Maine Town to 'Require' gun ownership?

I would say that hinges on who defines "coercive", and how. It is a soft term open to interpretation. One person's coercion is another's guidance. cn

Me thinks, certain Doctors and Marines do not understand the non -INITIATION of Aggression principle.

Coercion is when there is an "or else" given to somebody to make them do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. The person being coerced is the victim, the person doing the coercion is the aggressor. The assumption is that one person "started it", and another is minding their own business.

Now to answer the Doctor...What about murder? If a person murders, THAT person, did what? They initiated aggression. it is perfectly okay to use DEFENSIVE aggression against a person that "starts it". Even little kids know this...geez.

Also the "government" is not there primarily to defend the helpless. They are there to benefit themselves and their cronies. The government business model relies upon coercion. Even Super daddy George Washington admitted that much and we know he wouldn't lie, because he chopped down a cherry tree and 'fessed up to it.
 
Defend is pretty vague, and what do you mean by coercive? Just because you don't like being made to do something doesn't make it inherently bad.


What IS inherently bad? It is to be the person or entity that does what ?


You never answered the question. Do people have a right to defend themselves against an aggressor ?
 
Me thinks, certain Doctors and Marines do not understand the non -INITIATION of Aggression principle.

Coercion is when there is an "or else" given to somebody to make them do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. The person being coerced is the victim, the person doing the coercion is the aggressor. The assumption is that one person "started it", and another is minding their own business.

Now to answer the Doctor...What about murder? If a person murders, THAT person, did what? They initiated aggression. it is perfectly okay to use DEFENSIVE aggression against a person that "starts it". Even little kids know this...geez.

Also the "government" is not there primarily to defend the helpless. They are there to benefit themselves and their cronies. The government business model relies upon coercion. Even Super daddy George Washington admitted that much and we know he wouldn't lie, because he chopped down a cherry tree and 'fessed up to it.

My mother was a card carrying LP member when I was a kid; trust me, I'm all too aware of where you're coming from. I am aware self-defense is totally okay. While you may not be a fan of "coercion" you don't agree with, fact is that we do live in a society beyond our personal wants. While our laws have been, and will continue at times to be, manipulated for bad reasons; that is hardly a reason to paint many valuable social services and the progress and utility that such "coercion" has facilitated with the same brush.

Like many things, our system is imperfect. Fortunately, there are means of changing how our system works. Keep in mind though, you live in a society beyond yourself and what you want. You were born here due to some cosmic coin flip; due to this, you are bound by the laws of the land. You can oppose the laws and attempt to garner the support to change things, or you can buck the system and deal with the consequences. I'm rooting for you, but I don't think we are evolved enough as a whole to reliably depend on people to consistently behave as you expect on good faith alone.
 
What IS inherently bad? It is to be the person or entity that does what ?


You never answered the question. Do people have a right to defend themselves against an aggressor ?

Assuming the aggressor is someone trying to kill you, and not law enforcement apprehending a serial killer in his home, yes.
 
My mother was a card carrying LP member when I was a kid; trust me, I'm all too aware of where you're coming from. I am aware self-defense is totally okay. While you may not be a fan of "coercion" you don't agree with, fact is that we do live in a society beyond our personal wants. While our laws have been, and will continue at times to be, manipulated for bad reasons; that is hardly a reason to paint many valuable social services and the progress and utility that such "coercion" has facilitated with the same brush.

Like many things, our system is imperfect. Fortunately, there are means of changing how our system works. Keep in mind though, you live in a society beyond yourself and what you want. You were born here due to some cosmic coin flip; due to this, you are bound by the laws of the land. You can oppose the laws and attempt to garner the support to change things, or you can buck the system and deal with the consequences. I'm rooting for you, but I don't think we are evolved enough as a whole to reliably depend on people to consistently behave as you expect on good faith alone.


If a so called "service" is imposed on a person is it still a service? How does that work?
 
If a so called "service" is imposed on a person is it still a service? How does that work?

I don't see how my choice of local fire department effects how much of a service it is if my house is no fire, no. A service is dictated by need, not how voluntary it is.
 
I don't see how my local fire department gets funded will have an effect on how much of a service it is if my house is no fire, no.


There are such things as volunteer fire departments and I think the first fire companies were funded by the users, similar to insurance.

So what you are saying is in SOME instances it is okay for a person to take your money, IF they provide a service they belieive is "for your own good" ?
 
There are such things as volunteer fire departments and I think the first fire companies were funded by the users, similar to insurance.

So what you are saying is in SOME instances it is okay for a person to take your money, IF they provide a service they belieive is "for your own good" ?

I edited that post a bit, because I realized it didn't quite convey what I wanted it to. I'm not sure how much that may effect your response. I'll field this too though.

