People do not Understand Science, yeah I'm talking to you Creationist so bring it!

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
Debating with Christians on Religion is going to end in the same outcome, you will understand reality, they will hold to their beliefs.

They will dismiss every other single religion and recognize the ridiculousness of them but still believe in Jesus, Moses, Noah's Ark and every other piece of obvious (and laughable) fiction from the bible.

The truth is the only difference between an Atheist and a Christian is the belief in ONE less religion.

And I am really sick of the "Well Science can't explain it so God did it" Answer. And I am sick of Religion changing it's stance when they can no longer argue against science without looking obviously fake to even their followers. It's full of constant excuses and story changes. Religion is a joke.

If you were a member of 100 people instead of millions you would be considered a CULT, and if you were the only one who believed in that black book of BS you would be considered insane and we would treat you for it with medication, get enough people to fall for that crap and we call it religion. Absurd.
I disagree and know plenty of deconverted Xians that credit one or more atheists challenging their beliefs. I have seen it on forums just like this one as well IRL. I think some Xians are unreachable, but not everyone is immune to logical arguments. Anyone that can think rationally has a chance to come to an epiphany. OTOH, I have never seen anyone convert to religion by logical arguments, only by personal experience.
 

Catchin22

Well-Known Member
I disagree and know plenty of deconverted Xians that credit one or more atheists challenging their beliefs. I have seen it on forums just like this one as well IRL. I think some Xians are unreachable, but not everyone is immune to logical arguments. Anyone that can think rationally has a chance to come to an epiphany. OTOH, I have never seen anyone convert to religion by logical arguments, only by personal experience.
Oh I have converted my share as well, but in general... you will have the same thing. After a number of years it becomes very tiring. The best thing you can do IMO is just not accept it as being anything but ridiculous. Religion has spread because too much acceptance and that needs to stop.
 

Brick Top

New Member
Not to sound like I am taking the side of religion in this, but it is really rather silly to say how religion is not scientific and is unprovable, and even next to impossible to offer much, if any, real evidence.

But by the very nature of religion, proof is something that is totally noninclusive. The basis of religion is in faith, faith in what is not provable. If you could Google and find God's website, email address, home address, home telephone number that would pretty much completely do away with any and all need for faith, because you do not need faith to believe in something that is known and provable to exist.

If such an all powerful entity did create everything he would darn well be intelligent enough to be able to cover his tracks so no true proof of his existence and actions could ever be found so faith and faith alone would be all his followers would have to rely on or cling to.

So, you have this all powerful entity. He is omniscient, he always has been and he always will be. He can create matter of all kinds from absolute nothingness. Through the Big Bang or the 6-day creation story he created everything, man included.

Well man was his design, he knows it's limits. Also, having always known everything, and since he always will know everything, it is not as if he would not know the extents or limits of man's mind and science.

Don't you think a being so powerful and so intelligent could throw a few monkey wrenches in the works to keep man from ever discovering his actual existence?

OK, one of the big arguments between Bible thumpers and the heathens (joke there) is how long the earth has existed. The heathens have various beliefs, but then tend to run in the billions of years anyway. The Bible thumpers have the age of the earth, around where, something like 6,000-years? It has people and dinosaurs living together like "The Flintstones."

So now you have this all powerful entity that can create all types of matter from absolute nothingness, that (for the sake of argument) created everything, including man/woman, and he knows their limitations, he knows just how smart they can ever become and how advanced their science could ever be, and that is of course because he is and always was and always will be all knowing.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe an entity that intelligent and that capable might be able to play a few tricks, like lets say one with carbon dating and other forms of dating. He would have to know how they would be done one day, so maybe he throws in a wrinkle where when dating something, after whatever testing is being done, once a certain point is reached the answer given/found is no longer accurate, like things ages increase at a growing exponential rate, but he makes sure that it is done in a way that human science will never even wonder about it, let alone discover it, this making something maybe 5,000 years old appear to be 10 billion years old, or whatever. That throws science a curve and it helps retain the need for faith, because if science dated the earth at pretty much the same time The Bible did, then that is pretty good evidence that the Bible is correct and suddenly the amount of faith needed diminishes.

Does anyone actually believe that a true all knowing all powerful ever existing entity would be incapable of such things?

If such an entity exists he might be laughing his butt off watching all the scientists out to prove he does not exist chasing their tails and following dead end or totally misdirecting leads.

