Organic better flavor?

hyroot

Well-Known Member
That appears to be only one of Peter's product (5-6-12 SNC PS Mix)...not sure what unregistered is all about.
Nutrient companies have to register their product and disclose all ingredients with the department of agriculture of each state to be able to legally sell in each state. Oregon depatrment of agriculture is the only one that will list them publically on their website. For california you have to contact them.
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
So should I assume that the other dozen or so nutrients under the Peter's/Jack's brand are not mislabeled and are registered?
 

Nullis

Moderator
General Organics is not organic either, they lie like alot of the companies do. Their nutes are full of heavy metals and chems


http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/pest/Pages/stopsales.aspx


http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/hitlist.lasso


http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_met...oduct_id=16787


bio thrive bloom has Indole3 Butyric Acid, Naphthaleneacetic Acid, Phosphorous Acid, Arsenic, Cadmium, Mercury, Lead, Nickel. All very bad chems and some poisons....
You are misinterpreting those web pages. I have tried to tell you this in the past, because I remember you have posted similar things in the past.

First of all, all fertilizers contain some trace amount of heavy metals like those you mention (greensand, rock phosphate, kelp meal, etc. too). That is in parts per million, and values of < (less than) 10, <5, <0.2, 5, <5 aren't really significant... compare them to others. Random example Maxicrop Soluble Seaweed power - http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=16782 with 36 ppm Arsenic, this Espoma rock phosphate - http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=21812 with 42 ppm Cadmium and 70 ppm Nickel!

Also you are reading the Non Plant Food Ingredients table incorrectly. The fields that you reference, Indole3 Butyric Acid, Phosphorous Acid, Naphthaleneacetic Acid, etc. are EMPTY... there is no value there because those substances are not in the product (you will notice that table displayed on many of the liquid products). What is in the product for NPF-ingredients, according to the table is 0.2% Humic acid, 2% Kelp and for Other Ingredients 1.5% Cane Sugar and 0.5% Glacial Rock Powder.

As for guano (which can come from bats or seabirds) AFAIK the primary risk comes from inhalation of guano dust, as it could potentially contain microbes like Histoplasma capsulatum (a fungi) which can infect the lungs. You should really wear a dust mask when working with guano, and basically anything that can result in fine airborne particles which includes alfalfa meal, oyster shell flour and lime, other dry granulated plant foods (esp. those which could have microbes) and even soil/potting mix. That said I never do and never have had any problems (I am relatively healthy, though) but I should still try to wear a dust mask when mixing soil.

Last thing I want to say is that hydroponics fertilizers most likely contain some synthetic chelating agent to increase trace\micro-nutrient availability. EDTA is the most common, DTPA is another. These substances have a particular affinity for heavy metals and shuttle them into plant roots as well. AFAIK the exact fate of substances like EDTA in the plant is unknown.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
They are listed because they are there , they didn't say how much so they left it blank. Look at all the nutrients. They don't have the same chemicals and metals listed. I think You are misinterpreting it. Why would it be listed if its not there. Example fox farm. They list on the label and on the site that they have edta but it doesn't say how much

they don't make a random list and check off the ones they have and don't have. The companies disclose as little info as they are legally allowed. They are another shady company. They are part of general hydro. They even sell fake compost .
 

Nullis

Moderator
They are listed because they are there , they didn't say how much so they left it blank. Look at all the nutrients. They don't have the same chemicals and metals listed. I think You are misinterpreting it. Why would it be listed if its not there. Example fox farm. They list on the label and on the site that they have edta but it doesn't say how much

they don't make a random list and check off the ones they have and don't have. The companies disclose as little info as they are legally allowed. They are another shady company. They are part of general hydro. They even sell fake compost .
Yes, they do. I assure you that you are not interpreting the table correctly. Just click on a bunch of random entries and this should be readily apparent.
First, they all list heavy metals in ppm, for example.
Heavy Metals (in Parts Per Million)
Arsenic: < 6.0
Cadmium: < 0.50 Mercury: < 0.05 Lead: < 5.0 Nickel: < 1.0
And then the next table is for the Guaranteed Analysis, this one was 0-3-0.
Guaranteed Analysis
Total Nitrogen: Avail. Phosphate: 3% Sol. Potash:
Calcium: Magnesium: Sulfur:
Boron: Chlorine: Cobalt:
Copper: Iron: 1% Manganese:
Molybdenum: Sodium: Zinc:
Finally the non plant food ingredients:
Non Plant Food Ingredients
Humic Acid Indole3 Butyric Acid Naphthaleneacetic Acid
Phosphorous Acid
1.5%
Kelp Vitamin B1 Polyacrylamide
Potting Mix

That table is there for every entry that has at least one of those plant food ingredients (most commonly for Humic and Kelp). These are just default/common ingredients that would be considered as such. Indole3 Butyric Acid is rooting hormone, and would be present in such products. NAA is a growth hormone commonly used in tissue culture. Polyacrylamide is a cross-linked polymer sold as a soil conditioner (SoilMoist). Obviously the liquid products are not "Potting Mix".

