People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study.

jfgordon1 said:

[youtube]SQLOuL0qa5I[/youtube]

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so Y is there still (itsa cruel process), thanks for da info, I"ma Pantheist Maw' , whew!!!! I thought I was stuck being an atheist.......they suck 2


check this out http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/

Stoney McFried said:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." -Albert Einstein.

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It's only natural for churchers to repeat lies till they believe them to be true. They have been taught well.


out.

And just as an aside...Einstein's IQ was never officially measured.He had a hell of a problem doing simple mathematics, but he was a brilliant physicist.Some folks have theorized he may have been a bit of a savant..... And, also, someone else mentioned Galileo, copernicus, etc....all folks who never had their IQ measured.And Galileo had good reason to capitulate, the catholic church rode his ass until he died. Since most mentioned were NOT modern men,it stands to reason that they were men of their times, in the grip of the superstition of their times.Many other great and intelligent men were brave enough to be agnostics or atheists.Take our founding fathers.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816[/FONT]
John adams

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."[/FONT] Ben Franklin
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -in Poor Richard's Almanac[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] James Madison -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.[/FONT]
Thomas Paine
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]

CrackerJax said:

It's only natural for churchers to repeat lies till they believe them to be true. They have been taught well.


out.

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Farooq87 said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-%27less-likely-to-believe-in-God%27.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=bdb3ca48b21fdb2959f6f8ce4b6001de

Discuss....

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Who cares? I don't know anything about god. Never met one personally, but I would never label another person stupid for being a believer.

Religion is a deeply personal choice. As a free man, what I believe has no bearing on anyone else. And what others believe is none of my business.

i have noticed reading on this forum and in other discussions that people arguing against religion(atheists/agnostics etc..) have thoughts and points to there posts. where as the religious people just spin there wheels and do not make much sense or articulate very well it is just blind following very scary. religion simply is a superstition and a crutch for weak minded individuals who cannot or choose not to think on there own.

CrackerJax said:

That's why IQ measures POTENTIAL, not ACTUALITY.

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That right there shows how ludicrous it is to use ones belief in God or lack of belief in God and basing it on the person’s IQ as if is proof the person is higher educated or more intelligent.

They may have the ability to if they have the desire and motivation to become higher educated and more intelligent but someone with the highest IQ that follows his father’s footsteps and does get a higher education and instead takes over the family business of pumping out septic tanks will never be as educated as someone with a lower IQ who does get a higher education.

My IQ is 147 and while I did attend and graduate college I majored in business and then ended up a American franchise car dealer as a part owner and then we sold our dealership and purchased a marina and became a boat dealer. We purchased a small run down marina that did not sell boats and turned it into the largest marina on the 50,000 plus acre lake we were on and became the second largest dealer in the U.S. for the type of pontoon boat we sold and we did it in a very rural area.

I myself averaged 200 new boats sold every season which made me the number one salesperson in the U.S. for our line of boats for four years in a row. I used my intelligence to sell our product and could do it because I not only knew our product like the back of my hand but also knew all our competitors products like the back of my hand and could therefore sell against them. I would tell people about the boat they were comparing to ours, not in a negative way but only in a comparative way, and they would go back and compare and talk to the salesperson and come back and purchase from me and tell me that when they brought up things I mentioned about the other boats and asked the salesperson questions about it they normally did not have a clue and either had to look up the information or just say they did not know.

Then we sold the marina and that was why I was able to retire at the age of 49.

So I became educated in what I needed to be educated in and then used my intelligence to my advantage but I would never come close to saying I am as educated as many people who possess a lower IQ who went into other fields of study and different lines of work.

If you do not use your gifts to their fullest potential someone less gifted will pass you when it comes to knowledge if they fully use their lesser potential. So IQ alone is not in any way a measurement of intelligence or education but only one of the capacity to become educated and intelligent.

So if I were one of those asked if I believed in God or not and was then listed by my IQ level people would look at my level and say wow, he is as or more intelligent than a physician or a scientist or an attorney or those at the upper levels of government (which I would find to be somewhat contradictory considering the sheer ignorance of those at the upper levels of government) when in fact all I did was sold cars and boats and ran two businesses in a small rural Southern town and never fully utilized my potential and became as educated and as intelligent as many with a lower IQ.

I top most people when it comes to capability to learn but when it comes to education and gathered knowledge I am not and never will be in the same league as many with less capability who fully utilized their potential and became more educated and gathered more knowledge in their lifetime.

