have a huge range of blue, green, etc. and not just particular wavelengths. I know that the overall "color hue" has ALOT TO DO WITH how well plants grow because I've seen it happen with T5's. All strains will react differently to different amounts of blue/red/green/yellow etc. I know the strains I grow pretty well and how they react to MH+LED R/B or T5's, but the LED only issue is what's trapped me in a corner and I really want out.

I've seen some amazing things happen utilizing 6500K T5's mixed with Purple T5's(half red half blue). So I'm only going by the assumption that it would apply to the LED world. The place in which LEDs fail IMO is the lack of Blue wavelengths. I've seen 460nm advertised from places like LedEngin, 470nm from Cree, 447 from Luxeon, but what about 440, 430, 420? Is it really possible to the healthy lush growth I've seen with T5's in veg from LEDs without containing the deeper blue waves?

I am interested in budding of course, but not until I see healthy lush growth in veg first. Gotta start somewhere. In the world I see LEDs really taking off, VEG plays a huge role, not just in weed, but food. Without a healthy veg, you won't get good flowers.

I'm down with White LEds. I have an assortment of whites in my "box of beads" to play with. LedEngin Warm White which peak at 434 and 630. LedEngin Neutral White which peak at 460nm and 610. Rebels that peak at 440 and 570 for the neutral and 440 and 550 for the Cool Whites. Also in my lineup I have the Royal Blue that peaks around 447nm.

My last flowering panel attempt I used 4 of the LEngin WW, 1 LEngin 460nm and 4 of the 660 by LE. When I tried to veg with it the plants really looked like shit which I attribute to the lack of blue and excess amount of yellow-red. I put a couple plants under it a few days ago for budding to see if anything happens. So far there is no movement of the leaves and no reaching for the light that I see so often in the special colored T5's that kick ass for vegging.

I'm going to give it a few weeks and if the plants don't make it oh well. At least I know it wasn't an option. Oh yeah, the panel draws 90w total.

My assumption is that even in flowering at least for the plants I'm growing, they are going to get stunted without a wide range of blue especially deep blue. The blue in my panel peaks at 457nm. The range is fairly wide but doesn't go deeper than 440nm.

As a side note, I want to point out that when doing LED mixing you can't just take the individual LED spectral analysis's and put them over the top of each other. It doesn't work that way. When you mix the LEDs, their spectrums also will mix. For instance, when I used the LEngin WW the WW have a blue peak by themselves of around 434nm, but when I mix 4 of them with a 460nm blue, the blue peak gets washed out and averages at 457nm and the deep blue peak that was originally in the WW disappears. I don't know how much it matters, but I just wanted to point it out anyway. I just want to start seeing some results in my kitchen which will happen eventually, it's just a matter of time.

Maybe time is the real culprit. It's possible that my strains are just not adapted to narrow bandwidth light as of yet. But I wanted to throw these concepts out there to see the reaction anyway.
 

Bumping Spheda

Well-Known Member
As a side note, I want to point out that when doing LED mixing you can't just take the individual LED spectral analysis's and put them over the top of each other. It doesn't work that way. When you mix the LEDs, their spectrums also will mix. For instance, when I used the LEngin WW the WW have a blue peak by themselves of around 434nm, but when I mix 4 of them with a 460nm blue, the blue peak gets washed out and averages at 457nm and the deep blue peak that was originally in the WW disappears.
Can you do an experiment? Connect the WW to a different driver or switch so you can turn them on/off and see immediately if there is a difference?

You should not lose the Blue peak of the WW, it should shift the peak of the Deep Blue, which it seems to have done.
 

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Fonzarelli

Active Member
It does shift the peak of the pure blue. But the peak in the WW doesn't show up anymore when they are mixed. It might just be that the pure blue overshadows it because it's so intense. When it's just the WW on the deep blue peak in the WW pops back up.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Time to Harvest

It's a good thing I waited a few more days- lots more sugary goodness to show off, and later enjoy.

She's ~ 3ft tall

I pulled a few lowest branches- one Monday, the other Tuesday. Did a quick food dehydrator pre-cure, just past wilt, then jared. Took a small bud late yesterday and have been enjoying the hell out of it
. A little goes a very long way

The top bud/cola is as dense as I have ever grown. Again, I do not know the strain's origin

I will adjust brightness later. The morning is spectacular, heading out for a ride


IMG_1245.jpgIMG_1247.jpgIMG_1243.jpgIMG_1241.jpgIMG_1244.jpgIMG_1246.jpgIMG_1245.jpgIMG_1242.jpg
 

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PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Just harvested her this morning. Weight is with primary leaves and main stalk

Unknown
Sat dominant strain, but exc saved seeds.

Grown under a combination of a 3 yo UFO 90 ~ 8:2 R/B one-watt diodes +

supplemented with a vanity fixture, with a combination of low watt screw bulb leds- ww/cw/bw (all one watt diodes)

Clones have been in same tent, not getting proper amount of light, or intensity, as they have been sharing light from the 2 fixtures.

I am guessing I have ~ 80 watts
total. Imagine what Astirs' ~ 135 true watts with proper balanced spectrums and multi-positioned will do

If dry weight is 2 ounces I'm at 0.7 g/w, actually a bit more. I pulled a low branch Tuesday that is jared, so maybe 1 more g/w and the heaviest cola is hanging well off the scale, so could be more

IMG_1250.jpgIMG_1248.jpgIMG_1249.jpg
 

locoezon

Active Member
UcMY2.jpg

So final result was 1.5g/W :hump:

I would want to hear all those that did not support cheapest chinese/White Led what they have to say now :twisted:

*Ganja one more time u !@#% "ROCK !!

[video=youtube;ZHSLUOPymZ4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHSLUOPymZ4[/video]
 

ganja 2

Active Member
It's not about the 1,5g per Watt but the fact that these perfume quality, and power are fcking hiiigh..:shock::shock:!!!
i enjoy it with a very best friend and my son...:-D
im waiting u all(soon:bigjoint:) to taste it and to reveal you my new grow...!:weed:
 

stardustsailor

Well-Known Member
View attachment 2450810

So final result was 1.5g/W :hump:

I would want to hear all those that did not support cheapest chinese/White Led what they have to say now :twisted:

*Ganja one more time u !@#% "ROCK !!
....

Note down also that the leds are runnin' at @350mA ..
No lenses ....
Cheap drivers also ...
No super-hyper-deeper reds ....

So...At least we know that this design right now can hit the 1.6 gpw (215/132-135 ) mark ....
And that, was done with sick plants ,massively infested with spidermites....

With 132-135 watts of leds ,Ganja almost got the same yield of a 400 Watt HPS .....
...
I guess that ....
......
Now it's about time to make some real led panels ....
..
2013 will bring many surprises ...
[video=youtube;wsrvmNtWU4E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsrvmNtWU4E[/video]

Remote phosphor 1.jpgRemote phosphor2.jpgRemote phosphor3.jpg
 
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