Let's Debate

beardo

beardo

Well-Known Member
ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:
You can't prove god does not exist
When having a conversation with a religious person, you may often here the argument, "You can't prove god does not exist," and they are right. You also cannot prove that unicorns, leprechauns, hobbits, little green men from mars, or any super natural beings don't exist either. That does not mean it makes sense to believe in them.
A simple answer to this argument is "Does it makes sense to believe in something just because you can't prove it false?" If so then we should believe in anything super natural. Sadly, this is the position some people take.
A more logical position is to examine the evidence and make a decision based on reasoning. Unfortunately, a lot of people are taught to believe a religion from a very young age and believe regardless of what makes sense. They grow up in an environment where not believing is just not even an option that occurs to them.
If you believe a religion, try applying the logic and reasoning you use in everyday life, and apply that to your religion. Does it make since that a man died and came back to life, does it makes sense that a desert nomad had some direct connection to a magic man in the sky. Or does it make more sense that these stories are manmade?
Actions are more important than belief
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Copy and Paste rules!
Plagrisim make people seem smart.
  1. TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PRESUPPOSITIONALIST (I)
    (1) If reason exists then God exists.
    (2) Reason exists.
    (3) Therefore, God exists.
  2. COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (I)
    (1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
    (2) I say the universe must have a cause.
    (3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
    (4) Therefore, God exists.
  3. ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
 
Marlboro47

Marlboro47

Well-Known Member
Proof that God is real:
God came to earth, and became the flesh of man through the Virgin Mary.
Why he came in the flesh of man? To die for our sins(otherwise he could not die).
The holy bible is documented proof of Gods actions and words on earth.
There were many "Athiests"(anti-christs) before you, and they wouldn't of let this doctrine live if it was false because of their logical reasoning.

Edit- Now you can't prove he doesn't exist because then you'd have to prove that I don't exist.
 
karri0n

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Charlie Who? said:
Atheism always (read my lips, ALWAYS) stems from this ME as Center of the Universe perspective. Ego. "IF there were a God, I would KNOW it. I dont know it, therefore, there IS NO GOD."
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Considering the biological differences between people, difference in how people react to emotional stimuli, intelligence, and how people process information, have you stopped to consider that some people truly might not be able to feel the divine? Perhaps there are indeed people that no particular god connects with, due to the persons's lack of ability to make a spiritual connection with the divine. In this situation, it is logical to not be convinced of the existence of gods. It's true that human experience cannot be trusted scientifically, and the personal nature of spiritual experience mostly prevents(at least for now the collection of empirical evidence for various spiritual phenomena. The dismissal of the possibility of a od or spiritual phenomena, however is irrational. Nevertheless, as a Pagan, you should realize that the beliefs of atheists are just as valid and acceptable, and if that's the belief system that works for the person, then it is correct.

Charlie Who? said:
Thus, the enduring respect for the Great Mother. Is it an accident that men spend their lives striving to get back IN to the Great Pussy from whence they came?

The "sex drive" is actually Man's attempt to re-unite with God, Herself. Fortunately, every Woman carries with her this Sacred Portal to the Goddess.

Seriously....dont you see that the moment of orgasm/ejaculation IS the Big Bang? In Human-size terms? To be IN that moment of mindless-but-complete creative ecstacy IS the closest we can come (no pun intended) to being WITH Her at the moment She said, "let there be Light"?

Why do men strive to become rich? To get pussy. Why does a man buy a Rolex? To get pussy. Why does a man go to war? To get pussy. A man will do pretty much anything, lie, steal, cheat, whatever it takes.....for Pussy. Pussy is The Holy Grail. Why?

Any man who believes in Pussy believes in God. He just doesnt know why. It's because on a primal level, every man knows the Goddess is Everything. The Pussy represents the Goddess, the Giver of Life, The Great Mother. The oldest of the Gods of Man. We all came from it....and spend all our lives trying to get back into it. The reason is symbolic. We may THINK, "Man...Im sure horny. I sure need me some PUSSY!" But IF we were able to really see into the depths, deep into the layers of the Onion (so to speak), we'd know what we really crave is to be re-united with God, if for only a few seconds. In this physical body, a couple of seconds of extacy and a squirt orr two is the best we can do to Create. it's a poor, tiny substitute for the Real Thing, the Creation of a Universe....but hey, it's better than nothing and it drives us from puberty til death.
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If the desire for pussy is man's atempt at reconnection to the divine(represented by the Goddess in this case), then why do women crave dick? It would behoove you to remember that both ancient and modern paganism embraced a balance, the duality between male and female. The Mother Earth cannot create without the energy of Father Sun. The goddess provides the potential for creation, but the god provides the impetus, motivation, and drive. A spiritual practice which does not recognize the importance of both will lead to imbalance, and this can manifest both psychologically and spiritually.

