Make no mistake: Medicare for All would cut taxes for most Americans

Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
1. No I don't have specialized knowledge of the insurance industry, but I am able to use the internet to find the info I need. Here's an article to support my assertion for your reference: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/05/top-health-insurers-profit-surge-29-percent-to-6-billion-dollars.html

2. Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind.
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Totally agree with you that health care "insurance" companies don't add value to the healthcare industry and therefore are simply raking in profits for no good reason. Healthcare services should be nationalized and funded by the government. Of course, Bernie's bill doesn't do this but that's a different matter.

I'd appreciate if you could cite a source that confirms you claims about immigration. I don't know why you make such a big deal about it but at least you could give us a the source for that statistic.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I think that was going a bit off the deep end Burt, Foggy is an ideologue and his motives are not based on his evaluation of other's worthiness for healthcare. He simply believes that the method of delivery of these services and how they are paid for is different than that which we believe. He grew up in America and absorbed the ideas in his culture, just like we did in Canada. Calling someone who differs from you in relatively small ways names does not win friends an influence people! I reserve name calling for those who actively defend and promote the hatred and suffering in other people based on bullshit. The trolls, bigots antisocial personalities and revenge psycho socks are on the receiving end, if I made a mistake I make amends, like with you. It's different than fighting a war against let's say Germany during the second world war, there the innocent were caught up with the guilty until the war ended. I'm Canadian and so are you, this is largely an American issue, we have it covered already.
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Nope, you guys are off the deep end.

The wealthy don't live as you and I do. I'm not saying this is right and proper, I'm just recognizing that this is so and it doesn't really matter if they do. What I advocate for in the US is at least the same good care you Canadians get. Do you actually think a billionaire would not have anything less than a private room, a pick of the best doctors private nurse and so forth? He would pay for it himself, of course. Are you really saying that in Canada, a guy with a mega yacht, servants, private jet, mansions, a private chef and so forth would stoop to being treated the same as everybody else in a public funded hospital? For example, does everybody in a hospital get a private room? Do you actually think a billionaire would put up with sharing a room with several others?
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
Well that is the way it is here mostly. But yes we can always head to the States where doctors can except cash. We fight hard to keep it a level field for the most part, good or bad.
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You are going through a horrendous waiting period for a necessary surgery. You have my sympathy, truly. I don't believe a billionaire would have to do that. He's going to pay for it himself, of course but the cost would be nothing to him.

edit: This from wikipedia on two-tier healthcare in Canada:

Canada[edit]
Main article: Healthcare in Canada
In Canada, there are private and public healthcare providers with complete patient freedom of choice between which doctors and facilities to use.

The public financing system, unofficially known as Medicare, consists of several different systems managed by each province or territory. The federal government distributes funds to the provinces for healthcare providing the provinces design their systems to meet certain criteria which they all do. Most people receiving care in Canada do not pay for their care. The medical provider gets paid a fixed fee for the care provided. The law bans the medical provider from charging patients to supplement their income from Medicare. Medical care providers can set their own fees that are higher than the Medicare reimbursement fee, but the patient must pay all the cost of care, not just the excess.

About 70% of Canada's healthcare funding is via the public system. Another 30% comes from private funding, divided approximately equally between out-of-pocket funding and private insurance, which may be complementary (meeting costs not covered by the public system such as the cost of prescription medicines, dental treatments and copayments) or supplementary (adding more choice of provider or providing faster access to care)[1] There are, however, financial disincentives that make private medicine for services that are covered by Medicare less economic.

Six of Canada's ten provinces used to ban private insurance for publicly insured services to inhibit queue jumping and so preserve fairness in the health care system. In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that in Quebec, such bans are unconstitutional if the waiting period for care is excessively long. However, this ruling only applies within the Province of Quebec. A second court challenge is currently underway to determine whether the prohibition of private parallel health care violates the patients' right to life, liberty, and security under Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Some private hospitals operating while the national healthcare plan was instituted (for example, the Shouldice Hernia Centre in Thornhill, Ontario) continue to operate, but they may not bill additional charges for medical procedures. (The Shouldice Hospital, however, has mandatory additional room charges not covered by public health insurance. That effectively places it in the "upper tier" of a two-tier system. Welfare recipients, for example, cannot be referred there.)

Clinics are usually private operations but may not bill additional charges. Private healthcare may also be supplied, both in uncovered fields and to foreigners.
 
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Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Nope, you guys are off the deep end.