Remember now people, you're not just thinking of the smartest guy that ever graduated from M.I.T., or all of them together, plus a bunch others. You are talking about an eternal being of infinite power/ability and wisdom.

Shouldn't that be enough to outfox all the smartest humans in the world?

Anyone who does not believe that to be the case has, in their mind, elevated man to a point of almost equal, if not equal, infinite power/ability and wisdom, or else they would have to admit that such an entity could in fact fool all mankind for all time to protect the need for faith to continue to exist.

That's just a little something to mull over in your mind the next time you finish a bowl and then go and do a little deep thinking .............. that or I guess you can just take a newspaper along to read while you take a dump. It's your choice.
 

Catchin22

Well-Known Member
Not to sound like I am taking the side of religion in this, but it is really rather silly to say how religion is not scientific and is unprovable, and even next to impossible to offer much, if any, real evidence.

But by the very nature of religion, proof is something that is totally noninclusive. The basis of religion is in faith, faith in what is not provable. If you could Google and find God's website, email address, home address, home telephone number that would pretty much completely do away with any and all need for faith, because you do not need faith to believe in something that is known and provable to exist.

If such an all powerful entity did create everything he would darn well be intelligent enough to be able to cover his tracks so no true proof of his existence and actions could ever be found so faith and faith alone would be all his followers would have to rely on or cling to.

So, you have this all powerful entity. He is omniscient, he always has been and he always will be. He can create matter of all kinds from absolute nothingness. Through the Big Bang or the 6-day creation story he created everything, man included.

Well man was his design, he knows it's limits. Also, having always known everything, and since he always will know everything, it is not as if he would not know the extents or limits of man's mind and science.

Don't you think a being so powerful and so intelligent could throw a few monkey wrenches in the works to keep man from ever discovering his actual existence?

OK, one of the big arguments between Bible thumpers and the heathens (joke there) is how long the earth has existed. The heathens have various beliefs, but then tend to run in the billions of years anyway. The Bible thumpers have the age of the earth, around where, something like 6,000-years? It has people and dinosaurs living together like "The Flintstones."

So now you have this all powerful entity that can create all types of matter from absolute nothingness, that (for the sake of argument) created everything, including man/woman, and he knows their limitations, he knows just how smart they can ever become and how advanced their science could ever be, and that is of course because he is and always was and always will be all knowing.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe an entity that intelligent and that capable might be able to play a few tricks, like lets say one with carbon dating and other forms of dating. He would have to know how they would be done one day, so maybe he throws in a wrinkle where when dating something, after whatever testing is being done, once a certain point is reached the answer given/found is no longer accurate, like things ages increase at a growing exponential rate, but he makes sure that it is done in a way that human science will never even wonder about it, let alone discover it, this making something maybe 5,000 years old appear to be 10 billion years old, or whatever. That throws science a curve and it helps retain the need for faith, because if science dated the earth at pretty much the same time The Bible did, then that is pretty good evidence that the Bible is correct and suddenly the amount of faith needed diminishes.

Does anyone actually believe that a true all knowing all powerful ever existing entity would be incapable of such things?

If such an entity exists he might be laughing his butt off watching all the scientists out to prove he does not exist chasing their tails and following dead end or totally misdirecting leads.

Remember now people, you're not just thinking of the smartest guy that ever graduated from M.I.T., or all of them together, plus a bunch others. You are talking about an eternal being of infinite power/ability and wisdom.

Shouldn't that be enough to outfox all the smartest humans in the world?

Anyone who does not believe that to be the case has, in their mind, elevated man to a point of almost equal, if not equal, infinite power/ability and wisdom, or else they would have to admit that such an entity could in fact fool all mankind for all time to protect the need for faith to continue to exist.

That's just a little something to mull over in your mind the next time you finish a bowl and then go and do a little deep thinking .............. that or I guess you can just take a newspaper along to read while you take a dump. It's your choice.
There's no deep thinking about what you just said, sorry but none. Just more religious excuses, that is all it ever will be when you create a God.
 

Brick Top

New Member
If you’d like to try my trick, here are the steps: (1) Make a claim and apply it to a worthy cause. (2) Should people challenge assumptions underlying the claim, accuse them of opposing the cause. (3). Call them names and encourage others to jump on your bandwagon Thus it will make short work of any opponents.

Sooooooo, what you are actually saying is that all you need to do is to turn into a politician on your opponent, and once you have done that, you're in like Flynn.

Do you by chance have anything else 'new' to tell us about? Maybe, oh, I don't know, something like, there's gravity?
 