This is just the way that webpages that show database results often work. The tables are predefined, static, and the value is displayed if present. In the case of the Non Plant Food Ingredient table, that entire table is displayed when there exists at least one corresponding value.

Here is the listing for Tiger Bloom: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=3092
EDTA is not mentioned anywhere, because this does not really give you the actual product ingredients: it gives you the max. heavy metal contents and guaranteed analysis. Notice there is no "Non Plant Food Ingredients" table shown there, because there are no non plant food ingredients in the product.

As far as my thoughts on the taste between MG and HF....the MG DID taste better, smoother, and didn't make either of us hork-up a lung...unlike the mother. I will admit much probably had more to do with the curing than anything.

I don't know why someone is so fired up about smoking something grown in bat-shit and poo-poo's nutrients like Jacks. Nitrogen is nitrogen, Phosphates are phosphates, and minerals are minerals. The plants don't know the difference.

More power to those of you that grow organically. There's a market for your product.
Who knows what that singular experience had to do with, but yes curing to improve smoke quality would make sense.

Otherwise you are missing the point (and you aren't the only one). Other than the fact that plant nutrition is derived from much more than just bat guano (which is often virtually absent from soil), people grow "organically" for different reasons. There certainly are differences between "organic"/all natural inputs and chemical salts, but the primary difference is the actual plant available/soluble or you might even say ionic portion of it. Of course, what you need to understand about soil is that it is much more complex than you could have imagined. Soil is not inert, and a healthy soil is full of life: mostly the kind you can't really see including bacteria/archaea, fungi (yeast, mold, etc.), protozoans (amoeba, ciliates, flagellates) and nematodes. There can be tens of billions of microbes in just a tablespoon of soil. All of them have a place in the soil food web, and playing some role to keep it healthy and balanced. Most of the these microbes are beneficial to the soil, and ultimately to plants growing in the soil as well. Plants did not evolve on Earth alone. In nature most plants are involved in symbiotic or mutually beneficial relationships with plants. Plant roots actually exude various substances, including carbohydrates in order to stimulate the microbes in the rhizosphere (root zone), and attract microbes as well.

One of the most well known and also one of the most important symbiotic associations is between plant roots and fungi. Several species of fungi are known to be "mycorrhizal". Mycorrhizal fungi intimately associate with plant roots, either growing in between the root cells or penetrating the cell wall. The network of fungal mycelium goes out in search of water and plant nutrients (esp. phosphorous), which it brings back to the plant in exchange for carbohydrates. The fungi can take insoluble P and make it soluble (other nutrients too), which the plants cannot do, and the hyphae of fungi can grow in a manner in which plant roots cannot. Yet another good example is that of N-fixing bacteria and archaea. Various species of bacteria can take the Nitrogen gas from the atmosphere and turn it into ammonia (itself plant available, other bacteria will further it into nitrate). Species in the genus Rhizobium do this in association with legumes, while Azotobacter is able to perform the function by itself.

Another major function of many soil organisms is decomposition of organic/once living (dead) matter, plant material, insect/animal wastes, etc. The breakdown of organic matter not only results in plant available minerals, but also increases the humus content of the soil (not to mention if not for this the whole world would be covered in shit- life probably wouldn't be possible). Humus is thoroughly decomposed amorphous, stable, matter which has reached a point where it will not readily decay further. Humus increases the soils ability to hold water and nutrients, and support life. Humus has a high cation exchange capacity, which means it can hold onto nutrient cations, or positively charged ions, such that they do not leach away easily.

All in all, the microbes in the soil are mineralizing/releasing plant available nutrients, retaining them within their bodies so they don't leach from the soil, or providing some kind of direct assistance to the plant. Some do this by fending off the bad organisms that would do the plant harm, or at least out competing them. Others by providing nutrients for the plant, directly or indirectly. Soil microbes can also produce other compounds such as plant growth hormones and antibiotics (this is where we got them from). Plants are able to influence the populations of specific microbial kinds of microbial communities by the exudate it releases into the soil.