The wealthy don't live as you and I do. I'm not saying this is right and proper, I'm just recognizing that this is so and it doesn't really matter if they do. What I advocate for in the US is at least the same good care you Canadians get. Do you actually think a billionaire would not have anything less than a private room, a pick of the best doctors private nurse and so forth? He would pay for it himself, of course. Are you really saying that in Canada, a guy with a mega yacht, servants, private jet, mansions, a private chef and so forth would stoop to being treated the same as everybody else in a public funded hospital? For example, does everybody in a hospital get a private room? Do you actually think a billionaire would put up sharing a room with several others?
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If there is a room available yes lol. My insurance pays for private rooms but there were two in the unit I was in and one was taken by a person with an immune issue and the other got there first with 2 out of 4 guys waiting in my room alone. That is just one of the issues we are dealing with re lack of resources and yes the conservatives are cutting more funds with the pretext of making it more efficient ...... :(. So yes when in the public system (hospital) they are pretty much treated the same, same doctors as the “poor folk”. I will say I was extremely happy with the care I got......the after care does seem a bit taxed though. As an aside, Doctors are not “private” here, probably why lots leave to head South ;).
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You are going through a horrendous waiting period for a necessary surgery. You have my sympathy, truly. I don't believe a billionaire would have to do that. He's going to pay for it himself, of course but the cost would be nothing to him.

edit: This from wikipedia on two-tier healthcare in Canada:

Canada[edit]
Main article: Healthcare in Canada
In Canada, there are private and public healthcare providers with complete patient freedom of choice between which doctors and facilities to use.

The public financing system, unofficially known as Medicare, consists of several different systems managed by each province or territory. The federal government distributes funds to the provinces for healthcare providing the provinces design their systems to meet certain criteria which they all do. Most people receiving care in Canada do not pay for their care. The medical provider gets paid a fixed fee for the care provided. The law bans the medical provider from charging patients to supplement their income from Medicare. Medical care providers can set their own fees that are higher than the Medicare reimbursement fee, but the patient must pay all the cost of care, not just the excess.

About 70% of Canada's healthcare funding is via the public system. Another 30% comes from private funding, divided approximately equally between out-of-pocket funding and private insurance, which may be complementary (meeting costs not covered by the public system such as the cost of prescription medicines, dental treatments and copayments) or supplementary (adding more choice of provider or providing faster access to care)[1] There are, however, financial disincentives that make private medicine for services that are covered by Medicare less economic.

Six of Canada's ten provinces used to ban private insurance for publicly insured services to inhibit queue jumping and so preserve fairness in the health care system. In 2005, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled that in Quebec, such bans are unconstitutional if the waiting period for care is excessively long. However, this ruling only applies within the Province of Quebec. A second court challenge is currently underway to determine whether the prohibition of private parallel health care violates the patients' right to life, liberty, and security under Section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Some private hospitals operating while the national healthcare plan was instituted (for example, the Shouldice Hernia Centre in Thornhill, Ontario) continue to operate, but they may not bill additional charges for medical procedures. (The Shouldice Hospital, however, has mandatory additional room charges not covered by public health insurance. That effectively places it in the "upper tier" of a two-tier system. Welfare recipients, for example, cannot be referred there.)

Clinics are usually private operations but may not bill additional charges. Private healthcare may also be supplied, both in uncovered fields and to foreigners.
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Your right and I misspoke, I should have referred to my province, as it is a Provincial thing here. Quebec is different lol. Yes there are private clinics for specialized things, and there is the option to leave the country. And yes I’m not fooled that the ultra rich don’t get “special” treatment but for the most part everyone gets the same treatment. My old boss is wearing a strap for the last 3 months to hold his hernia in because there is no room in the for profit ones.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Totally agree with you that health care "insurance" companies don't add value to the healthcare industry and therefore are simply raking in profits for no good reason. Healthcare services should be nationalized and funded by the government. Of course, Bernie's bill doesn't do this but that's a different matter.

I'd appreciate if you could cite a source that confirms you claims about immigration. I don't know why you make such a big deal about it but at least you could give us a the source for that statistic.
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Sure thing. Source is Pew Research Center. You can download all their various statistics here: https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2019/06/03/facts-on-u-s-immigrants-current-data/
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Budley Doright said:
Why should you even care about an immigrants colour? Does it worry/bother you that only 4% are white? I would like to hear why you think the numbers are so skewed towards a person of colour?
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No it doesn't worry me. You are taking my statement out of context. My original point was that if you are a white male you do have a privilege in this country which others do not. Somehow a few in this thread have attempted to skew my words to try to paint me as a bigot. The trolls here are tenacious.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Nope, you guys are off the deep end.