PbHash

Active Member
Brick Top: there are so many problems with your statements and like Catch22 said it isn't terribly deep. Also these claims/ideas have no basis.

Saying God started the big bang also has less pool roof than science. If you keep of with stuff like that you would know scientist don't think the big bang came from nothing.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
There's no deep thinking about what you just said, sorry but none. Just more religious excuses, that is all it ever will be when you create a God.
Actually, BT has a point that if there were a creator being, he must go to great lengths to deceive. Of course this begs the question of why such a being would do such a thing while simultaneously requesting that people worship him? An odd request for something that wants to remain hidden and even more odd that people should want to praise such a deceptive creature.
 

Catchin22

Well-Known Member
Actually, BT has a point that if there were a creator being, he must go to great lengths to deceive. Of course this begs the question of why such a being would do such a thing while simultaneously requesting that people worship him? An odd request for something that wants to remain hidden and even more odd that people should want to praise such a deceptive creature.
Maybe, in theory but does not do a single thing to validate the remote possibility of a God. I could apply the same theories to that of invisible pink elephants, it's nonsense.

What really makes me shudder as at one point a long long time ago, I would have considered myself religious, and the arguments here are probably not far off from what I would have offered too. You need to realize you've been brain washed, and it's okay. It's nothing to be embarrassed about, but drop it before it's too late or you brainwash others as well. Living your life in a lie is not rewarding. Those debates you have constantly in your head over if you or right or wrong can all be solved through atheism. The truth as we know it, is always the answer.
 

PbHash

Active Member
catch22: so right. Use God as a fill in the blank, take out God and insert any object or idea. Still would be stuck with an improbable theory/idea
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Sooooooo, what you are actually saying is that all you need to do is to turn into a politician on your opponent, and once you have done that, you're in like Flynn.

Do you by chance have anything else 'new' to tell us about? Maybe, oh, I don't know, something like, there's gravity?
My intent was to characterize the post I quoted, not to inform people of an actual tactic.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
Not to sound like I am taking the side of religion in this, but it is really rather silly to say how religion is not scientific and is unprovable, and even next to impossible to offer much, if any, real evidence.

But by the very nature of religion, proof is something that is totally noninclusive. The basis of religion is in faith, faith in what is not provable. If you could Google and find God's website, email address, home address, home telephone number that would pretty much completely do away with any and all need for faith, because you do not need faith to believe in something that is known and provable to exist.

If such an all powerful entity did create everything he would darn well be intelligent enough to be able to cover his tracks so no true proof of his existence and actions could ever be found so faith and faith alone would be all his followers would have to rely on or cling to.

So, you have this all powerful entity. He is omniscient, he always has been and he always will be. He can create matter of all kinds from absolute nothingness. Through the Big Bang or the 6-day creation story he created everything, man included.

Well man was his design, he knows it's limits. Also, having always known everything, and since he always will know everything, it is not as if he would not know the extents or limits of man's mind and science.

Don't you think a being so powerful and so intelligent could throw a few monkey wrenches in the works to keep man from ever discovering his actual existence?

OK, one of the big arguments between Bible thumpers and the heathens (joke there) is how long the earth has existed. The heathens have various beliefs, but then tend to run in the billions of years anyway. The Bible thumpers have the age of the earth, around where, something like 6,000-years? It has people and dinosaurs living together like "The Flintstones."

So now you have this all powerful entity that can create all types of matter from absolute nothingness, that (for the sake of argument) created everything, including man/woman, and he knows their limitations, he knows just how smart they can ever become and how advanced their science could ever be, and that is of course because he is and always was and always will be all knowing.

Do you think that maybe, just maybe an entity that intelligent and that capable might be able to play a few tricks, like lets say one with carbon dating and other forms of dating. He would have to know how they would be done one day, so maybe he throws in a wrinkle where when dating something, after whatever testing is being done, once a certain point is reached the answer given/found is no longer accurate, like things ages increase at a growing exponential rate, but he makes sure that it is done in a way that human science will never even wonder about it, let alone discover it, this making something maybe 5,000 years old appear to be 10 billion years old, or whatever. That throws science a curve and it helps retain the need for faith, because if science dated the earth at pretty much the same time The Bible did, then that is pretty good evidence that the Bible is correct and suddenly the amount of faith needed diminishes.

Does anyone actually believe that a true all knowing all powerful ever existing entity would be incapable of such things?