Charlie Who? said:
In the beginning was/is The Mother. Early humans assumed That Which Creates Life must be Female. Our First God was The Great Mother.
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Are you certain about that? In early cultures that we find "venus"(not the greek goddess, but pregnant, fertile earth mother)statues, we also find statues and evidence of phallus worship as well.

Nearly all cultures have a localized version of the Horned One, the lord of animals and the forest, which stem from the hunter/gatherer cultures of pre-agricultural times. Once cultures become agriculturally based, The worship switches over to a reverence for the earth mother and sky father. The defining characteristic in each of these is always balance.

I must say, it's quite refreshing to see a pagan in this section, and I also find it quite interesting that it appears you tend to identify with the divine feminine, while my worship tends to focus more on the divine masculine.

Charlie Who? said:
Come on. Christianity was born of politics,. not spirituality.
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Early Christianity was born of rebellion against the current regime - the highly politicized religion of the Jewish.. It was shamanic and raw and quite based in spirituality, exceptionally so for the times.

Charlie Who? said:
I dont give a rat's ass if you or anyone else decides to call himself an atheist. I mind hell out of the ignorence of believing the alternative is being a Christian. Trust me, there are any number of alternatives to Christianity. Before deciding there is No God, you might devote a bit of time to the study of the OTHER religions....Buddhism, Hinduism are a good start. (not to even mention Conducianism, Jainism, Taoism, the Soufs, et.etc.etc.) If those dont appeal, look into the Native American religions, the African religions, the Australian Aborigine beliefs, and if all those fail and you're a white guy of western European descent, you might just be a Pagan at heart.

That you even assume the two sides of the issue are Christianity and/or atheism
as if NO other alternatives count reveals way too much ignorence on your part.. You're just yet another of the many who dont buy the Christian mythology and jump to the conclusion, "if that aint so, then there aint no god.".

HINT: There are as many Paths to God as there are people looking for God.
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Well Said. This is the reason I post in this section. It's good to see someone who understands this.
 
Charlie Who?

Charlie Who?

Active Member
ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:
at charlie who ....................lol so everyone will get one of these personal experiences with this god of yours or is it only special people like you ? my mum has not gotten one yet and shes in her 80s

i think your halucinating .
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Nah. Everybody BUT you. And yer mom.


CW
 
Charlie Who?

Charlie Who?

Active Member
beardo said:
Sativa has pretty weak debating and reasoning potential- must not have been particuarly gifted by God in that department
I thought he was supposed to be the great debator?
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You nailed it.

Like my dad used to say, "never argue with a fool. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing---wastes your time and annoys hell out of the pig."

CW
 
Charlie Who?

Charlie Who?

Active Member
karri0n said:
Considering the biological differences between people, difference in how people react to emotional stimuli, intelligence, and how people process information, have you stopped to consider that some people truly might not be able to feel the divine? Perhaps there are indeed people that no particular god connects with, due to the persons's lack of ability to make a spiritual connection with the divine. In this situation, it is logical to not be convinced of the existence of gods. It's true that human experience cannot be trusted scientifically, and the personal nature of spiritual experience mostly prevents(at least for now the collection of empirical evidence for various spiritual phenomena. The dismissal of the possibility of a od or spiritual phenomena, however is irrational. Nevertheless, as a Pagan, you should realize that the beliefs of atheists are just as valid and acceptable, and if that's the belief system that works for the person, then it is correct.



If the desire for pussy is man's atempt at reconnection to the divine(represented by the Goddess in this case), then why do women crave dick? It would behoove you to remember that both ancient and modern paganism embraced a balance, the duality between male and female. The Mother Earth cannot create without the energy of Father Sun. The goddess provides the potential for creation, but the god provides the impetus, motivation, and drive. A spiritual practice which does not recognize the importance of both will lead to imbalance, and this can manifest both psychologically and spiritually.



Are you certain about that? In early cultures that we find "venus"(not the greek goddess, but pregnant, fertile earth mother)statues, we also find statues and evidence of phallus worship as well.

Nearly all cultures have a localized version of the Horned One, the lord of animals and the forest, which stem from the hunter/gatherer cultures of pre-agricultural times. Once cultures become agriculturally based, The worship switches over to a reverence for the earth mother and sky father. The defining characteristic in each of these is always balance.

I must say, it's quite refreshing to see a pagan in this section, and I also find it quite interesting that it appears you tend to identify with the divine feminine, while my worship tends to focus more on the divine masculine.