The wealthy don't live as you and I do. I'm not saying this is right and proper, I'm just recognizing that this is so and it doesn't really matter if they do. What I advocate for in the US is at least the same good care you Canadians get. Do you actually think a billionaire would not have anything less than a private room, a pick of the best doctors private nurse and so forth? He would pay for it himself, of course. Are you really saying that in Canada, a guy with a mega yacht, servants, private jet, mansions, a private chef and so forth would stoop to being treated the same as everybody else in a public funded hospital? For example, does everybody in a hospital get a private room? Do you actually think a billionaire would put up with sharing a room with several others?
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I remember reading Pierre Trudeau the former PM was waiting modestly along with everybody else in the waiting room for his medical care, he was rich too. But then again he was a man of values, principals and courage. Rich Canadians go to the states in some cases for heath care, but not as many as you might think. We have a two tier health care system for those who can and want to pay, people can go to the states if they want to and can afford it. Many Americans go to poor counties for affordable health care, I understand the Philippines is one of those places. You can have private insurance to pay for a private hospital room too here in Canada, I have green cross as part of my retirement health care insurance. The billionaires can always find, make or even take a country to provide them with the best healthcare, but even they have to die sometime.

Canada's system is better and 90% of Canadians agree, it costs 2/3's per capita less than the American system and covers everybody with quality health care. We are moving towards a national pharma-care system now. It's great when ya think like a community and not as a bunch of isolated individuals ready to be picked off one by one. Who is off the deep end Foggy? ;)
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I remember reading Pierre Trudeau the former PM was waiting modestly along with everybody else in the waiting room for his medical care, he was rich too. But then again he was a man of values, principals and courage. Rich Canadians go to the states in some cases for heath care, but not as many as you might think. We have a two tier health care system for those who can and want to pay, people can go to the states if they want to and can afford it. Many Americans go to poor counties for affordable health care, I understand the Philippines is one of those places. You can have private insurance to pay for a private hospital room too here in Canada, I have green cross as part of my retirement health care insurance. The billionaires can always find, make or even take a country to provide them with the best healthcare, but even they have to die sometime.

Canada's system is better and 90% of Canadians agree, it costs 2/3's per capita less than the American system and covers everybody with quality health care. We are moving towards a national pharma-care system now. It's great when ya think like a community and not as a bunch of isolated individuals ready to be picked off one by one. Who is off the deep end Foggy? ;)
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You guys keep reverting to defending socialized medicine, which is something I've never spoken against.

Sounds as if we agree that if a billionaire wants to wait for an elective surgery, share a room with others while in hospital and not otherwise receive special care that he would pay for out of pocket, he can have the same care as everybody else. How likely do you think that will happen? Maybe you aren't off the deep end.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
It says 17.8% of all immigrants are white, non-Hispanic, not 4%.

Even if it were 4%, why does race of immigrants matter to you?
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The people in Norway think Canada is a shit hole, imagine what they think about America! Not too many snow whites from Europe want to come to America any more. Hispanics, Africans and Muslims are available in large numbers though, and there are already many culturally assimilated, educated, English speaking dreamers, ready for citizenship in America. I figure Trump might mass deport the dreamers as a distraction as soon as Stephen Miller can convince him, though the courts would block it.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You guys keep reverting to defending socialized medicine, which is something I've never spoken against.

Sounds as if we agree that if a billionaire wants to wait for an elective surgery, share a room with others while in hospital and not otherwise receive special care that he would pay for out of pocket, he can have the same care as everybody else. How likely do you think that will happen? Maybe you aren't off the deep end.
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We agree, a billionaire can turn his mansion into a hospital and some do, if not here, in the States where they would own another home anyway. These people run their own fucking space programs these days, so healthcare is not a big reach for them! Whether someone who is rich stays here for their healthcare can depend on several factors besides character, if they have some forms of cancer if does not matter where they die, other things people might want to get addressed inside or outside the country privately. I don't mind because it's less of burden on public the health care system and their business. The important thing is that a very large super majority of Canadians like the system, and it's death for any politician to fuck with it. Obamacare became popular at light speed in the States and became a political third rail almost overnight! The GOP hate the nickname they gave the ACA and Obama loved it, he had the last laugh on that joke. :D
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
No it doesn't worry me. You are taking my statement out of context. My original point was that if you are a white male you do have a privilege in this country which others do not. Somehow a few in this thread have attempted to skew my words to try to paint me as a bigot. The trolls here are tenacious.
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No not out of context, just curious is all. And yes your right you do experience privilege as a white person. Probably why people of colour tend to leave their country of origin, it’s no different anywhere around the globe.
 
Budley Doright

Budley Doright

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
You guys keep reverting to defending socialized medicine, which is something I've never spoken against.

