Impossible! The deficit is falling as well as unemployment Obama wrecking economy

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
"Frns are negotiable instruments" is quoted in salman and is common law established in an article 3 court and is not quoted from 1924 anything.....it is stated matter of fact for a 2008 case...how is this an incorrect statement?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
On contracts in the Constitution the right to contract is inalienable and protected. We The People....first words in the document....then check on the contracts We the People acknowledge in the Document.......and how contracts are protected from the the inception of American Law.

You have a right to contract.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
OK now what parts of those cases .....available to the public.......excluding the ones you can't source and the Fed does not bother to source....."make your argument" that were not a part of the Milam decision as well?
US v. Gardiner: "Gardiner next asserts that he was not subject to the jurisdiction of the IRS because he did not receive ‘money’in 1970 and 1971 as the Federal Reserve Notes he received were not lawful money. Such an argument has been summarily found to be without merit, United States v. Scott, 521 F.2d 1188, 1192 (9th Cir. 1975); cf. Milam v. United States, 524 F.2d 629 (9th Cir. 1974), and we so find here."

Mathes v. CIR: "Congress has delegated the power to establish this national currency which is lawful money to the Federal Reserve System. 12 U.S.C. s 411. Congress has made the Federal Reserve note the measure of value in our monetary system, 12 U.S.C. s 412 (196 ,1 and has defined Federal Reserve notes as legal tender for taxes, 31 U.S.C. s 392 (1965). Taxpayers' attempt to devalue the Federal Reserve notes they received as income is, therefore, not lawful under the laws of the United States."

Poe v. CIR: "With respect to the capital gain realized by petitioners on the sale of their residence, they contend that the amount of deficiency determined by respondent was incorrect because the amounts they received upon the sale of their residence were in Federal Reserve notes, which are not lawful money... It is well established that Federal Reserve notes are lawful money even though not backed by gold and silver."

US v. Rickman: "Defendant argues that the Federal Reserve Notes in which he was paid were not lawful money within the meaning of Art. 1, s 8, United States Constitution. We have held to the contrary. United States v. Ware, 10 Cir., 608 F.2d 400, 402-403. We find no validity in the distinction which defendant draws between “lawful money” and “legal tender.” ... In the exercise of that power Congress has declared that Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender and are redeemable in lawful money. Defendant received Federal Reserve Notes when he cashed his pay checks and used those notes to pay his personal expenses. He obtained and used lawful money."

Bates v. US: "The standard unit of computation is the money dollar, an abstract or ideal unit of account. This standard unit of money has not changed in money value throughout the existence of our monetary system. There have been changes from time to time in the form of the physical representatives of money, but lawful money in the United States has been the same since the Act of Congress of April 2, 1792, provided that “The money of account of the United States shall be expressed in dollars or units, dimes or tenths, cents or hundredths, and mills or thousandths, a dime being the tenth part of a dollar, a cent the hundredth part of a dollar, a mill the thousandth part of a dollar * * *.”" (Decided in the 1980s, so they necessarily reference Federal Reserve Notes.)

Wilson v. US: "Plaintiffs further seek an injunction against the Internal Revenue Service...contending that federal reserve notes are not lawful money of the United States “as defined and intended by the spirit of the Constitution” and that Congress has violated the separation of powers doctrine by issuing federal reserve notes which are not redeemable in coin, thereby rendering federal reserve notes “counterfeit securities.” Pls. Brf. At ¶ 17–30, 37–39. Plaintiffs are incorrect."

Maxwell v. US: "The only thing “new” in the Motion to Alter is his assertion that the Order (Docket Entry No. 45) is unlawful because it “imposes sanctions of borrowed fiat Federal Reserve Notes (‘FRNs') or some tender other than lawful money of account of the United States” and that “[l]awful money of account is only standard weights of Coins as set by Congress[.]” (Docket Entry No. 47 at 3). Petitioner further argues that “[t]here is currently no such lawful money in general circulation or purchasable at par value by any tender that is in general circulation.” (Id. at 4). This is nonsense."

US v. Darcy: "This construction does not help defendant because her Standing Objection is without any legal or factual merit. She bases her claims of fraud and perjury on her nonsensical view that no lawful money of value is in circulation for private use by the public. As she says, “There are no lawful dollars out there only credit and debt ledger entries, and no one gets paid for anything with anything of valuable substance. The IRS can't tax credit, debt, or barter.” Standing Objection, dkt. # 11, at 1. She goes on with her explanation of “the problem”: A person getting an education loan receives a negotiable instrument that the applicant must cash at a bank where she is given Federal Reserve Notes, which are worthless.” Id. at 2."

