Religious faithw v

MixedMelodyMindBender said:

For myself, God is a matter far greater then the greatest thoughts conceived to the human cognitive. In any religion, God is Above the capacity of the human intellect.

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Those religions we speak against are the ones saying they know exactly what god wants, thinks, and intends. They know what he approves and disaporoves of, how he will punish and reward, ect. The only time they claim god is beyond comprehension is when they want to avoid accountability or cognitive dissonance.

To sit and debate from a believers stand point is something preached against, and so by God himself. Its pointless. In my eyes, God has made it so, so that most will find out at the fearful stage of death, and the saved find out by faith.

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So God has made it pointless to find common ground with non-believers? God discourages believers explaining or demonstrating their belief? God only accepts those who pass the test of blind faith? These seem like odd policies for someone who holds all wisdom, but I guess we can't understand his ways, even though you re claiming some very specific understanding here.

A gift can be rejected. I'd rather take it, then to later wish I had took the gift. I would rather believe in God, then believe in mankind.

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Sounds a bit like hedging your bets, but I recognize the honesty here. You are unable to find faith in mankind and see god as the alternative. I could list the reasons you should have confidence and find security in mankind, but I could make an equal list of why you shouldn't. There is reasoning behind not trusting mankind. The point though is that this does not give us a reason to believe in, much less trust in, God.

I think atheists have a skewed and biased view of believers and their beliefs... When i try and have a discussion about my beliefs with atheists, they have no idea what i am talking about because it is a personal experience... and for those that say they CAN be replicated in a lab, get a life man... i have tried plenty of drugs and i love to workout both of which release dopamine... both of which have never ever REPLICATED the experience i had when i stepped into the light per se...

I am a christian and i accept evolution and enjoy the subject plenty!

what i hate on here is the skewed perception that most atheists on here have of believers which lacks plenty of logical rationale and demonstrates and small understanding of the entire world...

I always hear religion... well why do believers have to have the same dogma as religion if we ourselves do not condone what most mainstream religions are doing?


atheists do not have to say they are smarter or more intelligent, their actions say everything...

PbHash said:

Oly- I don't think Athiest say they are all smarter and more intelligent than believers but they think that believers have a huge flaw in their rationality and critical thinking.

From experience I have learned that many Christians have a very skewed view of what scientific evidence has proven and believes. I have tried to have evolution conversations with some Christians and I couldn't because their basic understanding of how evolution happened is so biased and skewed. They think bc there is a missing link that evolution is disproven! Most people cant even trace their family liniage back 200 years! Religion has an agenda, that agenda is to keep the world in line with their Christian views and beliefs. Science has an agenda, understand how things work.

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Heisenberg said:

Those religions we speak against are the ones saying they know exactly what god wants, thinks, and intends. They know what he approves and disaporoves of, how he will punish and reward, ect. The only time they claim god is beyond comprehension is when they want to avoid accountability or cognitive dissonance.



So God has made it pointless to find common ground with non-believers? God discourages believers explaining or demonstrating their belief? God only accepts those who pass the test of blind faith? These seem like odd policies for someone who holds all wisdom, but I guess we can't understand his ways, even though you re claiming some very specific understanding here.



Sounds a bit like hedging your bets, but I recognize the honesty here. You are unable to find faith in mankind and see god as the alternative. I could list the reasons you should have confidence and find security in mankind, but I could make an equal list of why you shouldn't. There is reasoning behind not trusting mankind. The point though is that this does not give us a reason to believe in, much less trust in, God.

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First I just want to say much respect to you Heisenberg, I have always enjoyed your take on many things here at Riu!

I wish to try and clarify. I respect your views, but they are constricted, in many complex and difficult ways. I know you as a typically humble and conservative person, as much as you may argue right, it would be nice to see you move more neutral in this subject. That is typically where you are, but in these godly debates it seems bias in view.

"Those Religions"--- Well, its not the Religion doing it, its the CHURCH(s) doing it. Two different things and for that I must say that is where it starts to get twisted. What the Church or Religion does, is SEPARATE from the believer in God. We believe in a GOD first. The Church and its Religion are optional . In my PERSONAL opinion, I see church's as an instrument of mankinds now. It was divine at one point, but mankind has polluted it and spread it out. It's a instrument of confusion for followers and a haven for others. However, Church and Religion are NOT for everyone, BUT ( in my opinion) God is !

