More on Moore's "Sicko."

Dankdude · Jul 15, 2007

ViRedd said:
So, health care is a "right," eh? How about housing, is that a right too? How about food, want to make that a right, med? If gaining a "right" means that you have to violate the rights of another to get that right, then its not a right at all. It's nothing but just simple theft.

In your minds, guyz ... where do rights originate from? Should rights come from the government? Where do our rights come from anyway? Would one of you geniuses answer that question please.

Also, I have NEVER been ashamed to be an American. Not even for one second of my life. If you find this counry to be so reprehensible, I'd suggest living elsewhere and leave us who truely love liberty alone.

Vi

It just goes to show you have no compassion or any conscience. It is a basic Human Right Vi.
I have heard the Teach a man to fish thing but in the mean time they need something in their belly right then to keep them from starving.
It seems to me that since we are the only country in the civilized world who doesn't have Universal Health Care, it's time that we catch up with the rest of the world.
Vi, you don't have the Moral High Ground on this one. You can't take all the money you make to the grave, maybe you should use it to better society.
Do we need to Curb Government spending? Sure we do, but for what we spend in one month on a war we don't need to be in, we could have ran a Universal Health Care system for one year.
The status quo just isn't working anymore Vi.
What this country is doing to the poor and middle class is reprehensible.
Vi if you were to have a massive heart attack, it would wipe out all your savings as well as your insurance company would try and figure out a way not to pay for your treatment(it happens all the time, stock holders don't like their bottom line being messed with). This is what happened to my mother, Believe me, I used to think just like you. But circumstances will change your perspective on things.
For profit medicine is a dangerous concept, this is because stock holders put profit before human life.
As I stated before, you do not have the Moral High Ground on this Vi.

ViRedd · Jul 16, 2007

Ahhh, but I DO have the moral gound on this one, Dankster. If you knew the pain I've suffered in my life time, you'd be amazed. I've suffered enough pain over the years for ten life times. I've had many surgeries, some of which were not covered by insurance due to "pre-existing conditions." I've never asked anyone for a dime to pay my expenses. If I couldn't pay upfront, I always worked out terms with the doctors and/or hospitals.

Theft is not compassion, Dank & Med. Helping your fellow citizen in time of need on a voluntary basis IS compassion. Liberty is not having bureaucrats dictating to us how "compassionate" we must be at the point of a gun, guyz. Why should I, or anyone else be forced to pay for the insurance of another when that person just elects not to buy insurance in lieu of buying a flat-screen TV?

For those in dire straits, we have "free" emergency rooms and county hospitals. Private hospitals will accept terms ... and doctors will too.

Vi

medicineman · Jul 16, 2007

ViRedd said:
Ahhh, but I DO have the moral gound on this one, Dankster. If you knew the pain I've suffered in my life time, you'd be amazed. I've suffered enough pain over the years for ten life times. I've had many surgeries, some of which were not covered by insurance due to "pre-existing conditions." I've never asked anyone for a dime to pay my expenses. If I couldn't pay upfront, I always worked out terms with the doctors and/or hospitals.

Theft is not compassion, Dank & Med. Helping your fellow citizen in time of need on a voluntary basis IS compassion. Liberty is not having bureaucrats dictating to us how "compassionate" we must be at the point of a gun, guyz. Why should I, or anyone else be forced to pay for the insurance of another when that person just elects not to buy insurance in lieu of buying a flat-screen TV?

For those in dire straits, we have "free" emergency rooms and county hospitals. Private hospitals will accept terms ... and doctors will too.

Vi

At least you've got some Karma for your selfishness (Pain) maybe it was trying to tell you something, like have a little compassion for your fellow man. Just because you were the type of person that could survive all this "pain" and money drains does not mean others are as fortunate as you. So you believe that if you have not the money or means to combat your illness, you should suffer ond die. I don't believe many Dr.s or Hospitals work on the credit principle, especially if you have no credit. If you are going into cardiac arrest, they may treat you but that is usually too late. Treatable disease is requiring of treatment or else dire straights result. It is only when you reach the near death state that a hospital will admit you without insurance or money, meanwhile, millions of citizens suffer needlesly so you selfish bastards can have all your comforts. Grow the fuck up. Healthy Adults have the capacity for compassion, obviously, you have never grown up, or are, as I suspect, one sick puppy.

hempie · Jul 16, 2007

if you go to the ER for whatever reason and you dont pay they cant put it against your credit.. its against the law.. why in the hell do dems want everything handed to them? if you work then you should have it through your company. if your self employed then you should be able to afford it.. i pay 500 a month for it.. micheal moores movie has already been debunked.. most of the people he interviewed have said he took them out of context or didnt have permission to video tape them.. his so called facts are anything but facts and more like delusions of grandeur.. i personally cant wait until he overdoses on twinkies..

medicineman · Jul 16, 2007

hempie said:
if you go to the ER for whatever reason and you dont pay they cant put it against your credit.. its against the law.. why in the hell do dems want everything handed to them? if you work then you should have it through your company. if your self employed then you should be able to afford it.. i pay 500 a month for it.. micheal moores movie has already been debunked.. most of the people he interviewed have said he took them out of context or didnt have permission to video tape them.. his so called facts are anything but facts and more like delusions of grandeur.. i personally cant wait until he overdoses on twinkies..