So why would my belief be more valid than someone else’s who has a lower IQ level? Just because mine topped theirs by 5 points or 11 points or whatever? They are higher educated and have far more knowledge and have proven that they more fully utilize their potential than I have so to me their belief should be more valid than mine.

Also possessing a high IQ does not mean that someone will necessarily be able to figure out anything and everything they attempt to do. There are no known records of Albert Einstein ever having taken an IQ test. The estimates of his IQ vary widely but most so called experts guess that it was roughly 183.

My ex-neighbor has an IQ of 198. He worked at Duke University doing DNA research and has since been transferred to a Duke University operated facility in Miami and heads the department.

One day he came over and asked if I would help him with something. His lawn tractor needed a new belt, one that drives the blades, and he could not figure out how to remove the mower deck. I helped him but I mainly just told him what to do so he would then learn it and be able to do it alone the next time. I told him to pay attention to the routing of the old belt before he removed it. When it came time to install the new belt he could not figure out how to route it to save his life. I showed him and he said he had it but later in the summer he snapped the new belt and had to replace it once again he was back asking for help because he still could not do it alone.

So there is an example of someone intelligent enough to understand the secrets and workings of DNA, something I know nothing at all about, but yet he could not figure out something as simple as changing the mower deck belt on his lawn tractor not only the first time he needed to do so but also not all that much later after having been taught how to do it.

Someone’s IQ level and overall intelligence can work in mysterious and limited ways. Some things will come easily to them and when it comes to other things they may be and remain clueless or next to clueless.

So when it comes to two things, creationism or the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution, how or why is their personal opinion any more valid than that of anyone else’s? Both creationism and The Big Bang Theory require faith to believe in them in that neither one has been conclusively proven and are both are no more than chosen beliefs.

One has a book, well actually several books, that tell people how things allegedly occurred and the other is basically a belief based on what is considered to be a cause and effect where a supposed effect was looked at and then a cause for it was theorized.

Both belief structures have holes and gaps in them that require a leap of faith for them to be accepted so in essence one is a belief based on the existence of some higher being that religious writings claim to exist and the other is a belief based on a theory devised by man.

In a way both are religions even though some came into existence thousands of years ago and the other much later in time and the main similarity between the two beliefs is the need to hold a solid faith in core beliefs that are unproven and their main difference is what each ones core belief is.

Both belief structures have holes and gaps in them that require a leap of faith for them to be accepted so in essence one is a belief based on the existence of some higher being that religious writings claim to exist and the other is a belief based on a theory devised by man.

yes, of course IQ is not the end all barometer of intelligence. It is however a good measurement of one's ability to be logical. It is no surprise that over 90% of scientists are either agnostic/atheist.

And of course IQ (intellect quotient) does not mean EQ (economic quotient).

Can highly educated people fall into the myth of religion? Absolutely! Everyone has their blind spots and myth is something hard wired into the human brain as a coping mechanism I believe. Many thousands of years ago when primordial man was running through the forest with a hungry lion after his ass, the thought that there must be something better than this!! And so it began. We are verbal creatures and we love to tell stories, retelling them and reworking them. This is how the Bible was produced.

Now of course if one is educated and ACTUALLY reads the Bible....it is quite OBVIOUS that it is not a historical, but rather an allegorical story as was the writing style of those times, unless you were a scribe. the Bible was not written by scribes. Heck, we don't even know who the majority of the authors really were! So, the Bible being the "living word" is preposterous from the get go.

I have absolutely no problem with folks leaning on an allegorical story for support.

I do have a problem with folks who insist it is true. It is not true.

That is why a MAJORITY of the educated do NOT believe. It does not mean however, that all educated people can see through the mirage which has been set up by the church, for power and money.

That's all


out.

Brick Top said:

That right there shows how ludicrous it is to use ones belief in God or lack of belief in God and basing it on the person’s IQ as if is proof the person is higher educated or more intelligent.

They may have the ability to if they have the desire and motivation to become higher educated and more intelligent but someone with the highest IQ that follows his father’s footsteps and does get a higher education and instead takes over the family business of pumping out septic tanks will never be as educated as someone with a lower IQ who does get a higher education.

My IQ is 147 and while I did attend and graduate college I majored in business and then ended up a American franchise car dealer as a part owner and then we sold our dealership and purchased a marina and became a boat dealer. We purchased a small run down marina that did not sell boats and turned it into the largest marina on the 50,000 plus acre lake we were on and became the second largest dealer in the U.S. for the type of pontoon boat we sold and we did it in a very rural area.