If you want to talk about the original private firefighters; they were known for rushing to put out fires, and robbing the house in the process. They were also known for getting into huge brawls in the street and camouflaging fireplugs to prevent competing firefighting groups from putting out the fires first, Gangs of New York style. While the example I was giving would probably be more apt for police or wildland firefighters, I think you get the gist of what I meant there.

As far as your question about taking my money for something they think is good. In SOME instances, yes. I see the usefulness in the services generally known as "welfare", interstate highway systems, plows for my roads, schools for our kids, police to catch bad people, and various defensive projects to keep me safe. Accordingly, If I don't like how my money is being used; I would vote differently, sign a petition, email my congressman, or somehow work within the system we have to change it.
 
There are such things as volunteer fire departments and I think the first fire companies were funded by the users, similar to insurance.

So what you are saying is in SOME instances it is okay for a person to take your money, IF they provide a service they belieive is "for your own good" ?

Yeah, that was one way, but the owners' hiring came later. In American cities when this came in, it was Privateers. Sanctioned looters. Save the building, carry off the "water damage."

If two of these Private Engine Companies rushed to the same fire, often a gang fight would break out between them, while the building and loot was burning.
 
Me thinks, certain Doctors and Marines do not understand the non -INITIATION of Aggression principle.

Coercion is when there is an "or else" given to somebody to make them do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. The person being coerced is the victim, the person doing the coercion is the aggressor. The assumption is that one person "started it", and another is minding their own business.

Now to answer the Doctor...What about murder? If a person murders, THAT person, did what? They initiated aggression. it is perfectly okay to use DEFENSIVE aggression against a person that "starts it". Even little kids know this...geez.

Also the "government" is not there primarily to defend the helpless. They are there to benefit themselves and their cronies. The government business model relies upon coercion. Even Super daddy George Washington admitted that much and we know he wouldn't lie, because he chopped down a cherry tree and 'fessed up to it.


But Richard Alan Davis didnt sign anything making him subject to laws against child murder and lollie rape, so theres "No Controlling Legal Authority" and his activities didnt harm YOU or ME directly so even if we see him in mid-rape we cant initiate force against him, 'cause then we would be imposing our morality on his special snowflakieness.


the OR ELSE is essential to deterr those malefactors who would do us harm. even in a lonely fronteir cabin, the threat was always there, even with no cops in sight, "Dont Even Think About Stealing My Horse, OR ELSE!" you do not defend yourself your property and your family from evildoers with firmly worded lectures on "Non-Initiation Of Force" you do it with a pistol, a rifle a shotgun, a tomahawk, a woodcutters axe, a spear, a bow, a rock or your fists.

the threat is always there, if you try to rob me i will kick your ass, stab you in the neck, or shoot you dead depending on the disposition of my gun and knife. for those who do NOT have the ability to defend themselves there are cops. for disputes not involving the need for immediate violence there are the courts.

blaming the entire existence of governments and their duty to protect the helpless from the harmful because our current government is failing it's ideals, and the theoreticians (yourself included) who demand perfection or dissolution are declaring our constitution a failed experiment is just pointless. our government reaches too far into places where they do not belong, and fail to perform the simple shit they SHOULD do (like securing the borders) but this does not invalidate the constitution, nor does it prove that the entiree american system must be dissolved, and then "something else" be created in it's place.

we can either FIX OUR SYSTEM by demanding they adhere to the constitution and founding principles, or we can stfu and move to cuba france or canada.
 
Kp,

One of the worst arsonists was a public fire fighter who investigated his own arson. I wonder why he never caught himself sooner?
 
Kp,

One of the worst arsonists was a public fire fighter who investigated his own arson. I wonder why he never caught himself sooner?

That's interesting, but not totally shocking. Best way to get away with an arson would be to become a firefighter. What was his name?
 
That's interesting, but not totally shocking. Best way to get away with an arson would be to become a firefighter. What was his name?

Protip: theres been several.

its not commonly announced, but i can think of 4 guys in cali over the last 10 years.

they dont usually get thrown in jail, they get "retired" or get shifted to a different company of jurisdiction, but they rarely go to jail.

like diddling priests or dirty cops, nobody wants to reveal that the guys supposedly porotecting us are in fact compulsive firebugs.

Checkem: http://www.academia.edu/729650/Defining_the_Firefighter_Arson_Problem_A_Research_Note


its a worldwide problem.
 
I don't see how my choice of local fire department effects how much of a service it is if my house is no fire, no. A service is dictated by need, not how voluntary it is.

I think you are overlooking a key component of what a service consists of....

Mutual contracts create service agreements. In other words the consumer of the service and the provider of the service enter into an agreement without any coercion, threats, etc.

Unilateral "contracts" create an "or else" situation from the very outset.. In other words a unilateral "contract" does NOT embrace the tenets of what a service is - mutual agreement.

Which kinds of organizations have as part of their business model the imposition of "services" thru a one sided agreement? I can think of two, the mafia and governments.

Question - What distinguishes a service from an imposition ? Answer - Agreement of the parties involved = service.