Refined/chemical fertilizers are much stronger than organics, they have a more pronounced long-term effect on soil (we're talking outdoors, in the ground, nature) because they do nothing to sustain the soil itself and in fact drive away beneficial micro/organisms and reduce humus formation, depleting the mineral content of the soil, its water holding/nutrient holding capacity and arability in general. Most the fertilizer applied isn't even absorbed by the plants, and it can easily wash away. A plant can only absorb nutrients in the rhizosphere, where the root meets the soil.

Forests used to grow on this Earth, you know. Massive rain forests full of giant trees; all kinds of plants all growing, somehow, without any man ever dumping any fertilizer on the soil.
 

crispypb840

Active Member
Hey Nulis. Thanks for the post and explanations. Do you think My nutrients could be killing off good bacteria. Im using General Organics in Fox Farm OF.
 
only had one havest they were auto's no nutes thats because of what the breeders said. Before that I smoked nothing but street weed. I did'nt even know how junky that stuff was. My friend grew a few plants this year and pounded them nutes 3 in 5 gallon buckets 1 in the ground the ones in the buckets were terrable the one in the ground wasn't to bad still had that taste though.I bought some street weed a month or so ago keeping it in a jar help it a little but did'nt fix it.I'm only a week into flower by time i havest and cure i have around 3 months.I will not be buying any street weed i'm welling to wait that long.My Goji went male on me I stressed it out I think thats how I got in this situation.I'll wait for my clean weed.
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
Refresh my memory... What brings you to the "Organics" forum if you aren't growing organically? Just trying to stir something up?
The topic was "Organic better flavor?"......would you prefer to just have a bunch of organic growers patting each other on the back?
 

ThaProdiG

Well-Known Member
LOL.....Did I even say it was scientific?!?! The whole point of that grow was to see how a plant would grow with just Miracle Grow compared the the mother grown in Happy Frog. The myths about Miracle Grow being crappy soil are unfounded as far as I'm concerned....and that thread proved it.

I only brought up the taste thing because my wife is an organic-nut and she could swear that she could tell the difference....when there was no difference. I've done the same with her with "organic" peanut-butter, and "organic" apples.....she's guessed wrong each time.

As far as my thoughts on the taste between MG and HF....the MG DID taste better, smoother, and didn't make either of us hork-up a lung...unlike the mother. I will admit much probably had more to do with the curing than anything.

I don't know why someone is so fired up about smoking something grown in bat-shit and poo-poo's nutrients like Jacks. Nitrogen is nitrogen, Phosphates are phosphates, and minerals are minerals. The plants don't know the difference.

More power to those of you that grow organically. There's a market for your product.
yeah i have to agree...um.. u seem a little biased towards the MG anyway.. i hate mg...its like not for weed r something.
 

foreverflyhi

Well-Known Member
Refresh my memory... What brings you to the "Organics" forum if you aren't growing organically? Just trying to stir something up?
Hes here bcuz monsanto pays ppl to go into all organic threads and try to convince ppl that permaculture or organics cant feed todays population. They try to convince farmers that we need their products to grow. They try to convince the gerenal public that there is no diffrence between synthetics and organics.They want the world to run on synthetics and fossil fuels.

Lol i still cant believe hes trying to back up MG!
 

lilroach

Well-Known Member
Hes here bcuz monsanto pays ppl to go into all organic threads and try to convince ppl that permaculture or organics cant feed todays population. They try to convince farmers that we need their products to grow. They try to convince the gerenal public that there is no diffrence between synthetics and organics.They want the world to run on synthetics and fossil fuels.

Lol i still cant believe hes trying to back up MG!
Ok....this is where all threads degrade to dumb posts like this one. I've never put down growing organically. I commend those that grow this way. I just added my two-cents on the taste question. MMMMMMMMMM I can taste the guano.
 

Nullis

Moderator
Hey Nulis. Thanks for the post and explanations. Do you think My nutrients could be killing off good bacteria. Im using General Organics in Fox Farm OF.
IMO General Organics is just fine, it is made mostly from materials that were either plant-based or mined minerals (e.g. Glacial Rock powder, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, potassium sulfate can all be sourced from natural deposits), and it contains compounds which will feed microbes living in the soil/potting mix you are using (molasses, cane sugar). I particularly like the Bio-Marine (liquid squid) and the Bio-Weed kelp extract isn't bad either. For liquid organic plant foods I'll use both the General Organics and Earth Juice (if I happen to need a liquid nutrient). I use liquid plant foods more sparingly. Actively aerated compost teas are highly effective for keeping plants healthy, and I grow in a fairly rich potting soil so not much else is required for inputs.