I myself averaged 200 new boats sold every season which made me the number one salesperson in the U.S. for our line of boats for four years in a row. I used my intelligence to sell our product and could do it because I not only knew our product like the back of my hand but also knew all our competitors products like the back of my hand and could therefore sell against them. I would tell people about the boat they were comparing to ours, not in a negative way but only in a comparative way, and they would go back and compare and talk to the salesperson and come back and purchase from me and tell me that when they brought up things I mentioned about the other boats and asked the salesperson questions about it they normally did not have a clue and either had to look up the information or just say they did not know.

Then we sold the marina and that was why I was able to retire at the age of 49.

So I became educated in what I needed to be educated in and then used my intelligence to my advantage but I would never come close to saying I am as educated as many people who possess a lower IQ who went into other fields of study and different lines of work.

If you do not use your gifts to their fullest potential someone less gifted will pass you when it comes to knowledge if they fully use their lesser potential. So IQ alone is not in any way a measurement of intelligence or education but only one of the capacity to become educated and intelligent.

So if I were one of those asked if I believed in God or not and was then listed by my IQ level people would look at my level and say wow, he is as or more intelligent than a physician or a scientist or an attorney or those at the upper levels of government (which I would find to be somewhat contradictory considering the sheer ignorance of those at the upper levels of government) when in fact all I did was sold cars and boats and ran two businesses in a small rural Southern town and never fully utilized my potential and became as educated and as intelligent as many with a lower IQ.

I top most people when it comes to capability to learn but when it comes to education and gathered knowledge I am not and never will be in the same league as many with less capability who fully utilized their potential and became more educated and gathered more knowledge in their lifetime.

So why would my belief be more valid than someone else’s who has a lower IQ level? Just because mine topped theirs by 5 points or 11 points or whatever? They are higher educated and have far more knowledge and have proven that they more fully utilize their potential than I have so to me their belief should be more valid than mine.

Also possessing a high IQ does not mean that someone will necessarily be able to figure out anything and everything they attempt to do. There are no known records of Albert Einstein ever having taken an IQ test. The estimates of his IQ vary widely but most so called experts guess that it was roughly 183.

My ex-neighbor has an IQ of 198. He worked at Duke University doing DNA research and has since been transferred to a Duke University operated facility in Miami and heads the department.

One day he came over and asked if I would help him with something. His lawn tractor needed a new belt, one that drives the blades, and he could not figure out how to remove the mower deck. I helped him but I mainly just told him what to do so he would then learn it and be able to do it alone the next time. I told him to pay attention to the routing of the old belt before he removed it. When it came time to install the new belt he could not figure out how to route it to save his life. I showed him and he said he had it but later in the summer he snapped the new belt and had to replace it once again he was back asking for help because he still could not do it alone.

So there is an example of someone intelligent enough to understand the secrets and workings of DNA, something I know nothing at all about, but yet he could not figure out something as simple as changing the mower deck belt on his lawn tractor not only the first time he needed to do so but also not all that much later after having been taught how to do it.

Someone’s IQ level and overall intelligence can work in mysterious and limited ways. Some things will come easily to them and when it comes to other things they may be and remain clueless or next to clueless.

So when it comes to two things, creationism or the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution, how or why is their personal opinion any more valid than that of anyone else’s? Both creationism and The Big Bang Theory require faith to believe in them in that neither one has been conclusively proven and are both are no more than chosen beliefs.

One has a book, well actually several books, that tell people how things allegedly occurred and the other is basically a belief based on what is considered to be a cause and effect where a supposed effect was looked at and then a cause for it was theorized.

Both belief structures have holes and gaps in them that require a leap of faith for them to be accepted so in essence one is a belief based on the existence of some higher being that religious writings claim to exist and the other is a belief based on a theory devised by man.

In a way both are religions even though some came into existence thousands of years ago and the other much later in time and the main similarity between the two beliefs is the need to hold a solid faith in core beliefs that are unproven and their main difference is what each ones core belief is.

Both belief structures have holes and gaps in them that require a leap of faith for them to be accepted so in essence one is a belief based on the existence of some higher being that religious writings claim to exist and the other is a belief based on a theory devised by man.

