Astir Grow Led Panel Project...

Thank you !

I was thinking of the solvent + some pieces of polycarbonate/PMMA "melted " inside to form a thin "glue " (my bonding material ...)
Then I'll use it as thin paint ( as "dry '" as possible ,meaning a lot of phosphor load & solvent ...In order to dry as matte as possible ...)

I 'll use an air-brush ...(Industry uses pulsed spray coatings ..Found out about how they do it ,actually... )....

Maybe multiple thin coatings (testing ...the simple way ... ) of 0,05 mm ,each...

Melted PMMA & phosphor & solvent sprayed at Pmma screen ...
Solvent until evaporates bonds pmma screen and phosphor at a thin layer ....

Another way is using an extra bonding material ..
Be it uv curing silicones ,acrylic or epoxy .....
But I'm not that fond of ...

I prefer the "superficial bonding by critical solvent evaporation "( phewww ...!! What did I just wrote ? )..

Making it "one " with the substrate ...

Any comments ?
Any thoughts about possible troubles doing so ?

$hit ! those Phosphors (specially the red ones ..) are pretty expensive ...


( A phosphor layer would be approx 200 x 160 x 0.2 mm(say... ) = 6400 mm^3 = 6.4 cm^3
Some of that ( 1/3 to 1/2 ) should be PMMA material ......
Say the 1/3 ....
So 4,3 cm^3 is the blend of phosphors (approx ) as powder ....

Average density of phosphors is 3gr / cm^3 ..
So for every panel appox 15 grams of phosphor is needed ?
It can't be ...
Somewhere I did a mistake .... ..
Wow ..That's a lot ..No way...

A phosphor layer would be approx 200 x 160 x 0.2 mm(say... )

Click to expand...

0.2mm maybe to much?.. idk
paint thickness stays in the µm range(40µm and up)

GD+ blue led


GD+ 6500K same base


structure can be seen

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/solidstate/speLED.asp

Some links you may find useful. No joking this time.

Hey how come it's so dark in this thread?

Killer link Fran. Thanks.

Fascinating work at hand here in these forums. Captivating, in the least. I long to develop a basis of knowledge from which to build upon, so that I may contribute to the science taking place. I fear the cryptic teachings RIU and it's members bestow upon me, not enough. Is there anyone willing to divulge how they acquired their expertise and knowledge concerning electrical engineering/horticultural lighting/horticulture etc? Education? Experience?

You must excuse a young and inquiring mind!

Any thoughts on the specific locations of each color on the Merkaba? http://www.creationlightship.com/creationdiagram.php

guod said:

0.2mm maybe to much?.. idk
paint thickness stays in the µm range(40µm and up)

GD+ blue led
View attachment 2452237

GD+ 6500K same base
View attachment 2452242

structure can be seen

Click to expand...

Hmmmm.Yes ...You're probably right ....

It should be treated as " paint " ,at least for the layering method and procedure ...
Indeed very thin layer on those GDs ...
Probably at the μm range,as correctly you've stated...
Ok ...
So say ....
100 micron thickness ( 100 μm )
( max thickness ? It needs to be found ... )

That is 0.1 mm
50 micron is 0.05 mm ...
3.2 cm^3 for the 100 micron
1.6 cm^3 for the 50 micron ....




So to cover a screen of PMMA plastic (or polycarbonate )with a fine air-brushing ..

The "paint" should consist of :

-Solvent for the bonding material (phosphor is complex mineral salts in fine powder form .....)
-Bonding material ...Some same material of screen ..PMMA or Polycarbonate...
Solvent will dissolve also for brief time the surface of screen ( trapping/enclosing in the polymer matrix and at pores left ,the phosphor particles ...)
-Phosphor blend ...
For an 0.05 mm layer ,on a screen of 200 x 160 mm ,3.5 to 5 grams of phosphor are needed,for each screen ....
Still that's plenty of phosphor...
Way expensive ...

So remote phosphor tech ,applied in large screens is quite expensive ....( due to high phosphor prices ... )


(Muble-muble...)
..
1.6 cm^3 of phosphor mix for the 50 micron layer ....(approx )
One green for a bit of green light ....Say with a peak emission at ...550 nm ...(green light lower than 550 nm has great adverse effects ... )
Just a bit of that ...

Say 100 mm^3 .... 0.3 grams of green phosphor ....

Now a yellow one,with peak at 590 nm ...A bit more ...
Say 200 mm^3 ....0.6 grams of yellow phosphor ....


plenty of orange one ...Peak at 600 nm ..

say 300 mm^3 ....0.9 grams of orange ....

1.8 grams all together ....(aver.phosphor density = 3 grams/ cm^3 )

Until the 4.8 grams that 1.6 Cm^3 of phosphor weight,are left 3 grams ..