Also since hyroot mentioned this... I am not sure what the "fake compost" that General Hydro sells is... I have used their Ancient Forest Alaskan humus in potting mix and for AACT inoculation, it's great in AACT because it has a high biodiversity or organisms. Here is the listing for it: http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=17244
Note how the "Non Plant Food Ingredient" table is displayed there, and under "Potting Mix" it says "Yes"... because it is considered as such. It does not contain Polyacrylamide, Indole3, NAA, Vitamin B1, Kelp or Phosphorous acid.

A product can wind up on the "stop sale" list if for whatever reason a sample of the product they tested came back as not satisfying the guaranteed minimum analysis label. It doesn't necessarily indicate intentional mislabeling or malevolence on the part of the manufacturer.
 

crispypb840

Active Member
Good stuff. I was starting to worry. I want to learn true organics. Mixing my own soil and brewing tea. I started brewing EWC and molasses. I used it a few times in vegg. but I stopped. What do you think is a good method. Is there a mix you can suggest? Like one with more clay?
 

Nullis

Moderator
...
[SIZE=+1]Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss & Alaska Magic (Humus);[/SIZE]

Here is a look at a sample of Canadian Sphagnum peat moss Premier brand and a sample of Alaska Magic which is purported to be humus from Alaska. Both were purchased in Washington State and I examined them in a temporary lab situation using my portable microscope and laptop computer. In the first set of video clips we see the samples hydrated with distilled water and spread out on a microscope slide to have a look at the leaf and cell structure. In the narration for the Sphagnum peat moss I mistakenly describe it as 20X magnification (I meant the 20X objective) when it is actually 250X plus the camera lens effect.
Wait a second here... He doesn't say anything about General Hydro or "Ancient Forest" (I've been on Tim's website before). After a quick Google search I learn that the distributor of that particular brand of 'humus' (Alaska Magic): Alaska Soils LLC, is a defunct company- apparently no longer operating (wonder why).
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
...

Wait a second here... He doesn't say anything about General Hydro or "Ancient Forest" (I've been on Tim's website before). After a quick Google search I learn that the distributor of that particular brand of 'humus' (Alaska Magic): Alaska Soils LLC, is a defunct company- apparently no longer operating (wonder why).

That's where they acquired it. Alaskan soils / Alaskan humus is now Afaik and rebranded ancient forest through General Organics and Denali Gold.
 

Nullis

Moderator
That's where they acquired it. Alaskan soils / Alaskan humus is now Afaik and rebranded ancient forest through General Organics and Denali Gold.
... Lol. Not, it isn't. Ancient Forest has been Ancient Forest and distributed by General Hydro since I can remember. In fact, here is the trademark information for Ancient Forest: http://www.trademarkia.com/ancient-forest-77334705.html

So, GH has been selling "Ancient Forest" since at least around 2007 or 2008, according to the trademark registration.

Here is the trademark info for "Alaska Magic": http://www.trademarkia.com/alaskan-magic-78628643.html
That was registered as a TM in 2005/2006 and as of 12/28/2012 the registration was canceled. I imagine they filed for bankruptcy, but also I would guess the product was no longer sold even prior to that.

As you see, "Alaska Soils, LLC" was a limited liability company (unlike GH, INC). Denali Gold is a different product from an altogether different company (trademark info here), sold since 2008. There are a few brands of Alaskan forest humus, another one is Bountea Alaskan Humisoil. Alaska is a pretty big State you know.

Still, I know if you can't admit you were misinterpreting those web pages you keep posting, you're probably not going to admit this misconception either.
 

hyroot

Well-Known Member
Trademarks are just on the name only. Not recipe or contense...
I know for a fact that trademarks are only good for a year. There's federal trademarks and state trademarks then they have to get separate trademarks in every country and provence. Trademarks and copyrighting is part of my job. if you have only a cali state trademark. it won't hold up in other states. If you have a federal trademark. It won't hold up in other countries. What ever you say. I'm not going argue bulllshit. I know what an llc is. It's basically different licensing and taxes without having to do a fictitious name.
alaskan magic is Afaik out of Washington and denali gold is out of Washington and they buy from afaik. GH/Go is out of cali and they buy from afaik and hydrofarm and a few other companies. Hf has been trying to acquire GO. They just acquired r&m supply ( max lume, digilux, c.a.p., quantum, etc...) from discount hydro
'

Its just like gas stations. They all get their gas from the same distributor. Then they add their so called additives.. when its all the same except for exxon and arco. They have been in trouble several times for watering down gas with alcohol and that's been illegal since 1987.
 
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