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nice work bricktop, i hope i can retire like that too at some point.

my goal is to not have to work anymore, and instead of going to work in the morning I will make my new job working out and being helthy untill say maybe lunch time

then ill just chill and play with the kids. well actully by then i guess it will be grandkids

I love how everyone here who stated their IQ is basically at genius level. Apparently the "average" of 100 isnt common among us tokers? You people need to go sign up for MENSA with your IQ's jeeze.


But to add my opinion: My IQ as of like 15 years ago (when I was very young and was tested to join those elementary school "gifted programs") is 135. I have no clue if its changed since then. BUT I am also agnostic, adding to the many many high IQ people who are not believers. Logically and rationally, how can people believe in something that has NO proof?

i think it is silly to think that everything around us.. not just on this planet but in our galaxy.. our galaxy which is in space, where there is an infinite amount of galaxies expanding through the vacuum... just happened by accident.. a big bang.

one of the few things that we know for sure about this energy field that swirls around us is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms.

if this is true then that means that every star, every galaxy expanding, every planetary orbit had to come from somewhere. it didn't just show up after two molecules collided, that's just ludicrous. i could go into all the technicalities but that is a totally different thread...

anyways all of this energy, life, space, was created by something... whether you want to call it a god, or a cosmically intertwined energy continuum, or whatever.

now, as far as religion goes, if you go back and study ancient religions, they all have many correlating stories such as giants among men, gods on earth, great floods etc. and they also have many correlating ideas such as treating others well, not to kill each other, be a good person and whatnot..

the bible contains many of these themes and stories, even more so when you look at the books of the bible that were "voted" out by the church like enoch, gospels of thomas, 14 books of apocrypha, acts of peter and the apostles, not to mention parts of the books that have descriptions of a creation of "man" before adam in the kabbalah with lilith, and other aspects which battled the direction the church was going, and the control it had over the people...

anyways more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else.. are these holy warriors crusaders of god, or vicious murderers? or does god have mercy because they were mislead? what about all the barbarians on the other side? were they punished and banished to hell because they did not have the privelage of being born in israel, or england instead of an eastern nation? what about the numerous corruptions in the church, and the use of religion as a tool of control for thousands of years? what about the priests who rape little boys and are just moved to different chapters of the church? christian leaders seem to be more evil and twisted than the so called heretics in other religions such as the buddhists and taoists... but both sides of the coin can be debated so i dont want to get into that..

the point is that i dont see how a god would create something so beatiful, not only on this earth but throughout our infinite universe.. then confine us to this planet, and put us in this epic battle between good and evil just as some kind of sick test to punish those who cant see past the hypocricy of the church? and the various historical flaws in the bible? and the similarities of other religions? what kind of god is that?

that being said, heres what i believe..

i believe that we are spiritual beings trapped within an earlthy vessel. no doubt about it.. i believe that we are trapped by our senses into a reality that is engrained into us by our surroundings.. ancient civilizations were supposedly so barbaric, however they had a much deeper understanding of the world around us, and astrology, and spirituality than most people care to admit... i believe that over time we have degressed from spirituality, to reality, and have forgotten our spiritual roots..

we are in a life long struggle to find our spirit, be in touch with our cosmic energy, and to fight off the distractions of the world around us.

i believe that there is a spiritual world going on all around us that we cannot see or interact with.. call it a dimension, call it an alternate universe or whatever.. but is it so hard to believe? we have radio waves, microwaves, infra red, radiation and all kinds of different energies passing through our body every milisecond that we cannot see, hear, taste smell, or feel, but that does not mean that they arent there..

when we die, i believe that our spirit is released into our next life, which is a spiritual life.. back to the law that no energy can be created or destroyed.. when we die, that energy field that has been coarsing through us doesnt just stop and dissappear and go cold, it changes form. what form is what we do not know, and that is the quest that we look for our whole lives...

so in short, i do believe we are spiritual beings, i do beleive we were created by something, at some time, and i do not believe that there is any one religion, or any one path to a heaven or a hell (which was created by the church in the first place).. i believe that nobody will be able to tell you what it is until you get there..

FLo

Why would any SUPREME being design a world based on carnage...

out.

Johnnyorganic said:

Who cares? I don't know anything about god. Never met one personally, but I would never label another person stupid for being a believer.

Religion is a deeply personal choice. As a free man, what I believe has no bearing on anyone else. And what others believe is none of my business.

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It's just an opinion up for debate, kind of like whether or not marijuana should be legal, or how the economy is going to affect us... I think any opinion is nobodies business until they voice it, and people are encouraged to voice their opinions on God's existence/lack their of if they so choose. Nobody is being forced here to give their opinion.