" So God has made it pointless to find....God only accepts those who pass the test of blind faith" .....Again, God Chooses YOU, and he also gives YOU free WILL when he does choose you. Its up to you to reject this gift or accept it and have faith in him. Its by HIS GRACE that we are "saved" NOT by FAITH...regardless of kind. Its not the acts or deeds that gets you in, but absolute faith...without question...yes....absolute authority...God is Almighty !

God's Policy will never make sense to us in this transit life . Why WOULD IT? Why would we have God all figured out and have all the answers if HES GOD It's not meant to be that way. We can't make nor create reason of out HIS logic.

"Sounds a bit like hedging...." You do recognize the honesty, but I assure you, my reasons to believe in Jesus is not funded solely on my inability to find faith in mankind....really society or civilization. I have faith in a believer of Christ if that helps ya. My point is I am a man of GOD and a Man of REASON, those REASONS i believe in God run very very deep...deep as my DNA can go, and as long as I have been alive...I don't trust Jesus because of conclusion I make in life, I have spent my entire life in a relationship with god. Just like marriage, you don't go into with or for one reason ... Having Faith in a God is having a relationship with God. An relationship that is for eternity. Its not gonna be explained or summed up by four or five reasons mate

In conclusion, I will rest this here. I have no intent to make this into a debate. I am a horrible debater, especially when its on the dime kind of stuff. I want to say that I don't blame you for questioning this, that , god, or the other. I think every path and walk of life is different. I have spent a good portion of my life aligned to God, I was born into it, but allowed an opportunity to still find myself in this world. I am on a 2nd lease of life, and plagued with illness. God has took so many unexpected things from me in my life, just for me to learn in the long run I actually NEED God ... In the long run, it has been a gift that I learned I needed, from that I have saved myself with the grace of god from certain death. Doctor's can't explain it, but I am sure one day they will find the answers to there many questions, just like you For now, and till next time, I live my life for God and to serve his Purpose and Glory.

olylifter420 said:

I think atheists have a skewed and biased view of believers and their beliefs... When i try and have a discussion about my beliefs with atheists, they have no idea what i am talking about because it is a personal experience... and for those that say they CAN be replicated in a lab, get a life man... i have tried plenty of drugs and i love to workout both of which release dopamine... both of which have never ever REPLICATED the experience i had when i stepped into the light per se...

I am a christian and i accept evolution and enjoy the subject plenty!

what i hate on here is the skewed perception that most atheists on here have of believers which lacks plenty of logical rationale and demonstrates and small understanding of the entire world...

I always hear religion... well why do believers have to have the same dogma as religion if we ourselves do not condone what most mainstream religions are doing?


atheists do not have to say they are smarter or more intelligent, their actions say everything...

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Frustrating how the complicated these subjects can be. It can so easily go from as simple question to a argument both trying to disprove one another. 99.9% of times it goes way off subject and ends with no progress. I have learned that as a Christian its best to leave missionary and "godswork" to God. I believe he choose you, no need to spread his message. The gospel is for celebration and glorifying God in my opinion not a instrument to convert non believers. People with passions of faith(less) tend to not be able to control that passion in said times.

I can only hope you choose to free the shackles of your minds from the god delusion. Some never do, what a fearful life indeed.

They say god is love, all that is good, all knowing, all wise...except the bible also states this. Which allows me to presume even further that a man, rather than god made this idea up.

"...I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me."

So there's an ongoing perceived threat to them and their descendants unless they do fear God. One remedy for this fear is to realize that the concept of God is based on ancient myth.

Just as in ancient Greece the Greek mythology ruled peoples belief system for thousands of years just as the christian religion has this past couple thousand years. Far off into the future, christian mythology will be talked about as being a really really sadistic and uninteresting myth. Where as Greek mythology will always be known for its badass Gods and awesome stories. The christian mythology hopefully will be forgotten in the sands of time.

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.


EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."

i would wish to IDEA that you will come to a final understanding in your life... In that you will accept people for WHO they are, not what they IDEA in... I understand what you are and have been saying on here, but i do not agree in that only you and a small few others have been able to reach your "bliss" or ultimate understanding of life which makes you a somewhat type of prophecy of whatever movement you are in, in your life.

These shackles you speak of are on you man... i see or feel no "shackles'' on my mind. On the contrary, i was able to get very good grades and maintain a very high GPA...

if you are an atheist, does that mean you get to have a 4.0 GPA all throughout college? With what has been said on here from some, seems to me that most atheists are of the highest caliber in the classroom and other similar settings in which rationale is key for success.

yea, i know

Zaehet Strife said:

I can only hope you choose to free the shackles of your minds from the god delusion. Some never do, what a fearful life indeed.