(1 cm^3 ) ...

All goes to red phosphors (most expensive ones ) ....

Say 3 of them ..620..640...660...
(670nm peak red nitride ,gives a lot of converted light ,above the 700nm region ... Like having a FR led ...Kinda ..)


...
Expensive method,for sure...
It worths a try ,though....
I very curious about this tech ....

HiloReign said:

Killer link Fran. Thanks.

Fascinating work at hand here in these forums. Captivating, in the least. I long to develop a basis of knowledge from which to build upon, so that I may contribute to the science taking place. I fear the cryptic teachings RIU and it's members bestow upon me, not enough. Is there anyone willing to divulge how they acquired their expertise and knowledge concerning electrical engineering/horticultural lighting/horticulture etc? Education? Experience?

You must excuse a young and inquiring mind!

Click to expand...

I'll try to answer that ....

Honestly,it takes only one thing .....

Love...

All you got to do is love what's you're doin'....

All the rest are trivial details and they do not mean much ,just by themshelves ...( Education.. Experience..Ect ...)..

Just got to love, what's you're doing ...

Making part of your " life " ,in fact ....

Depending how hard and how high you've climbed ....
The deeper you 'll reach ,into the sea ,after diving...


It takes ,just " love "...

'Ερως,ανίκατε μάχαν...
( "love, invincible in battle" )

For Hesiod and the early Greek Olympian myth (8th century BC), Chaos was the first of the primordial deities, followed by Earth (Gaia), Tartarus and Eros(Love)..

Click to expand...

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/solidstate/cr_multiPhosphor.asp That is way interesting .....
So better applying each phosphor in its own layer ...
Starting,closer to die from Less photons (green ) to Many photons (red)...

So first applying the 660 phosphor ,then the 640,620,600,590,and lastly the 550 ....
Better than mixing them all together,huh ? ....
Also maybe going from thinner to thicker particle size.... Maybe it also plays role ,there ....

So it says :

RESULTS

The chromaticity values (u’, v&#8217 of the output light for the Y10-R10 SPE package are different than the other two, even though the amount of yellow and red phosphors is the same. The Y10-R10 SPE package, where the longer-wavelength red phosphor is the outermost layer, yielded the highest light output among all three configurations. Two dominant factors that influenced the outcome include: 1) the amount of the backward emitted light from the first layer, and 2) the forward emitted light from the first layer being reconverted by the second phosphor layer if its spectrum is within the second phosphor layer’s absorption region.

So ....Ok ..
Red most outter from chip and green closer to chip ....
Ok...
But what about choosing their particle size ?
Huh ?



Can it be both ways ?
What are the differences ?

1) the amount of the backward emitted light from the first layer


In first case of layering vs particle size green particles are bigger than reds ...

Because green phosphor is of the least volume (mass ,also ) ,green layer
should be so thin ,close to particle diameter ,in order to cover the whole surface of the screen ..At the same time has to be as even as possible ....
( Ouch...That is going to be way tricky ,to do,with an air brush .... )


So underlying layers of yellows,orange & reds are pretty exposed directly to blue light ...
So enough yellows,orange & reds wls are reflected back ,towards the led....

Not good ....

At the second case ,last green layer is of small particle size ....(red is of the largest )
.....Green phosphor (same amount as before ...Has to be that way ) now ,probably(theoretically ) covers better the underlying layers of the other phosphors ...
Less photons are reflected back ....


Opppss...
Now we're getting somewhere I guess...
Red is outtermost layer with largest particle size (if possible )
and green is innermost -towards leds - layer with smallest particle size ...


Workin those with an airbrush....

Reds (the most " crucial " phosphors ,nevertheless ) are a piece of cake to layer (spray) into a fine coating ..
Big particle size (easy covering ) ,a large % of phosphor blend is red ,thick layers ....

Going towards green phosphor layer ,thing are getting tough ..
Small quantities (more polymer in the mix ! ..That's it ! ) to cover same surface ....


...

And the ratio Solventolymer hosphor is of great importance ....


And final outcome has to be a thin multilayered ,matte ,scratch resistant ,efficient remote phosphor ...

Damn...I always like the toughest ones ...

What if you used something like this with one of these installed in it instead? Paint the new lens and presto! Seems more worth your while to use high power LED chips when the powder is so expensive. Both those links are the same seller so maybe he can swap them out, or have them custom made with the Blue chip already installed.

This other eBay seller sells little guys in different colors. Don't know the exact wavelengths he uses, though. Here's a red one with the wavelength listed so maybe he can do other colors.