Idiot..........

hempie · Jul 16, 2007

medicineman said:
Idiot..........

spoken like a true fool.. when faced with the truth your only response is name calling..

7xstall · Jul 16, 2007

you leftists shun reality far too efficiently, it sounds like you actually believe that the government is the answer to this problem; just too scared to face the truth.

it's hard to believe that there are so many thieves willing to steal from fellow citizens, with the exception of those who hate America, especially among the members of what should be a self-sustaining, independently thinking community.

take a trip down Fact Lane and see where medicine got messed up, it's that big, sprawling government machine you guys cozy up to in your socialist dreams.

the government accepted ridiculous lawsuits and awarded ridiculous judgments.

the government allowed the parasitic lawyers to lobby them into forcing docs to buy huge liability insurance policies that the lawyers could later cash in on; creating a big cycle of siphoning off the money of the insured.

the left/dems are so shot out that they even have a millionaire trial lawyer running for president!! lol, yeah, i'm sure they can fix it up real nice!

be honest. the history is there, the facts are there, go look at it instead of stuffing your lazy faces with the propaganda of an obese hollywood attention whore.

.

medicineman · Jul 16, 2007

hempie said:
spoken like a true fool.. when faced with the truth your only response is name calling..

Idiot..............

medicineman · Jul 16, 2007

7xstall said:
you leftists shun reality far too efficiently, it sounds like you actually believe that the government is the answer to this problem; just too scared to face the truth.

it's hard to believe that there are so many thieves willing to steal from fellow citizens, with the exception of those who hate America, especially among the members of what should be a self-sustaining, independently thinking community.

take a trip down Fact Lane and see where medicine got messed up, it's that big, sprawling government machine you guys cozy up to in your socialist dreams.

the government accepted ridiculous lawsuits and awarded ridiculous judgments.

the government allowed the parasitic lawyers to lobby them into forcing docs to buy huge liability insurance policies that the lawyers could later cash in on; creating a big cycle of siphoning off the money of the insured.

the left/dems are so shot out that they even have a millionaire trial lawyer running for president!! lol, yeah, i'm sure they can fix it up real nice!

be honest. the history is there, the facts are there, go look at it instead of stuffing your lazy faces with the propaganda of an obese hollywood attention whore.

And You're blaming all this on Government, I think you need this handbook.
The same one I referred to Hempie.

.

Dankdude · Jul 16, 2007

ViRedd said:
Ahhh, but I DO have the moral gound on this one, Dankster. If you knew the pain I've suffered in my life time, you'd be amazed. I've suffered enough pain over the years for ten life times. I've had many surgeries, some of which were not covered by insurance due to "pre-existing conditions." I've never asked anyone for a dime to pay my expenses. If I couldn't pay upfront, I always worked out terms with the doctors and/or hospitals.

Theft is not compassion, Dank & Med. Helping your fellow citizen in time of need on a voluntary basis IS compassion. Liberty is not having bureaucrats dictating to us how "compassionate" we must be at the point of a gun, guyz. Why should I, or anyone else be forced to pay for the insurance of another when that person just elects not to buy insurance in lieu of buying a flat-screen TV?

For those in dire straits, we have "free" emergency rooms and county hospitals. Private hospitals will accept terms ... and doctors will too.

Vi

Get your insurance canceled and then tell me all of that.
The Only time they point a gun at you is if you cheat on your taxes.... If you have had a gun point at you, then you must have broke the law.
And no you don't have the Moral High Ground on this.
I look at it this way, every other country in the Civilized western world has Universal Health Care, the United States is the only hold out, they can't all be wrong and the US right.
And no Private Hospitals nor doctors will take terms any more... They want to be paid when services are rendered.... It seems to me that you haven't been to a private hospital lately
Also The FREE emergency rooms as you call it, will render service as required by federal law, but they will also ruin your credit and turn you over to a collection agency if those services are not paid for (at extremely inflated prices, like $36.00 for an ace bandage)... Do you actually thing your talking to someone who has not been through this?
You may be able to convince some youngster of this, but you can't bullshit me.

closet.cult · Jul 17, 2007

ViRedd said:
Also, I have NEVER been ashamed to be an American. Not even for one second of my life. If you find this counry to be so reprehensible, I'd suggest living elsewhere and leave us who truely love liberty alone.Vi

this is the biggest bullshit i've heard in this thread. does saying it make you feel more american?

you think liberty is simply speaking you mind, out loud? liberty is not fearing the government for living any damn way you choose.

but many areas of government that need improvement have nothing to do with liberty. they are simply badly managed and in many cases corrupt. the system in place has been in place for too long. the loopholes are being fully exploited.

it has been said, " a little revolution is healthy, from time to time." that is where we are now. if a change is not made soon, the glory of america will be gone. oh, we will still hold the world power position thru might of arms and wealth. but that is a far cry from what i mean by 'the glory' of america.

am i ashamed 'to be' an american? hell no. but i am ashamed of america very much these days. our ruling class and our lazy citizens. we have let our responsibilities slack.