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Not really frustrating. I just think some really smart people on here have a small view of the rest of the world. I have not been doing ''godswork'', all i have been doing is standing up for what i believe in and for others who are just targeted...

MixedMelodyMindBender said:

Frustrating how the complicated these subjects can be. It can so easily go from as simple question to a argument both trying to disprove one another. 99.9% of times it goes way off subject and ends with no progress. I have learned that as a Christian its best to leave missionary and "godswork" to God. I believe he choose you, no need to spread his message. The gospel is for celebration and glorifying God in my opinion not a instrument to convert non believers. People with passions of faith(less) tend to not be able to control that passion in said times.

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The understanding that beliefs are merely thoughts/ideas that we give truth to, is quite the opposite of bliss. I was much happier when i was pretending to know things i didnt, life was so much easier when i had faith in a god. As i became more and more honest with myself, i became aware of exactly what i was doing. I was trying to give myself truth, where there was no truth... it was me pretending to know the truth because i was afraid of not knowing. As i became more and more honest with myself, the more i had to have faith in myself. The more responsable i felt for my decisions, for who i am, and who i want to be. As a result, the more comfortable i became with not knowing.

When you wake up to the realization that beliefs are ideas, and that nothing in life or even after death is for certain... it does not bring bliss, it does not bring happiness... but it does bring a certain sense of freedom, a certain sense of peace, and a certain sense of responsibility. But most importantly, it gives you honesty within yourself.

do you think life is all about finding spiritual peace or comfort?

Do you think your endeavors apply to every other aspect of life or to other peoples lives?

It seems to me, you grew up with a golden spoon in hand and had nothing to fend cause most was done for you... these things you speak of, "the more responsible i felt for my decisions, for who i am, and who want to be" i had to do growing up very early on in life... life's struggles is what makes you, not fear in not knowing...

I finally get why some atheists on here do not respond to things you say...

Zaehet Strife said:

The understanding that beliefs are merely thoughts/ideas that we give truth to, is quite the opposite of bliss. I was much happier when i was pretending to know things i didnt, life was so much easier when i had faith in a god. As i became more and more honest with myself, i became aware of exactly what i was doing. I was trying to give myself truth, where there was no truth... it was me pretending to know the truth because i was afraid of not knowing. As i became more and more honest with myself, the more i had to have faith in myself. The more responsable i felt for my decisions, for who i am, and who i want to be.

When you wake up to the realization that beliefs are ideas, and that nothing in life or even after death is for certain... it does not bring bliss, it does not bring happiness... but it does bring a certain sense of freedom, and a certain sense of peace. But most importantly, it gives you honesty within yourself.

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To me, life is about helping people. Physically and mentally. That's what brings me the most joy.

you see, we do have some common ground

Zaehet Strife said:

To me, life is about helping people. Physically and mentally. That's what brings me the most joy.

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Jar Man said:

Ree- hee- hee heely! Where to begin on this? Well let's just say I'm a former devout atheist who had a profound spiritual experience ("rebirth") alone in my own home in Sep-Nov, 1999. It wasn't, "Jesus" or anything quite like some may imagine at all. Oh, there's most certainly a God Almighty alright! But admittedly it doesn't really follow specifically the miraculous hokus-pokus nonsense in the Bible either. It's a thinking man's thing that jives with what an atheist likes- hard pan manifest reality: "Jehovah" in Hebrew means, "Behold, I am, that I am all that you now and ever shall- Behold!" a.k.a., "Youz' already been standin' there lookin' at IT all your life anyway!" IT's all that is our perceptible reality on the most scientific level. Or, "The Absolute Whole Truth And Nothing But Whatsoever!" The whole matter points to the exact same conclusion for everyone and none can deny IT! There's no specific religion about the deeper truths everywhere. Religion amounts to the first heaven that will pass away due to being Romper Room grade spirituality that's conflicting and incomplete. The bottom line is that in all that encompasses the hostile and otherwise lifeless emptiness the known Universe there's positively no way humanity could evolve to exist as it does today from space dust, plasma clouds and starlight unless there is indeed a birthless and deathless Supreme All-Wise Intelligent Creator running the whole show. Sure, IT's far more fantastic, overwhelmingly mind blowing and exalted beyond anything the Bible attempts to paint. All I know is I had the equivalent of a psychological Supernova of realization as a result of my experence that took several years to functionally adjust to, and is an ongoing process where I never arrive anyway. Far more that time and space won't permit to elaborate on here and now, but the fact remains irrefutable beyond any doubt.