If you suspended the phosphor over the LED chip, but still within the glass lens, perhaps you could get a mock "extraction chamber" going like those guys were talking about in Fran's link.

I am sort of interested to see a converging lens used somehow with remote phosphors. Perhaps that could help with "extraction" of phosphor reflected light somehow.

3000K > $59.29
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/semiconductors/optoelectronics/led-accessories/Pages/6008629-CL-830-P215-PC.aspx?IM=0

stardustsailor said:

I'll try to answer that ....

Honestly,it takes only one thing .....

Love...

All you got to do is love what's you're doin'....

All the rest are trivial details and they do not mean much ,just by themshelves ...( Education.. Experience..Ect ...)..

Just got to love, what's you're doing ...

Making part of your " life " ,in fact ....

Depending how hard and how high you've climbed ....
The deeper you 'll reach ,into the sea ,after diving...


It takes ,just " love "...

'Ερως,ανίκατε μάχαν...
( "love, invincible in battle" )

Click to expand...

Wise words from a wise man. Well spoken SDS.

Goodmorning everybody,

Here we are at Day 20 from seed...

Fed at first day of the 3rd week with 1/2 table spoon (let's hope it is about 0.2g) of 20-20-20...

* i saw the first pistils (pre-flowers) yesterday...ma baby is getting bigger

Bumping Spheda said:

What if you used something like this with one of these installed in it instead? Paint the new lens and presto! Seems more worth your while to use high power LED chips when the powder is so expensive. Both those links are the same seller so maybe he can swap them out, or have them custom made with the Blue chip already installed.

Click to expand...

Yes...It can be done this way also ...(Have thought about it ...Those blue arrays ,can be of different wavelength (custom ) blue dies ... )

This other eBay seller sells little guys in different colors. Don't know the exact wavelengths he uses, though. Here's a red one with the wavelength listed so maybe he can do other colors.

Click to expand...

I think it uses assorted dies for the colored ones ...

If you suspended the phosphor over the LED chip, but still within the glass lens, perhaps you could get a mock "extraction chamber" going like those guys were talking about in Fran's link.

I am sort of interested to see a converging lens used somehow with remote phosphors. Perhaps that could help with "extraction" of phosphor reflected light somehow.

3000K > $59.29
http://www.futureelectronics.com/en/technologies/semiconductors/optoelectronics/led-accessories/Pages/6008629-CL-830-P215-PC.aspx?IM=0

Click to expand...

Yes..It would work also that way ...A lens can be ,at same time ,a remote phosphor...


Take a look to some interesting topics(Caution :Heavy Stuff !!) :

http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-19-S4-A930&id=219512

http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-34-1-1

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4796377&url=http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=4796377

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5549901&url=http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=5549901

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=5712168&url=http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=5712168

http://www.google.gr/patents?hl=el&lr=&vid=USPAT7029935&id=S5V3AAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&dq=led+remote+phosphor+coating&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q=led remote phosphor coating&f=false

http://www.google.gr/patents?hl=el&lr=&vid=USPAT7217583&id=b_h_AAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&dq=led+remote+phosphor+coating&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q=led remote phosphor coating&f=false

HiloReign said:

Wise words from a wise man. Well spoken SDS.

Click to expand...

Thank you for your kind words ...
( But trust me ,I'm pretty far away from wisdom .... I'm no more than a fool ,who's "in love" with led growing -...)

weedman420gr said:

Goodmorning everybody,

Here we are at Day 20 from seed...

Fed at first day of the 3rd week with 1/2 table spoon (let's hope it is about 0.2g) of 20-20-20...

* i saw the first pistils (pre-flowers) yesterday...ma baby is getting bigger

Click to expand...

Really good job,there...
Plant seems really healthy ...
(Gosh..those are thick stems ,brother ...The violet led's work or just genetics ? )

...
Hey,that screen is from a BBQ ? ....(Just joking ... )
Hope you've cleaned it ,before using it ...
I can see some spots of rust ...


(Half a table spoon (!!!) is not 0.2 gr of 20-20-20...More like 2-3 grams of it ...
Half a "topped flat/ shaved off " tea spoon ,is about 0.5-0.8 grams ....
Table spoon = " Soup " spoon =the big one ....
Have you ODed the plant with nutes ?

that's how GREEKS do it!!
ganja my friend there is nothing to say!
the dream come true!
the white spectrum miricle!
did anyone said something about white spectrum???!!!
very nice job ASTIR TEAM!
congrats!

stardustsailor said:

Really good job,there...
Plant seems really healthy ...
(Gosh..those are thick stems ,brother ...The violet led's work or just genetics ? )

...
Hey,that screen is from a BBQ ? ....(Just joking ... )
Hope you've cleaned it ,before using it ...
I can see some spots of rust ...