1. we have change the unjust laws using the systems in place.
2. we have to know the issues and vote for them.
3. we have to demand a fair process for other parties in presidential
elections. if you didn't know, there are good men with the values you share in the running, but the shysters of the two party system have found ways to ensure you never hear their voice or message.

i don't mean to turn this into a rant. but try and tell me i'm a bad american for pointing out it's flaws, which i AM ashamed of. i will tell you to pull that flagpole out of your ass and go to hell. we have work to do to fix this ONCE truly great nation.

7xstall · Jul 17, 2007

medicineman said:
[/color]

increased expenses to get FDA approval on drugs from overpaid, paper wielding bureaucrats or second rate scientists with political agendas - government.

irresponsible and outlandish redistribution of wealth through courts lacking basic tort reform - government.

complex legislation requiring irrational record storage/transmittal policies causing higher operating costs for insurance companies - government.

complex legislation requiring nonsensical and illogical privacy policies which are expensive to abide by in pharmacies, hospitals, doctor's offices - government.

lack of basic communication with state boards to keep license revocation records available to public (keeping bad doctors from practicing medicine) despite taking control and creating large, expensive committees to oversee this - government.

restriction of competition, an insurance company in one state cannot sell it's coverage in another state so we have 50 different markets in one country - government.

perpetual threats of imprisonment to doctors who prescribe certain medicines - government.

identify ANY problem in the current health care industry and i will gladly show you how it was initiated by government if you want the truth.

Med, the government has single-handedly caused every health insurance problem we have in our nation. no naturally functioning/profitable industry self-destructs on it's own.

quit eating up all the big government propaganda and take a hard look at the history of this so-called "crisis"... we need a competitive health insurance market with private sector leadership - that's what has worked all along. if we throw the government out of the equation it will work like it used to.

.

ViRedd · Jul 17, 2007

closet.cult ...

I can't disagree with anything you've said in the above post. BUT ... the one's I'm refering to are those who actually HATE America ... hate it for it's founding principles. To those people, I'd say get the hell out now before they ruin it for the freedom loving people who want to remain. I agree, there is nothing wrong with redressing your/our government at all. That's one of the founding principles I'm talking about. For those who want to turn the country into a socialist state with Big Brother running the show, leave now! Move to France, Sweden, N. Korea Cuba or Argentina and enjoy your "free" health care.

Vi

closet.cult · Jul 17, 2007

ViRedd said:
closet.cult ...

I can't disagree with anything you've said in the above post. BUT ... the one's I'm refering to are those who actually HATE America ... hate it for it's founding principles. To those people, I'd say get the hell out now before they ruin it for the freedom loving people who want to remain. I agree, there is nothing wrong with redressing your/our government at all. That's one of the founding principles I'm talking about. For those who want to turn the country into a socialist state with Big Brother running the show, leave now! Move to France, Sweden, N. Korea Cuba or Argentina and enjoy your "free" health care.

Vi

yeah. i can't argue with that. i hate the stigmas of the grand old party, but smaller local governments is the truest intent of the framers of the constitution. trying to tie everyone into a GREAT big brother would shit all over the country.

but there must certainly be a system possible that could allow for low cost health insurance to all. i know everyone has healthcare, if they need it. but the financial responsibilities are astounding, unless your rich or poor. how is that fair? the problem is not actually big brother footing the bill, but rather that the medical community has somehow been granted highway robbery for their services and medicines.

i stepped on a nail a few months back. i spent 4 hours in the waiting room, 10 minutes talking to a nurse, got a tetanus shot, and a sample vicondin.
$125 out of pocket.
$1,500 charged to my insurance company.

preventative tetanus immunity shots can be had for a few dollars, if it's not emergency room applications. the vicodin pill must have cost what, $500? so 10 minutes of the nurses time cost what, $1,000? whatever. it's a money making scheme because the people don't pay the full cost out of pocket so they don't get hit with the realities of what kind of scam is going on here.

a revolution in this industy is needed, as well. and one day, when the rich an unscrupulous charlotons have found all the loopholes to exploit that system, a new revolution will be required.

