Colloidal silver: the working mechanism

A writing forum is not a place to teach people to read just as a gardening forum is not a place to teach people basic biology. It is a place where people can discuss knowledge. If one party is so far behind on their understanding of a subject is not the responsibility of some one looking for intilecrual conversation. To take them back through the basics.

Like other plants some varieties use XX some use XY and others use XO or XA. life evolves and these are not strict rules that plants follow. They mingle inbetween these various states depending on not only their genetic influence but on many other factors. Cannabis is all three depending on variety. It is dio, it is mono, it is sub. It can have all in the same population. If you would actually read the above posts and then god forbid read some source material you would know this.

I find it hilarious that you think my posting a wiki article was doing your research. The point is you can't even take the time to look at Wikipedia before you attack others. I am sitting on my sailboat in the SF bay doing this on my IPad. It takes a sec to cut and past from wiki. Again if you had any integrity you would have taken more time. I told you where I posted that from so you could go there and use the various citations to further your reading. But of course you can't be bothered with doing any thinking! You just want to push a button and have the answer read to you. How novel

Yes because Wikipedia is a worthless tool. You should never use it as place to find source material that would be absurd. There are definitely no professionals who would do that because professionals can't differentiate between a scholarly paper and opinion. Grow up or don't make any plans for an intellectual position in your future. If you can't grasp what has been laid at your feet then prepare for a nice backbreaking factory job where you will neither change the world nor leave your mark.

You asked repeatedly for someone to shove the answer in your face and then you whine about it. Classic

I obviously do not care what you think of me! I do care greatly about science and knowledge. That is why I spent thousands of dollars and many years on education. I don't need to back up what I say. In the scientific world when a colleague presents information one does not blurt out their opinion while knowing full well they have no working knowledge of the subject only to then have the gaul to expect the former to explain rudimentary information to the latter. You will find that intellegent people who work hard to learn thing have very little patience for lazy ignoramuses!

I appreciate the civility of the first two of your last four posts. I agree with you in that a lot of people want information just handed to them, but that is not what I am asking for. I am not uneducated, I am not a high school kid, and I have done plenty of research and have read all appropriate wiki entries (I think) and their source information and have not come up with something that says definitively what type of system cannabis uses to determine sex, and definitely not anything that tries to compare cannabis to human chromosomes as you did in your first post.

Beachside said:

Like other plants some varieties use XX some use XY and others use XO or XA. life evolves and these are not strict rules that plants follow. They mingle inbetween these various states depending on not only their genetic influence but on many other factors. Cannabis is all three depending on variety. It is dio, it is mono, it is sub. It can have all in the same population.

Click to expand...

If this is true then its not a simple XY system (as in commonly known human type) as I said.

And to respond to your snark about Wikipedia being a useless tool, it is not, it is one tool among many. But what it is is also the universal tool of regurgitators everywhere, which is why I pointed out the irony.

I am not sitting at my makeshift desk in my mothers basement thinking "man I hope I can get this Beachside guy to stop acting like an over-educated pompous ass and start doing my research for me so I can get back to playing video games". This is just a pit stop in my journey from being uninformed to informed on this topic, and I hope I run into some people who can give me some good directions on where to go next. You Beachside, may or may not be the person I am looking for, yet my journey continues nonetheless.

And on a more personal note:

Dude, if you are sitting on a boat in the SF Bay why are you bothering with me right now? Shoot me a reply when you have nothing better to do, like when you're half-mast on a stink log for example, I'll live.