Early Christianity was born of rebellion against the current regime - the highly politicized religion of the Jewish.. It was shamanic and raw and quite based in spirituality, exceptionally so for the times.



Well Said. This is the reason I post in this section. It's good to see someone who understands this.
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Thanks. Me, too.
I completely agree---I wasnt discounting the Male half. Not by any means! I was trying to introduce the concept of the Female half into this discussion where God has been consistantly referred to as "He". It seems easiest for folks to automatically use the "He/Him" and never even consider the possibility of a "She/Her".

Actually, I dont see why the Creator should have any gender at all. In fact, perhaps where people went wrong about God was in the assumption God is a Being. Perhaps God isnt a noun, but a Verb. God Happens. The manifestation of that Happenning is all of Nature and the physical (and non-physical) Universe. The Manifestor not a Being, but Consciousness, ITself.

CW






CW
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Charlie Who? said:
You nailed it.

Like my dad used to say, "never argue with a fool. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing---wastes your time and annoys hell out of the pig."

CW
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Yep, so much easier to dismiss a dissenter as a fool rather than give actual answers that will show the weakness in your argument. You are so typical of the religionist, instead of actual debate and defending your position, you resort to a simple ad hominem attack. Seems to me that you are acting the part of the pig in the parable.
 
karri0n

karri0n

Well-Known Member
mindphuk said:
Yep, so much easier to dismiss a dissenter as a fool rather than give actual answers that will show the weakness in your argument. You are so typical of the religionist, instead of actual debate and defending your position, you resort to a simple ad hominem attack. Seems to me that you are acting the part of the pig in the parable.
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Disingenuous reply. Have you read any of ThE sAtIvA hIgH's posts in this thread? He's a moron or a troll or probably both.
 
Heisenberg

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
I have to agree, the OP has done a poor job at representing his side while simultaneously bragging about his unchallengeable debate skills. I had assumed that is why this is one atheist themed thread that the usual atheists have mostly stayed out of. I did not feel the need to support anything sativa said, despite agreeing with a lot of it. But I also remember a time when I was not so good at expressing what I wanted to say, and debating in forums helped me to get better. So I would encourage sativa to continue, but maybe consider dropping the attitude and putting some thought into why he may be right, instead of only focusing on why others are wrong. It doesn't matter which side of a debate you are on, if you use tricks and fall victim to the inherit pitfalls of argument, you are invalid.

Also as I've said before, debating is not a contest. The goal of debate is essentially to exchange ideas and gain a better understanding of another's perspective. If both sides begin at the same place on a subject, agree on terms and logic, then both sides should reach the same conclusions. By debating we can learn where opinions diverge and why; at no point should the goal of debate be to win.
 
mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
karri0n said:
Disingenuous reply. Have you read any of ThE sAtIvA hIgH's posts in this thread? He's a moron or a troll or probably both.
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Not disingenuous. Regardless of his attitude, no one actually engaged him to any great extent and I saw no problem with his ability to reason. Also, considering the two people criticizing him have demonstrated a lack of reasoning ability, I don't think it's as lopsided as you make it out to be.

We've already discussed Beardo and his vagina argument. Now Charlie Who criticizes gnostic atheists because they think they 'know' something but then praises the gnostic Xians for their insight....????
 
olylifter420

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
im still waiting for the OP's reply to my questions...





olylifter420 said:
ok smart ass, why or how were we selected to be put on this specific planet? why this solar system? Why this sun? Why was the sun the center of the solar system? Why is the sun the color it is, not something different? why were you not born hundreds if not thousands if not millions of years ago??

answer me that

i cant wait to see what you have to say
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mindphuk

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
olylifter420 said:
im still waiting for the OP's reply to my questions...
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Maybe he hasn't answered because you are assuming an answer in your question. Why do you think we were 'selected' for this planet and solar system? What does the color of the sun have to do with anything? Why weren't you born thousands of years in the future? Your questions are meaningless because they don't have any real answers unless you make certain assumptions. Why can't things be just the way they are because that's the way they are?
 
karri0n

karri0n

Well-Known Member
Charlie Who? said:
Actually, I dont see why the Creator should have any gender at all. In fact, perhaps where people went wrong about God was in the assumption God is a Being. Perhaps God isnt a noun, but a Verb. God Happens. The manifestation of that Happenning is all of Nature and the physical (and non-physical) Universe. The Manifestor not a Being, but Consciousness, ITself.

CW






CW
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Absolutely. I don't feel that a gender or a separation into genders is necessary, but when divinity IS split into genders(such as in the "goddess worship" aspects of some modern pagan beliefs, or the patriarchal focus of the Abrahamic religions), then both sides need to be acknowledged.
 
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