Schwaggg said:

I love how everyone here who stated their IQ is basically at genius level. Apparently the "average" of 100 isnt common among us tokers? You people need to go sign up for MENSA with your IQ's jeeze.


But to add my opinion: My IQ as of like 15 years ago (when I was very young and was tested to join those elementary school "gifted programs") is 135. I have no clue if its changed since then. BUT I am also agnostic, adding to the many many high IQ people who are not believers. Logically and rationally, how can people believe in something that has NO proof?

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well, i'm not here to debate how some 1 believes in GOD,.....but one is logically and rationally able to believe whateva if there is evidence......

Let me explain.........., love, hate, joy, anger, etc. are none tangible, but thay are felt and recognized by all......no matter whether yours, mine, or others interpetations may differ......Hopefully, I may claim all have had some experience with these emotions..... I say claim b/c they are evident to only you in respect.

So in short, a person can believe through experience, and through experience, find evidence that is physical, or intangible, that may further reinforce, or either dissipate that belief and possibly awaken a higher understanding, which virtually means nothing as well, if it is not brought forth in evidence......

Sorry, I neva took, (or remember) taking a IQ test, not recently anyway, but here Ill throw this out there.......1 of my favorite # is 45,.......My IQ is 45.....so I guess that puts me on the wrong side of the fence (aaayyyy)

schwaggg....my answer is not right tho!! I just like yapping (lol) but thanks for asking.....respectfully

crunked said:

It's just an opinion up for debate, kind of like whether or not marijuana should be legal, or how the economy is going to affect us... I think any opinion is nobodies business until they voice it, and people are encouraged to voice their opinions on God's existence/lack their of if they so choose. Nobody is being forced here to give their opinion.

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Who said anything about a forced opinion?

My opinion was not directed against those offering theirs.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the premise of this thread seems to be that studies indicate that less intelligent people cling to religion. It simply seemed like an opportunity to bash religious, or less intelligent, folks.

My opinion is such an exercise seems a shade arrogant and condescending. An exercise which, in my opinion, serves to do the opposite of encouraging a free and open exchange of ideas, or opinions. As evidenced by the paucity of religious posters on this thread.

Johnnyorganic said:

Who said anything about a forced opinion?

My opinion was not directed against those offering theirs.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the premise of this thread seems to be that studies indicate that less intelligent people cling to religion. It simply seemed like an opportunity to bash religious, or less intelligent, folks.

My opinion is such an exercise seems a shade arrogant and condescending. An exercise which, in my opinion, serves to do the opposite of encouraging a free and open exchange of ideas, or opinions. As evidenced by the paucity of religious posters on this thread.

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It wasn't posted as "People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study - because they're so much smarter!"

(Bold got stuck on here for some reason, not meant to be all in bold)

It was posted as "People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study. - DISCUSS"

There are still many valid arguments against the accuracy of this argument or what it may be trying to hint at. Like one person already mentioned, you're more likely to get a higher IQ if you're more educated, have had more science pumped into your brain, and hence probably use evidence and proof to backup your beliefs. The point of the posting as far as I can tell wasn't meant to be menacing, just to start a debate.

The posters who are offended are offended more than likely because they are not comfortable with the results of the study that suggests people with lower IQ's tend to believe in God more than those with higher IQ's. Uncomfortable - that's what makes for a good debate. If the claim was "all IQ's more or less believe the same" it would be a very boring debate indeed.

crunked said:

It wasn't posted as "People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study - because they're so much smarter!"

(Bold got stuck on here for some reason, not meant to be all in bold)

It was posted as "People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study. - DISCUSS"

There are still many valid arguments against the accuracy of this argument or what it may be trying to hint at. Like one person already mentioned, you're more likely to get a higher IQ if you're more educated, have had more science pumped into your brain, and hence probably use evidence and proof to backup your beliefs. The point of the posting as far as I can tell wasn't meant to be menacing, just to start a debate.

The posters who are offended are offended more than likely because they are not comfortable with the results of the study that suggests people with lower IQ's tend to believe in God more than those with higher IQ's. Uncomfortable - that's what makes for a good debate. If the claim was "all IQ's more or less believe the same" it would be a very boring debate indeed.

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I don't recall writing anything about offensive posts.

This entire thread seems to be an opportunity for an intellectual circle jerk. "Look how smart we are!"