Dude it's cold and night here now. But I had just got back from a beer can race and am waiting on friends to show up and have a few more beers, smoke a little herb and head out for the night.
when I made my first post it was a comment regarding the movement of scientific understanding of not sex determination but wether or not the male has a use in breeding programs that cannot be replicated with a female without deleterious effect. The study about humans was just recently published and mimics previous studies that have shown likewise results with other unrelated specie. It is fascinating in humans as we are one of the most complex systems and again it is being seen in an increasing amount of varied specie. In science when we see a pattern arise we take it very seriously. It may lead no where but many things are related that appear not to be so and many great discoveries have come from the most unsuspecting of places. Nature works in patterns and evolution is no different.
From my understanding cannabis is one of the most highly evolved plant specie in the world and has a very intricate yet loose method for reproduction. I assume this has come frome intense cultivation and cross breeding from humans as we know it was one of the first plants humans honed their ag skills on. Then after thousands of years of inbreeding creating landrace strains that deal with every climate known humans took them on another journey. It is my understanding that most likely cannabis that evolved equitorialy are more like the flowering plants of the rest of the world and carry the pistil and stamin on the same flower. A perfect flower as the horticultural world is concerned but a Herman as far as pot growers have known. Then some evolved to have difinitive male and female flowers on different plants. Now they seen to be evolving to use XY apparently. That is only genetic and cannabis seams to have a high degree of adaptability. More so then other plants and this let's them walk the line between the differing sexual pathways. This is why good breeders do severe stress tests and test crosses. This lets them weed out the plants that are not strictly dio. As we saw above there are varieties of cannabis that are dio or mono or sub, but it it still possible to have individuals within a populations that is normally one but exhibits traits of another. I take from it that cannabis is very maluable and willing to do what it takes to survive and flourish.

Christ I'm high! I ment to say what I take from it is that the two groups of chromosomes, call them what you will, matter very little with cannabis reproduction. What is important is that enough indaviduals out-breeds with others as apposed to themselves to keep the future generations viable. If some scientist are finding all kinds of results then it would stand to reason it may be because all the important info is on the female or the seed producing plant. and sometimes in some selected variety the info to become a separate plant for that info arose and oly now is the plant picking a path. It looks like human influence is so great that the plant has been evolving to better help us help it. We have created more opportunity for the plant so it harnesses a stronger bond with us...it helps us breed better plants faster with the dio XY trait and then it let's us push it to its genealogical limits. One hell of a smart plant!

ddimebag said:

The reason i am interested in CS in the first place is not to make feminized seeds per se, but to be able to cross two female plants. It is a lot easier to tell if a female is worth breeding with than a male...also for people with limited number of plants and limited resources, this would allow them to do a little amateur breeding without wasting space and electricity on males. I just got some silver wire earlier this week...gonna try and make some CS one of these days and try to cross my OG Kush with my White Rhino...

So yeah, anyone know what role copper plays in determining a plants gender?

ddimebag

Click to expand...

It appears the copper is necessary for the receptors to bind the ethylene and the silver blocks or replaces the copper so that the receptors cannot detect it...