I think many people have been duped into the oxymoronic mindset that somehow a "service" can occur if one of the parties involved declines to participate. A service can only occur if consent is present. See what happens when government gets to redefine the language?
 
I think you are overlooking a key component of what a service consists of....

Mutual contracts create service agreements. In other words the consumer of the service and the provider of the service enter into an agreement without any coercion, threats, etc.

Unilateral "contracts" create an "or else" situation from the very outset.. In other words a unilateral "contract" does NOT embrace the tenets of what a service is - mutual agreement.

Which kinds of organizations have as part of their business model the imposition of "services" thru a one sided agreement? I can think of two, the mafia and governments.

Question - What distinguishes a service from an imposition ? Answer - Agreement of the parties involved = service.


I think many people have been duped into the oxymoronic mindset that somehow a "service" can occur if one of the parties involved declines to participate. A service can only occur if consent is present. See what happens when government gets to redefine the language?

A service is dictated by it's usefulness; unless you redefine "useful", it doesn't change. While you dispute how the service is provided, that does not detract directly from it's usefulness. Governments don't change languages, usage changes them. Your issue seems to lie within how said services are provided (Which doesn't dictate what a service is.), versus what is provided (Which actually dictates whether or not something is a service.)
 
A service is dictated by it's usefulness; unless you redefine "useful", it doesn't change. While you dispute how the service is provided, that does not detract directly from it's usefulness. Governments don't change languages, usage changes them. Your issue seems to lie within how said services are provided (Which doesn't dictate what a service is.), versus what is provided (Which actually dictates whether or not something is a service.)


Good morning.

Okay, I'll expand on your thoughts of what constitutes a "service" . You claim the end result creates the service, and the origin is not important?

A man steal your wallet and remodels your kitchen. Did he provide you a service?
 
Good morning.

Okay, I'll expand on your thoughts of what constitutes a "service" . You claim the end result creates the service, and the origin is not important?

A man steal your wallet and remodels your kitchen. Did he provide you a service?

That's an oversimplification. In a situation where you aren't the only person here; taxation isn't as simple as stealing from you to remodel a kitchen. It's more like a guy stealing from you to remodel a kitchen that exists because the guy who is stealing from you made it possible to build your house in the first place. We are more than just the sum of our parts.
 
That's an oversimplification. In a situation where you aren't the only person here; taxation isn't as simple as stealing from you to remodel a kitchen. It's more like a guy stealing from you to remodel a kitchen that exists because the guy who is stealing from you made it possible to build your house in the first place. We are more than just the sum of our parts.

I don't think it is an oversimplification. I think you cannot refute it and slid into a rationalization for coercion and theft. You imply that some people, are "more equal" than others and do not have to abide by the non initiation of aggression principle.

The guy that is stealing from you in the first place made it possible for many people NOT to build a house too, didn't he?

The rest of your post rests on the mythology of the "social contract".

Stefan Molyneux has a good video that dismantles the social contract in less than 5 minutes, please consider checking it out.


[h=3]The Social Contract: Defined and Destroyed in under 5 mins ...[/h]
► 4:58► 4:58


www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNj0VhK19QU
 
I don't think it is an oversimplification. I think you cannot refute it and slid into a rationalization for coercion and theft. You imply that some people, are "more equal" than others and do not have to abide by the non initiation of aggression principle.

The guy that is stealing from you in the first place made it possible for many people NOT to build a house too, didn't he?

The rest of your post rests on the mythology of the "social contract".

Stefan Molyneux has a good video that dismantles the social contract in less than 5 minutes, please consider checking it out.

It's more a recognition that people are not always prone to thinking beyond the end of their nose. The fact is, there's a reason we moved away from a more individual system.

For the sake of argument though, let's say your ideal system was how the US was ran. Please, describe it to me; perhaps I'm not understanding (or assuming incorrectly) how your system would work. I'd like the idea of a general goodwill dictating society, but I don't honestly see how it would work. Perhaps I'd be more inclined to see your viewpoint if I could better envision the way you see things working.
 
You need to keep in mind that maine isnt a progressive liberal state like say california first of all secondly i can speak from first hand knowledge that alot of the natives here grew up with a damn shotgun under there beds! Sheet i can remember when there was a rifle in every closet of our house! Never had a an issue with firearms just stupid fucken humans who take any chance at getting ahead of people there jealous of (thieves who steal) or to feed there addiction. Its always kinda been commo knowledge up here that if you take the chance in stealing especially on someone's property expect to be shot at or killed for your trouble! This past week in a larger town in a state very close to maine two robber broke into an occupied dwelling one was shot immediatley by the homeowner and killed the other was wounded and fighting for his life. Do i feel sorry for them? lol, hells no! they got there juju they deserved. You want to carry a firearm go ahead, if you cant handle the responsibility, it'll show quickly anyway!
 
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