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Sounds like a good acid trip!

...real religion, to me, brings a 'comforter' and is not always comforting. I've learned that it's about 'conscious suffering', which means being true to yourself. It means not ignoring the 'bad' parts of ourselves, and actually living with them. This is done until such a time when one can say with a little more understanding "be still and know that I AM your God." You are God over your thoughts - you are not your thoughts.

Eye, I imagine most devoutly religious folks would not agree with you. In fact I got a strong mental image from your post ... Simpsons opening credits. Churchgoers are the band kids obediently minding the scores ... and you're like Lisa, improvising. I think it's cool ... but ...
cn

...thanks?



...few have agreed with me to this point in life, might as well bat 1000 <----numerical pun surely intended.

[video=youtube;dx_lIv5SkHM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx_lIv5SkHM&amp;feature=related[/video]

Zaehet Strife said:

I can only hope you choose to free the shackles of your minds from the god delusion. Some never do, what a fearful life indeed.

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Who's living in fear? You? Im not...soooo....why "hope" for me to be "free".....glad to see you think for yourself but thats rather shallow thinking

@Zaehet--Your opinions I will respect under the condition they don't become an instrument to down or dog those with faith. You give a impression that you are on some higher level that believers will never be on because they are a slave to God. Mind you...ITS A CHOICE to be a Slave for eternity to God.

I believe God is the King of Kings, I serve his will and for his Glory. That sounds really free to me, considering the alternative of hell. Just like you make it sound like your "sorry" for us, well I am sorry you don't put matters such as your inevitable death in the hands of someone greater than yourself.

Eph 2:8 " For it is by grace, you have been saved, through faith, and this is NOT of YOURSELF, it is the GIFT of GOD"

Jesus came here to SUFFER...I would imagine we will do no different here in this transit life! How we RESPOND to SUFFERING and LOSS is important to me. It has a reason and a purpose, just like every thing under the sun. Has a point, and a purpose....and I assure you, both minute and grande things of purpose, in the known universe, are not created spontaniously

Zaehet Strife said:

They say god is love, all that is good, all knowing, all wise...except the bible also states this. Which allows me to presume even further that a man, rather than god made this idea up.

"...I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me."

So there's an ongoing perceived threat to them and their descendants unless they do fear God. One remedy for this fear is to realize that the concept of God is based on ancient myth.

Just as in ancient Greece the Greek mythology ruled peoples belief system for thousands of years just as the christian religion has this past couple thousand years. Far off into the future, christian mythology will be talked about as being a really really sadistic and uninteresting myth. Where as Greek mythology will always be known for its badass Gods and awesome stories. The christian mythology hopefully will be forgotten in the sands of time.

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So you have more faith in man than in God? And you feel sorry for me? Wow lol...Get real m8! I don't believe mankinds civilization has any hope, we are after all, even when socialized, rather small, ignorant, and hopeless. Ever heard of the idea of NEEDING a god? You are filling a void with what you can grasp from the likes of mankind instead of putting the doubt and question in the hands of a God. Why is it mere humans always question the notion of a God? Well Jesus said most will for all times, but most are not being risen from the dead.

Finding, Having, and KEEPING the gift of faith is more of a struggle than any non-believer could ever understand or credit. They make it sound like an easy relationship. God is not easy. He will not come to you and choose you if you think he's going to make your life easy and full of all the sense you have ever questioned. He's God, not You

I use to believe in religion and god.I was brought up in a southern baptist family,After years of going to church i started realizing that what was being taught and preached was a delusion.I didnt care to be apart of it anymore,as much as i Loved my family who had continuing belief and wondered why i stopped going and reading,I had questions that were given answers that were not satisfying my reasoning.You can believe in something to the point that it causes hallucinations and Subjective psychosematic response.I believed to the point that i thought i would be punished for not believing and somehow God knew my thoughts always,the belief structure was like shackles on my mind,i couldnt think a certain way or i go to hell,It took a long time to overcome this delusion in me,But i can say without a doubt ,not believing has been the best choice and i am happier without this God.(Mind you i am only sharing my experience with belief and am not attempting to sway or overshadow anyones beliefs)Believe if you will, I simply do not and nor will I again.