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Ethylene signal perception[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Ethylene is perceived by a family of five membrane-localized receptors that are homologous to bacterial histidine kinases involved in sensing environmental changes (Figure 2). Ethylene binding occurs at the N-terminal transmembrane domain of the receptors, and a copper co-factor is required for the binding. The system typically consists of a histidine kinase as the sensor that autophosphorylates an internal histidine residue in response to environmental signals, and a response regulator that activates the downstream components upon receiving a phosphate from the histidine residue of the sensor on its aspartate residue (Wurgler-Murphy and Saito, 1997). Five ethylene receptors exist in Arabiodpsis: ETR1, ETR2, ERS1, ERS2, and EIN4 (Chang et al. 1993; Hua et al. 1995; Hua and Meyerowitz, 1998; Sakai et al. 1998). Further characterization of ethylene binding to ETR1 has revealed that it occurs at the hydrophobic pocket located at the N- terminus of the receptors and requires a transition metal, copper, as a co-factor (Figure 2) (Schaller and Bleecker, 1995; Rodriguez et al. 1999; Wang et al. 2002). Further findings indicated that RAN1 is involved in the delivery of copper to the ethylene receptor and that this copper-delivery pathway is required to create functional ethylene receptors in plants (Figure 2) (Wang et al. 2002). Cu ions are also known to form complexes with ethylene (Coates et al. 1968). But the studies of Beyer (1976c) revealed that the effect of silver ions could be explained on the basis that silver ions substitute for Cu ions, thereby interfering with ethylene action. This may be due to the similarity in size, the same oxidation state, and the ability of both Cu ion and Ag ion to form complexes with ethylene (Coates et al. 1968). The possibility of the anti-ethylene property of silver was later well explored in various plant systems. At present there are no concrete evidences to show the involvement of silver ions with signaling networks which leads to down regulation of physiological responses governed by ethylene. Therefore, focus on the elucidation of molecular basis for diverse developmental process in plants such as abscission, flowering, fruit ripening, morphogenesis and sex expression, that are known to be regulated by silver ions, would be interesting.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Possible mechanisms of action of silver nitrate on ethylene action inhibition[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Silver ions are capable of generating ethylene insensitivity in plants (Zhao et al. 2002). Ethylene-insensitive mutations (Hall et al. 1999) and silver ions are thought to perturb the ethylene binding sites (Rodriguez et al. 1999). The ethylene receptor, ETR1, contains one ethylene-binding site per homodimer and binding is mediated by a single copper ion (Cu) present in the ethylene-binding site. The replacement of the copper co-factor by silver also serves to lock the receptor into a conformation such that it continuously represses ethylene responses (Zhao et al. 2002).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]There are different views and experimental evidences on this subject. According to one view, the ethylene action in plants is inhibited by week antagonists such as CO[SUB]2[/SUB] and strong antagonists like silver compounds. This is possibly due to oxidation of ethylene by a metal-ion enzyme system (Abeles, 1973). In Arabidopsis, insensitivity to ethylene is conferred by dominant mutation in receptors (Bleecker et al. 1988). Another hypothesis is that AgNO[SUB]3[/SUB] inhibits ethylene action by means of silver ions by reducing the receptor capacity to bind ethylene (Yang, 1985), which would result in higher titers of ethylene in the tissues, thus inhibiting the earlier steps of its own pathway. Miyazaki and Yang (1987) reported the influence of putrescine and AgNO[SUB]3[/SUB] on the competitive utilization of SAM. Bais et al. (2000b) also postulated that the utilization of SAM by putrescine for its conversion to spermidine would possibly result in a lower availability of SAM for ethylene biosynthesis (Figure 3). The introduction of ethylene antagonists into the culture media affects the level of ACC, thereby affecting ethylene levels (Gong et al. 2005).

[/SIZE]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]AgNO[SUB]3[/SUB] - a potential regulator of ethylene activity and plant growth modulator[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Vinod Kumar[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Plant Cell Biotechnology Department[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Central Food Technological Research Institute[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mysore-570 020, Karnataka State, India[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Giridhar Parvatam[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-3]
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Plant Cell Biotechnology Department[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Central Food Technological Research Institute[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mysore-570 020, Karnataka State, India[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Gokare Aswathanarayana Ravishankar[SIZE=-1]*[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Plant Cell Biotechnology Department[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Central Food Technological Research Institute[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Mysore-570 020, Karnataka State, India[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Tel: 91 821 2516501[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fax: 91 821 2517 233[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]E-mail: pcbt@cftri.res.in[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Corresponding author


​[/FONT]​

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Trousers said:

Colloidal silver does stress the plant. It causes a female to show male flowers. The pollen does not have a Y chromosome, so it can not produce a seed with an X and a Y chromosome. It is normal and natural, we are just taking advantage of it.

If you take two identical clones, make pollen with one and pollinate the other, you will get female seeds very similar to the mother. Assuming the mother is stable, the seeds will produce similar, stable plants.

You can absolutely use the pollen on other females to make crosses.
No one has offered me any solid evidence that breeding with feminized seeds would cause any problems even down the line multiple generations.

I am not saying it is a possibility, but I would like something besides specualtion.

I have made fem seeds from fem seeds and even made crosses. I will start generation two of the crosses this Spring. I'm not breeding, I am just chucking pollen. The resulting variations will be welcome.

Click to expand...

I totally agree with all you're saying other than the stress...sts or cs or more accurately silver ions replace/block/inhibit copper in the ethylene receptors which require the copper ions to bind or in other words, detect the ethylene and trigger the response to form female flowers simply put... this causes no detrimental stress responses in the plant

And to be honest I believe much more stable crosses are obtained using femmed pollen..best of both worlds...stability and heterosis

Also IME no troubles with offspring from selfing either

And here's an easier and much more effective method of feminisation of cannabis than cs

The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

This process can be used to:
A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers
E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them.

It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference.

http://planetganja.net/Ebooks/Marijuana Botany.pdf

It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.

Preparation of STS:
First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: 0.5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.

Application:
The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:
Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first.

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary.