If such an entity exists he might be laughing his butt off watching all the scientists out to prove he does not exist chasing their tails and following dead end or totally misdirecting leads.

Remember now people, you're not just thinking of the smartest guy that ever graduated from M.I.T., or all of them together, plus a bunch others. You are talking about an eternal being of infinite power/ability and wisdom.

Shouldn't that be enough to outfox all the smartest humans in the world?

Anyone who does not believe that to be the case has, in their mind, elevated man to a point of almost equal, if not equal, infinite power/ability and wisdom, or else they would have to admit that such an entity could in fact fool all mankind for all time to protect the need for faith to continue to exist.

That's just a little something to mull over in your mind the next time you finish a bowl and then go and do a little deep thinking .............. that or I guess you can just take a newspaper along to read while you take a dump. It's your choice.

You are basically saying that a being powerful enough to fool us is powerful enough to fool us. No real way to disagree with that. If I were to accept such a situation as reality, I think I would still have the desire to see the universe unwoven, if for no other reason than to see just how eleborate the deception can get. God has thrown some really interesting counter-intelligence our way so far, it would be exciting to see what he has in store next.
 

PbHash

Active Member
So if God is trying to be so elusive, why should I be punished for not believing in him? I'm just looking for the truth so if he is hiding it, why? I know Christians are supposed to have faith but if you give me nothing to work with then I feel I'm not to blame.
 

Heisenberg

Well-Known Member
There's no deep thinking about what you just said, sorry but none. Just more religious excuses, that is all it ever will be when you create a God.
Brick Top: there are so many problems with your statements and like Catch22 said it isn't terribly deep. Also these claims/ideas have no basis.
I think we are entertaining the idea in and of itself, not necessarily in the context that it lends credit to creationism. All of us commenting so far are atheists after all... and BT did announce that he likes to play the opposition, so I am assuming he seeks actual exploration of the topic rather than just saying it's all bunk. We know it's bunk, and it's refreshing to get some actual thought on the subject other than "the bible says so', which is the best most creationists can do.
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
You are basically saying that a being powerful enough to fool us is powerful enough to fool us. No real way to disagree with that. If I were to accept such a situation as reality, I think I would still have the desire to see the universe unwoven, if for no other reason than to see just how eleborate the deception can get. God has thrown some really interesting counter-intelligence our way so far, it would be exciting to see what he has in store next.
...maybe, just maybe, He'd make it so people might see that there is a web or framework to this world. Also, if the idea is that the universe is expanding, He'll give the understanding that it is not conducive to finding 'neighbors'. As an added bonus, he'll let people in on the fact that the bible (+ other Holy books) are required reading for studying particle physics. This is where the the 'laughing god' comes in - He knows we still won't figure it out. 'RelationSHIP'

:razz:
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.
...what is cool is that we all have an understanding that is unique to ourselves. "questions that may never be answered" = "mystery" (ok, good)

...what is cool, also, is that this 'uniqueness' we all share is a unique whole that cannot be separated (God). So, now, relationship plays a key role. Like us and breathing, f.e. (ok, also good)

...the mind separates (creates division) for the benefit of the flesh. It compartmentalizes every single event it is aware of (etc.). The compassionate mind creates by not creating (sorry :) ) strife.

It is almost like saying 'un-divide and be conquered' (by the real self - the rightful 'king')
 

guy incognito

Well-Known Member
...okay, cool. Keep it out of the classroom. Likewise, keep science out of things that creationists deem 'unknowable'. To creationists (that I know), it's okay to not know something. That's really the whole of the debate. You want to 'keep it science' in the classroom (...and politics and and). We want to keep it 'unknown' in the affairs of love and hate and blah blah.

'Mystery' is not a scientific term, we get that. And, why do you care if when in a scientific setting I say the materials being studied are from God? Do you 'own' the rights to clinical settings? Why are you the enforcer of rules? Aren't those bad?

Maybe I'll use indents and stuff to look more scientific when speaking to you?
Wait a minute. It's ok to not know something, and that is ok with creationist? Isn't being a creationist by definition accepting a story with no evidence whatsoever instead of saying "I don't know"?
 

eye exaggerate

Well-Known Member
Wait a minute. It's ok to not know something, and that is ok with creationist? Isn't being a creationist by definition accepting a story with no evidence whatsoever instead of saying "I don't know"?
...wow, I had to turn my head to the side to get that one.

I'm saying life's a mystery, and that's it.
 
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