As far as intelligence versus religious views. Noodle this out:

I am agnostic, yet I use currency which clearly states on it 'In God We Trust.' Furthermore, I live in a state where churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. are tax exempt, which means they are subsidized by me.

Now tell me, who has the upper hand? The less intelligent religious types, or me - the free thinker?

Johnnyorganic said:

I don't recall writing anything about offensive posts.

This entire thread seems to be an opportunity for an intellectual circle jerk. "Look how smart we are!"

As far as intelligence versus religious views. Noodle this out:

I am agnostic, yet I use currency which clearly states on it 'In God We Trust.' Furthermore, I live in a state where churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. are tax exempt, which means they are subsidized by me.

Now tell me, who has the upper hand? The less intelligent religious types, or me - the free thinker?

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For the offensive posts comment, I was under the impression you thought this thread "unworthy" because it offended readers/was aimed at offending readers. But even if it is a circle jerk thread, let them jerk each other off!

As far as your agnostic stance I'm not sure if you were asking for my two cents? It sounds like were though.. I think it makes sense to be agnostic if you haven't bothered debating the issue of God very much, but to have searched for God, searched for proof, read arguments for/against His existence, or anything along those lines and then still remain agnostic is kind of like saying "I don't know what I believe in regards to black matter" after taking courses on cosmology that cover black matter. You may not know much about the theories for and against black matter right now, and will undoubtedly never see black matter, but you can still make a decision after you've been informed of the arguments for and against it. So if you haven't pondered God's existence, agnosticism makes perfect sense to me. If you have pondered it somewhat deeply, I find it hard to believe that the arguments for and against weighed each other out evenly.. though I suppose anything is possible.

crunked said:

For the offensive posts comment, I was under the impression you thought this thread "unworthy" because it offended readers/was aimed at offending readers. But even if it is a circle jerk thread, let them jerk each other off!

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All I said was 'Who cares!' Spirituality is a deeply personal choice.

Many people smarter than me are believers.

Frankly I could care less who is offended. I offend people regularly. And I do not wish to defend anyone who would be offended by mere words.

I suppose it is simply the elitist tenor of the entire thread that rankles my contrarian nature.

crunked said:

As far as your agnostic stance I'm not sure if you were asking for my two cents? It sounds like were though..

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I wasn't. I was simply using it for example, but I welcome your input.

crunked said:

I think it makes sense to be agnostic if you haven't bothered debating the issue of God very much, but to have searched for God, searched for proof, read arguments for/against His existence, or anything along those lines and then still remain agnostic is kind of like saying "I don't know what I believe in regards to black matter" after taking courses on cosmology that cover black matter. You may not know much about the theories for and against black matter right now, and will undoubtedly never see black matter, but you can still make a decision after you've been informed of the arguments for and against it.

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Dark matter is hypothetical matter. Astronomers who have studied it for decades have no idea what it actually is.

For my purposes, it is a good example. I can call myself agnostic for the same reason cosmologists shrug when asked the composition of dark matter. They just don't know. Not enough data.

Frankly, I am very comfortable saying 'I don't know and I don't presume to know either way.' As far as I know, I have never been dead. I have no concept of an afterlife. An afterlife is as plausible to me as the cold, dark, void once we shake off this mortal coil.

crunked said:

So if you haven't pondered God's existence, agnosticism makes perfect sense to me. If you have pondered it somewhat deeply, I find it hard to believe that the arguments for and against weighed each other out evenly.. though I suppose anything is possible.

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For a long time I was certain there was a god: The surly god of Abraham who demanded my allegiance out of fear of damnation.

Later I was just as sure there was no god.

Eventually I simply came to the conclusion I was not sure of anything because both sides are based on the words and reasoning of man.

In short: I simply don't know and that's fine with me.

Nor do I feel compelled to enlist adherents or waste energy defending my position. Deeply personal choice, remember?

I figure I'll find out soon enough.

i havnt read any part of this thread exept the title but i do agree. someone with higher intelligence would believe what is logical and makes sense and would stick to science which is based on fact. some people just need religion to get them through though

CrackerJax said:

Why would any SUPREME being design a world based on carnage...

out.

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I can Answer that 4 You, but it will cost you your soul.......

but if you want to keep it fine, I'll let you work for it, and then you can OWN it, ponder on the Human Cell for a while


(oops)DYK: That the Human Body completely replaces itself entirely about every 10yrs....In Meaning you are A completely New You every 8 to 10 - 12 yrs