US v. Wangrud: “For the tax years in question the defendant received checks...He now argues that he did not receive money, since the checks could be cashed only for federal reserve notes and that these are not redeemable in specie. We publish this opinion solely to make it clear that this argument has absolutely no merit. We affirm this conviction. By statute it is established that federal reserve notes, on an equal basis with other coins and currencies of the United States, shall be legal tender for all debts, public and private, including taxes. 31 U.S.C. s 392 (Supp.1976). This statute is well within the constitutional authority of Congress. U.S.Const. art. I, s 8...We have considered appellant's other argument and we find it to be without merit.”
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
"May not have been one"? Can you find one now?

Financial instruments.
Equitable instruments.

Law and equity are blended they are not the same.
We aren't even talking about a court, so totally irrelevant.

The law of negotiable instruments is old international law adopted as state law and is uniform in all 50 states do we really need a federal definition?
Prove it. You cannot because that is a fucking outright made up lie. The law of negotiable instruments is Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code, enacted as law in all fifty states.

Apparently you don't comprehend the difference between state and federal law. But we already knew that, didn't we?

Does the court or comptroller? No. We just need the banking statute and a law dictionary after we made sure we are under proper jurisdiction, thanks George Washington.
Evidently you have no idea how useless law dictionaries are because you think all words are the same. But when you don't understand the structure of the law, I could see why you would say something so foolish.

Of course this is nonsense to you because you contend FRN's are money under UCC thus are DQd from "instruments"......might want to write a letter to the Treasury and correct them fella the comptroller of the Currency and all the banks and article 3 courts are disagreeing with you, ouch.
1924 quote, Twostroke. Learn to read.

The comproller in that case (salman) was an authority on banks and banking statutes....negotiable instrument is used extensivly go find "negotiable instruments" in a definitions section of the code or in the statutes.....Iam betting you will not so where does the definition come from then? Oh yeah old maratime commercial int'l law of vessels contract law an extension of which the UCC is.
Negotiable instruments from the UCC isn't invoked at all. Again, you just cannot read. Never. Not once. No UCC. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER.

Old maritime commercial international law of vessels contract law! What the fuck is that? Nothing. A string of crackpot nonsense that means absolutely nothing.

So the UCC was adopted in 1964 eh? Shit that makes sense cause that's when the value of the money was removed except for copper in 1982 and nickel today but copper and nickel aren't lawful money now are they?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/1/article1.htm#s1-102

So now answer your own question supplemental principles of what Law????
Other principles of state law. The UCC, for example, is not supposed to speak about whether a 16-year-old can make a valid contract.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
"Frns are negotiable instruments" is quoted in salman and is common law established in an article 3 court and is not quoted from 1924 anything.....it is stated matter of fact for a 2008 case...how is this an incorrect statement?
The case is common law from an Article 3 court. What you're quoting is text from an academic monograph published in 1924, which they court cites to answer some question about fictitious financial instruments.

The court gives you its definition of a negotiable instrument in the case. Why don't you quote it for us, Twostroke, so that we can see that it has nothing to do with the UCC definition?
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
On contracts in the Constitution the right to contract is inalienable and protected. We The People....first words in the document....then check on the contracts We the People acknowledge in the Document.......and how contracts are protected from the the inception of American Law.

You have a right to contract.
Why are you telling me what's there instead of quoting the text that does all that?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
So according to tokeprep, Thomas E Holland, in The Elements of Jurisprudence 515-16 (1924) actually wrote:

"A Federal Reserve note is a negotiable instrument-it can"

So I will find that in the 13th edition of that book; verbatim; correct token? Idk if its there or not but it was not in quotes in the salman case so there are only 4 possibilities as to who said it:

Salman
Judge
Comptroller of Currency
Thomas E Holland
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
So according to tokeprep, Thomas E Holland, in The Elements of Jurisprudence 515-16 (1924) actually wrote:

"A Federal Reserve note is a negotiable instrument-it can"

So I will find that in the 13th edition of that book; verbatim; correct token? Idk if its there or not but it was not in quotes in the salman case so there are only 4 possibilities as to who said it:

Salman
Judge
Comptroller of Currency
Thomas E Holland
This is the line from the opinion: "A Federal Reserve note is a negotiable instrument-it can “pass from hand to hand, either by delivery or indorsement, giving to each successive recipient a right against the debtor.”   Thomas E. Holland, The Elements of Jurisprudence 315-16 (13th ed.1924)." Presumably the quoted text--which is from those pages in the original source--is a definition of "negotiable instrument." What else makes sense? The court applies that definition in order to establish which statute the instruments created by the defendant in this case fall under, not to find anything about whether the UCC applies to Federal Reserve Notes.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
This is the line from the opinion: "A Federal Reserve note is a negotiable instrument-it can “pass from hand to hand, either by delivery or indorsement, giving to each successive recipient a right against the debtor.”   Thomas E. Holland, The Elements of Jurisprudence 315-16 (13th ed.1924)." Presumably the quoted text--which is from those pages in the original source--is a definition of "negotiable instrument." What else makes sense? The court applies that definition in order to establish which statute the instruments created by the defendant in this case fall under, not to find anything about whether the UCC applies to Federal Reserve Notes.
Why do Ineed you to tell me what "the line from the opinion" is? Why do you think you are clearing something up all you did was admit its not there...but we already knew that cause it weren't in quotes.

presumably the text-which is rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr RRRRRR
Is a defenition of negotiable instrument?? Your argument rests on presumption that's your whole problem in a nutshell....commercial law applies to all your court cases....if you endorse fed notes they are assumed to be "lawful money" cause they now may be used as "deposits" or "reserves" because they are bonded.......banks love to buy bonds....isn't that the central banks main function?

You are flat out wrong and you know it.......you think your way makes sense the most sense would be made if that opinion slid the quote over to the left, past the hyphen, to include "negotiable instrument" and "federal reserve note".

But it didn't did it?

That makes no sense why exactly?

The list still stands you claim Thomas E Holland made that quote now prove that.
 

blacksun

New Member
This thread is pretty funny to look back on, now that an entire city tried to file for bankruptcy.

Did that ever happen during lil'bush's terms?
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
Only yesterday I heard el presidente speaking of "being followed in stores" and ppl "locked their car doors" when he walked near.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
So detroit is going to file bankruptcy.....fdr set such a good example...wait isn't that a "benefit"of commercial paper currency; to have limited liability?

Detroit llc.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Only yesterday I heard el presidente speaking of "being followed in stores" and ppl "locked their car doors" when he walked near.
LOL I was in Canton, Ohio walking across traffic stopped at a light and I could hear people hit their power locks as I got near. MUST have been my whiteness coupled with my khaki slacks and polo shirt that gave me that hoodlum image.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
Why do Ineed you to tell me what "the line from the opinion" is? Why do you think you are clearing something up all you did was admit its not there...but we already knew that cause it weren't in quotes.

presumably the text-which is rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr RRRRRR
You're implying that I'm distorting the text. I'm not. I said the court is presumably quoting a definition of negotiable instrument from a treatise.

Is a defenition of negotiable instrument?? Your argument rests on presumption that's your whole problem in a nutshell....commercial law applies to all your court cases....if you endorse fed notes they are assumed to be "lawful money" cause they now may be used as "deposits" or "reserves" because they are bonded.......banks love to buy bonds....isn't that the central banks main function?
Again, a treatise is an academic monograph. It is not law. The court's quoting this treatise does not establish that Federal Reserve Notes are negotiable instruments under the UCC, which is what you don't seem to comprehend. The treatise originated in the middle of the 1800s and the edition the court quotes was published decades before Article 3 of the UCC was enacted--it could not possibly be referencing the UCC. The court didn't mention the UCC either.

Federal Reserve Notes can be "negotiable instruments" for the purpose of a federal statute without being "negotiable instruments" under state-enacted law that specifically defines negotiable instruments. This is what you cannot seem to grasp--you are under the impression that definitions are universally applicable.

This is just another expression of your ignorance of how the American legal system operates. There isn't necessarily one definition or one reading of a statute; indeed, there can literally be dozens at the same time. The precedents of district courts are only binding in the districts; if I get a district court in California to rule that gay marriage bans are unconstitutional, a district court in New York is not bound to reach the same conclusion. If we had cases all over the country, we could have certain districts where gay marriage bans are unconstitutional and other districts where they are constitutional--at exactly the same time--even though we're talking about exactly the same set of documents.