(Half a table spoon (!!!) is not 0.2 gr of 20-20-20...More like 2-3 grams of it ...
Half a "topped flat/ shaved off " tea spoon ,is about 0.5-0.8 grams ....
Table spoon = " Soup " spoon =the big one ....
Have you ODed the plant with nutes ?

Click to expand...

I think the 2 UV's i have in my set up, will reward me at the end....will see...

I dont really know the origin of the screen...some old screen from the warehouse i guess... i have not cleaned it though...plant will do just fine...(i've use this screen in previous grows...no problems at all)

On the Spoon subject... i use the regular spoon(i think its the "tea spoon") for fertilizing...so i've fed with 1/2 of the regular small spoon we use for tea or coffee...

Everything seems to be ok...

And so,we move on...

* The good thing is that i have grown the same strain under a 70w HPS...so i ll compare the two...
If you request, i can post photos of both plant every time i update...but i think we are all convinced by the power of A-LED panels...

**SPOILER...the 70w HPS wins so far...so far

**SPOILER...the 70w HPS wins so far...so far

Click to expand...

And probably HPS will be the final winner here ,at this case ....(yield weight wise ...)

Autos ,contain Ruderalis genome ..
Ruderalis plants are not tolerant to high energy UV light,at all ...

Now ..
Do not underestimate the power from blue & UV light ..
It takes small amounts of power ,to seriously decrease yields in Sativas & Indicas ...(Imagine for Ruderalis.... )

Though the quality ,(taste/smell & probably potency ) ,rather increases... ( In fact ,quite a lot ... )
So CW ,NW and violet leds ,actually deliver more than enough blue / violet high energy light ....
And needs some space also ,to disperse ,to become more "familiar " with plant's PS systems (and for plant's sake ,at general.... )

(....wide lens used -distance from canopy or/and indirectly illumination by reflected/diffused light -not concentrated pcs of NW / CW leds,positioned on panel -.....The more I become a " Warm White " believer,regarding use of ordinary white leds for growing purposes... )

So it is like the natural sun (leds =>uv & blue ) versus greenhouse filtered light ...(HPS ) ..
Smaller but tastier tomatoes at first case ...Bigger with no taste at all ,at second case....

Same ( kinda ) with Leds vs HPS ,at this case of yours .....


Ok ..Tea spoon is the smaller one...Your ok ...
Keep the good work,there...

stardustsailor said:

And probably HPS will be the final winner here ,at this case ....(yield weight wise ...)

Autos ,contain Ruderalis genome ..
Ruderalis plants are not tolerant to high energy UV light,at all ...

Now ..
Do not underestimate the power from blue & UV light ..
It takes small amounts of power ,to seriously decrease yields in Sativas & Indicas ...(Imagine for Ruderalis.... )

Though the quality ,(taste/smell & probably potency ) ,rather increases... ( In fact ,quite a lot ... )
So CW ,NW and violet leds ,actually deliver more than enough blue / violet high energy light ....
And needs some space also ,to disperse ,to become more "familiar " with plant's PS systems (and for plant's sake ,at general.... )
(wide lens used -distance from canopy-not concentrated pcs of NW / CW leds,positioned on panel -)
(The more I become a " Warm White " believer,regarding use of ordinary white leds for growing purposes... )

So it is like the natural sun (leds =>uv & blue ) versus greenhouse filtered light ...(HPS ) ..
Smaller but tastier tomatoes at first case ...Bigger with no taste at all ,at second case....

Same ( kinda ) with Leds vs HPS ,at this case of yours .....


Ok ..Tea spoon is the smaller one...Your ok ...
Keep the good work,there...

Click to expand...

On the Yield:

Personally i think LED's will give me more yield than last year's 15g from 70w HPS ( in 7L pot) (lights 12/12,crappy feeding,temps over 40C)

Now the plant is in 13L pot,with almost ideal temps , lights 20/4 and a scheduled feeding program...

I want to believe i'll get at least 1g/w...but lets enjoy the journey...

Thanks for your compliments... Hope i/we can return the favor sometime

I wish you the best ...
There's nothing to return ...
We Share ...
No matter what...


[video=youtube;nwuazUXiE1o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwuazUXiE1o&list=AL94UKMTqg-9BO0mvKQHXXSc9l00s2uKN7[/video]

All is violent ...Vibrating....Moving....Being....
All is bright ....
[video=youtube;ESK8hi1LyLc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESK8hi1LyLc&list=AL94UKMTqg-9BO0mvKQHXXSc9l00s2uKN7[/video]
...
And has no end ...


..Best wishes to everybody ...

To all ...

..." parts "....

...of this ...

.... " One " ..