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate.

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet.

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very carefulollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle.

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique.

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

About the chemicals:
Silver nitrate is a white crystalline light-sensitive chemical that is commonly used in photography. It is also used in babies' eyes at birth to prevent blindness. It can cause mild skin irritation, and it stains brown. Avoid breathing. I didn't notice any smell or fumes, but ventilation is recommended. Be sure to wash the spray bottle well before you use it elsewhere; better yet: devote a bottle to STS use. A half gram is a surprisingly small amount; it would fit inside a gel capsule.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

.preparation of silver thiosulfate (sts) solution

silver thiosulfate (sts) is commonly used to block the action of ethylene in plant cell cultures. Ethylene is a hormone that is present in the gaseous state. Ethylene increases during senescence and ripening, and has been shown to increase in plant cell cultures due to wounding or the presence of auxins. Silver nitrate may be used alone to block the action of ethylene but it is not transported as well as sts thus is seldom used alone.

Prepare a 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate (sts) stock solution by dissolving 1.58 g of sodium thiosulfate (product no. S 620) into 100 ml of water. Prepare a 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution by dissolving 1.7 g of silver nitrate (product no. S 169) into 100 ml of water. Store the stock solution in the dark until needed to prepare the sts.

The sts solution is prepared with a molar ratio between silver and thiosulfate of 1:4, respectively. Nearly all of the silver present in the solution is in the form of [ag (s2o3)2]3-, the active complex for ethylene effect inhibition.
Prepare a 0.02 m sts by slowly pouring 20 ml of 0.1 m silver nitrate stock solution into 80 ml of 0.1 m sodium thiosulfate stock solution. The sts can be stored in the refrigerator for up to a month. However, preparation of the sts just prior to use is recommended.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________





A SIMPLE SAFE AND INEXPENSIVE FEMMING METHOD

LINKS TO THE CHEMICALS:

sodium thiosulfate

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/124109-REG/Photographers_Formulary_10_1370_1LB_Sodium_Thiosulfate_Anhydrous.html

Silver Nitrate

http://secure.sciencecompany.com/Silver-Nitrate-10g-P6503.aspx

​WARNING ALWAYS ORDER EACH CHEMICAL SEPARATELY FROM SEPARATE VENDORS

HOPE IT HELPS...KEEP 'EM GREEN

Sychotic said:

The reason they would be similar is because you are basically inbreeding identical twins. Because of Meiosis and Crossing Over you would never get genetically identical offspring from self pollination. I would actually call this "Super Inbreeding" because the deleterious effects caused by inbreeding this way would build up faster than what is possible in human or animal inbreeding because identical twins cannot have different sexes in organisms that use X & Y chromosomes to determine sex. Some plants have X & Y chromosomes, Weed does not.

Now if by "stable" you mean a strain that is so inbred that all homologous chromosomes are exactly identical (which would be many years of careful inbreeding), then yes it is possible to overcome the meiotic process and produce genetically identical offspring. But until then you will still get the standard 50% same, 25% homozygous bad or 25% homozygous good for each trait. But even that is an oversimplification depending on whether the traits were codominant or not which makes the process more complicated than 25/50/25.

Click to expand...

That is why I said "very similar" instead of identical.
I just did not see the need to explain it further ad nauseam.

Kite High said:

I totally agree with all you're saying other than the stress...sts or cs or more accurately silver ions replace/block/inhibit copper in the ethylene receptors which require the copper ions to bind or in other words, detect the ethylene and trigger the response to form female flowers simply put... this causes no detrimental stress responses in the plant

And to be honest I believe much more stable crosses are obtained using femmed pollen..best of both worlds...stability and heterosis

Also IME no troubles with offspring from selfing either

Click to expand...

I use the word stress for lack of a better one. It creates the same result as stress.

Kite High said:

And here's an easier and much more effective method of feminisation of cannabis than cs

The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production.

Click to expand...

Colloidal silver is safe, inexpensive and successful. There is no reason for me to change methods.

Trousers said:

I use the word stress for lack of a better one. It creates the same result as stress.



Colloidal silver is safe, inexpensive and successful. There is no reason for me to change methods.

Click to expand...

was not attempting to get you to change ...just offering the option and info bro