[Caveat: This is why your suggestion that the United States Code is "updated" for court cases and/or an accurate reflection of present law is totally absurd--present law is often several different readings of the same law; the code is just the code, supplemented by court cases interpreting it; with the constitution, all of them together constitute "the law."]

Practically this did not happen because the circuit courts immediately took the issue and passed it to the supremes, but if you want a real life example where this happens, see securities (stocks and bonds) and bankruptcy. Even though they're talking about the same constitution and the same statutes, different district and circuit courts have different precedents operating at exactly the same time, such that what might be a "security" in one place in the United States is not necessarily a "security" in another; likewise, the circuit courts have interpreted parts of the bankruptcy code totally differently--even though they're looking at exactly the same text--such that big corporations almost universally file their bankruptcy cases in a few select courts bound to precedents they like.

You are flat out wrong and you know it.......you think your way makes sense the most sense would be made if that opinion slid the quote over to the left, past the hyphen, to include "negotiable instrument" and "federal reserve note".

But it didn't did it?

That makes no sense why exactly?

The list still stands you claim Thomas E Holland made that quote now prove that.
That's not what I said at all. I said the court is quoting a definition of negotiable instruments from the treatise.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
LOL I was in Canton, Ohio walking across traffic stopped at a light and I could hear people hit their power locks as I got near. MUST have been my whiteness coupled with my khaki slacks and polo shirt that gave me that hoodlum image.
Just yesterday, I walked by an expensive camera just as a woman had walked five feet away from it, and she nervously looked down to ensure her camera was still there. But don't tell Obama, because old white women evidently only do that kind of thing to black men.

I would also point out that my grandmother has always been a dedicated car locker. If anyone walks anywhere close to her car, she immediately locks her doors.
 

twostrokenut

Well-Known Member
You're implying that I'm distorting the text. I'm not. I said the court is presumably quoting a definition of negotiable instrument from a treatise.



Again, a treatise is an academic monograph. It is not law. The court's quoting this treatise does not establish that Federal Reserve Notes are negotiable instruments under the UCC, which is what you don't seem to comprehend. The treatise originated in the middle of the 1800s and the edition the court quotes was published decades before Article 3 of the UCC was enacted--it could not possibly be referencing the UCC. The court didn't mention the UCC either.

Federal Reserve Notes can be "negotiable instruments" for the purpose of a federal statute without being "negotiable instruments" under state-enacted law that specifically defines negotiable instruments. This is what you cannot seem to grasp--you are under the impression that definitions are universally applicable.

This is just another expression of your ignorance of how the American legal system operates. There isn't necessarily one definition or one reading of a statute; indeed, there can literally be dozens at the same time. The precedents of district courts are only binding in the districts; if I get a district court in California to rule that gay marriage bans are unconstitutional, a district court in New York is not bound to reach the same conclusion. If we had cases all over the country, we could have certain districts where gay marriage bans are unconstitutional and other districts where they are constitutional--at exactly the same time--even though we're talking about exactly the same set of documents.

[Caveat: This is why your suggestion that the United States Code is "updated" for court cases and/or an accurate reflection of present law is totally absurd--present law is often several different readings of the same law; the code is just the code, supplemented by court cases interpreting it; with the constitution, all of them together constitute "the law."]

Practically this did not happen because the circuit courts immediately took the issue and passed it to the supremes, but if you want a real life example where this happens, see securities (stocks and bonds) and bankruptcy. Even though they're talking about the same constitution and the same statutes, different district and circuit courts have different precedents operating at exactly the same time, such that what might be a "security" in one place in the United States is not necessarily a "security" in another; likewise, the circuit courts have interpreted parts of the bankruptcy code totally differently--even though they're looking at exactly the same text--such that big corporations almost universally file their bankruptcy cases in a few select courts bound to precedents they like.



That's not what I said at all. I said the court is quoting a definition of negotiable instruments from the treatise.
So the court "is presumably qouting" or is the court "quoting" and where is your quote? Court sourced theirs and your quoted definition is imaginary....court didn't quote the definition the equitable side just stated it matter of factly. Nice fail.
 

tokeprep

Well-Known Member
So the court "is presumably qouting" or is the court "quoting" and where is your quote? Court sourced theirs and your quoted definition is imaginary....court didn't quote the definition the equitable side just stated it matter of factly. Nice fail.
The quotation marks indicate that they are directly quoting from the source. If you don't understand what quotation marks mean, you're hopeless.
 
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