Sounds as if we agree that if a billionaire wants to wait for an elective surgery, share a room with others while in hospital and not otherwise receive special care that he would pay for out of pocket, he can have the same care as everybody else. How likely do you think that will happen? Maybe you aren't off the deep end.
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I don’t think your referring to me, I think if you can afford it (insurance and wealth) the States has excellent healthcare and most of the people I know that live there have one or the other. The people that get left behind from the perceptions I get are the ones who have neither. It is these folks that need the government to step up and provide quality free or subsidized healthcare. Friends recently moved to Florida for employment and when one had to get treatment they said it was amazing re all tests done promptly and treatments in a timely manner. They had to pay $45 co-pay through the work plan. I do know that if you don’t have insurance or wealth your fucked and I’ve watched a family (lost his job and coverage) that was basically left destitute due to health issues trying to save the mother. I get what Fog is saying that people do not want to give up what they have and are scared that care will falter under a national health plan.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
No it doesn't worry me. You are taking my statement out of context. My original point was that if you are a white male you do have a privilege in this country which others do not. Somehow a few in this thread have attempted to skew my words to try to paint me as a bigot. The trolls here are tenacious.
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PJ, nobody is taking your comments out of context. You specifically said (this is a direct quote in its entirety):

"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind"

PJ Diaz said:
1. No I don't have specialized knowledge of the insurance industry, but I am able to use the internet to find the info I need. Here's an article to support my assertion for your reference: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/05/top-health-insurers-profit-surge-29-percent-to-6-billion-dollars.html

2. Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind.
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You quoted an immigration statistic that clearly did not come from Pew Research. These inconsistencies of yours are why people doubt that you are sincere. Actually it looks to many as if you are lying. So, unless you want to come off looking like the racist dog that some say you are, answer the question. Even if only 4% of people who immigrate are white (its not true but if it were), why do you say it matters?

You tell us you are a man who is all about facts. I can respect that. So, please explain yourself in a facts-based manner.
 
PJ Diaz

PJ Diaz

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
PJ, nobody is taking your comments out of context. You specifically said (this is a direct quote in its entirety):

"Race does matter when it comes to immigrants. Only 4% of immigrants are white. To turn a blind eye to that fact only serves to make you color blind"



You quoted an immigration statistic that clearly did not come from Pew Research. These inconsistencies of yours are why people doubt that you are sincere. Actually it looks to many as if you are lying. So, unless you want to come off looking like the racist dog that some say you are, answer the question. Even if only 4% of people who immigrate are white (its not true but if it were), why do you say it matters?

You tell us you are a man who is all about facts. I can respect that. So, please explain yourself in a facts-based manner.
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Oops, it does look like I made a mistake. I was quickly looking at a chart, which showed the % of population by race, and those which are foreign born vs US born, but didn't look at close at the math as I should have. Yes, I acknowledge that I made an error, but definitely was not trying to be deceitful.

Here is the figure I was initially referencing:

Screenshot (7).png

Why does it matter? Because an earlier poster was trying to claim that by being white did not affect his ability to secure work in his field, by saying "Driving transport is a career path that lots of immigrants have followed here." I issued a rebuttal by with figures showing that most in his industry were white. Then I got called a racist for assuming that most immigrants are non-white, so I found figures to support my claim. Yes, I do see now that the 4% figure was wrong in error, but even the 17.8% figure you posted does support my initial assertion. So, thanks for both correcting my details, but also validating my overall assertion that most immigrants are non-white, and that yes it does affect one's ability to secure employment.

So are we done now, with you nitpicking my posts apart and trying to claim that I am something I am not? Seems you don't want to focus on real issues so much as you want to tear others apart. That's what the Russians are trying to do to our society, tear us apart, and pit us against each other.
 
UncleBuck

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
PJ Diaz said:
Oops, it does look like I made a mistake. I was quickly looking at a chart, which showed the % of population by race, and those which are foreign born vs US born, but didn't look at close at the math as I should have. Yes, I acknowledge that I made an error, but definitely was not trying to be deceitful.

Here is the figure I was initially referencing:

View attachment 4413589

Why does it matter? Because an earlier poster was trying to claim that by being white did not affect his ability to secure work in his field, by saying "Driving transport is a career path that lots of immigrants have followed here." I issued a rebuttal by with figures showing that most in his industry were white. Then I got called a racist for assuming that most immigrants are non-white, so I found figures to support my claim. Yes, I do see now that the 4% figure was wrong in error, but even the 17.8% figure you posted does support my initial assertion. So, thanks for both correcting my details, but also validating my overall assertion that most immigrants are non-white, and that yes it does affect one's ability to secure employment.

So are we done now, with you nitpicking my posts apart and trying to claim that I am something I am not? Seems you don't want to focus on real issues so much as you want to tear others apart. That's what the Russians are trying to do to our society, tear us apart, and pit us against each other.
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You lied, you got caught lying, and you’re trying to claim that getting caught lying validated you

You’re pathetic, bj
 
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