medicineman · Jul 17, 2007

closet.cult said:
yeah. i can't argue with that. i hate the stigmas of the grand old party, but smaller local governments is the truest intent of the framers of the constitution. trying to tie everyone into a GREAT big brother would shit all over the country.

but there must certainly be a system possible that could allow for low cost health insurance to all. i know everyone has healthcare, if they need it. but the financial responsibilities are astounding, unless your rich or poor. how is that fair? the problem is not actually big brother footing the bill, but rather that the medical community has somehow been granted highway robbery for their services and medicines.

i stepped on a nail a few months back. i spent 4 hours in the waiting room, 10 minutes talking to a nurse, got a tetanus shot, and a sample vicondin.
$125 out of pocket.
$1,500 charged to my insurance company.

preventative tetanus immunity shots can be had for a few dollars, if it's not emergency room applications. the vicodin pill must have cost what, $500? so 10 minutes of the nurses time cost what, $1,000? whatever. it's a money making scheme because the people don't pay the full cost out of pocket so they don't get hit with the realities of what kind of scam is going on here.

a revolution in this industy is needed, as well. and one day, when the rich an unscrupulous charlotons have found all the loopholes to exploit that system, a new revolution will be required.

I believe that is what Mike Moore is referring to in his movie. A revolution in health care. Government would work just fine. It works very well in the VA system I am party to. The only glitch in that program is the underfunding by cutting funds by the Bush regime, The social security checks come right on time every month, and as much as we hate it, the Income tax works very well. The only thing wrong with the income tax is Bush gave most of it back to the wealthy and now we have this atrocious national debt that is consuming our country by leaps and bounds. They need to legalize the tax system, a progressive tax system to bring back the middle class, and take the FED out of the equation, start printing government money. and finance a single payer Med system by eliminating the middle men (Profiteers) HMOs and Insurance companies. Government works just fine if you keep your eye on the prize. What we don't need is more privitization and outsourcing of our labor. I am not a communist or a socialist, but I believe in people over corporations, and I believe the elites are getting away with most of our wealth. Now I know you'll say, "well they earned it" But more than likely they stole it by fucking some poor people out of their necessities, cutting social services and returning a dis-porportionate amount of the tax revenue to themselves, like they deserve it. Bullshit!!!

closet.cult · Jul 17, 2007

outsourcing of labor and industry is a major factor in this country's decline, IMO. i'm no economics major, but keep more money in our borders, in our people pockets. i guess a rich man knows he can get richer by paying pennies to people overseas. that's greed and immorality and shortsightedness all in one go.

ViRedd · Jul 17, 2007

Uhhh ... but you guys have made no mention of increasing competition in the medical industry. How come? Fierce competition is the natural leveling field for prices. Did you know that the amount of new M.D.'s graduating from college is artifically contolled to limit the numbers? Also, you must take into account how many people stiff the hospital on their bills. The cost of running a good hospital entails much more than just the nurse's salary. I think I read somewhere that a new MRI machine costs in excess of two millon dollars as an example.

Vi

Token · Jul 17, 2007

ViRedd said:
Well, quite honestly, I'm saddened by the fact that you're ashamed of your country. If your wish were granted that the country live up to what its supposed to be, here's what you would have: You'd have a very small central government with very limited powers. The federal government would have remained chained by the powers of the people as enumerated in the Constitution. Every man would be responsible for himself, asking for nothing other than honesty from his fellow citizen. Each citizen would have the knowledge that our rights come from a higher power and not from the government. Each man would realize that expecting politicians to invent "rights" that come at the expense of another citizen is nothing more than legalized theft. There's more ... but I have to take my daughter out for her birthday dinner ... take care.

Vi

Vi I agree with you on this 90% besides the fact that your still a proud believe in manifest destiny(because that's what America is all about ever since Jefferson), I believe in small government, But I don't believe this government should control things you do are the rest of the world for that matter. I'm to tried to explain more
----------

And as for the finding fathers they stood for One Thing NOT PAYING TAXES, Great Britian was well into the works of parellment which made England pretty much just like here.

ViRedd · Jul 17, 2007

The best solution would be to get the federal government out of our lives as much as possible. They DO have a role to play though ... like the military. Government is great at killing people and breaking things. Hey, they've just about broken our entire health care system with all of their onerous laws and regulations. And they've in effect killed thousands of young people with their federal drug sentencing guidelines. I mean .... an 18 year-old guy caught selling a gram of coke within a 1000 feet of a school DESERVES 30 years behind bars, right? NOT!

Vi

Token · Jul 17, 2007

If Government is just about Military that's who rules it, and what happen to USSR. I believe that the only reason for military now days is defense not attack and if America was to actually sign one document it wrote for forging affairs, I think that this could happen with the government we have if it wasn't so corrupt one person back stabing another.

More on Moore's "Sicko."

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