Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Should the USA along with NATO defend Ukraine with troops.

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 40.4%

  • No

    Votes: 59 59.6%
  • Total voters
    99
Rob Roy

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
mooray said:
Your selective quoting is precious and I know you pay taxes. One way or another, you pay some form as taxation.

If rape is bad, then a person doing the raping is doing something bad and that same person preventing another rape is a good thing. I don't know why it's confusing, unless of course you were into rape, then doing nothing means you can keep raping and also don't have to prevent rape. It's a great way for there to be two bads, instead of one bad and one good, again assuming you were into rape.
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The only philosophy that promotes the good - good (win win) is one where mutual consent is the standard means.

voluntaryist.com

The Voluntaryist -

The Voluntaryist was founded and run for almost 40 years by Carl Watner. Learn more about the philosophy of peace; voluntaryism.
voluntaryist.com voluntaryist.com

Yes, of course I pay some taxes, I buy gasoline etc. Working on getting a veggie oil diesel set up going in some kind of vehicle though. ;)
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
install the leader of Ukraine as the president of russia, and allow them free and fair elections, with no candidates getting poisoned, or locked up...clean up the russian mafia, shut down the oligarchs...
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Sort of like an eye for eye? Install a TV personality as the president of Russia?

Shut down the oligarchs? I'm guessing you're not aware most of Ukraine's GDP is from the majority of businesses that are owned by a small group of oligarchs. Ukraine is corrupt af. In a way Russia is doing Ukraine a favor by allowing Ukraine to be like Russia and still be the good guys in the eyes of the west. People/media talk as if Putin is attacking "Europe", while Moscow is Europe's largest city in terms of population. Zelensky was supposed to drain the swamp. We know what that means. Fair elections? He even has his own Ruport (Kolomoisky).

Russian mafia? I'm guessing you're not aware of the Ukrainian mafia who terrorize Europe with their complete lack of morals. Everything you think you know about Russian mafia is a great way to describe the Ukrainian.

Ransomware attacks are a major issue here, attacks coming from the Ukraine, and not by Russians in the Ukraine, by Ukrainians.

So to answer the thread title, probably yes they should, just not their own.
 
M

mooray

Well-Known Member
Rob Roy said:
The only philosophy that promotes the good - good (win win) is one where mutual consent is the standard means.

voluntaryist.com

The Voluntaryist -

The Voluntaryist was founded and run for almost 40 years by Carl Watner. Learn more about the philosophy of peace; voluntaryism.
voluntaryist.com voluntaryist.com

Yes, of course I pay some taxes, I buy gasoline etc. Working on getting a veggie oil diesel set up going in some kind of vehicle though. ;)
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Okay, but life is more complex. If you have the ability to help someone else that's being abused by an oppressor, and choose not to because you're not perfect yourself, then how exactly is it better to stay at home instead of help? I'd say that your philosophies of not messing with people people minding their own business, is bullshit if you do nothing to help people being abused that are minding their own business. That's apathy and apathy won't help you when it's your turn being oppressed. Quite the opposite.

Of course you pay taxes. Everybody knows it. It's great for you to reduce your hypocrisy by using veggie oil, but if you still think you're a good person, then it should be very clear how it's still a good thing to help someone, even if you're imperfect yourself.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Sort of like an eye for eye? Install a TV personality as the president of Russia?

Shut down the oligarchs? I'm guessing you're not aware most of Ukraine's GDP is from the majority of businesses that are owned by a small group of oligarchs. Ukraine is corrupt af. In a way Russia is doing Ukraine a favor by allowing Ukraine to be like Russia and still be the good guys in the eyes of the west. People/media talk as if Putin is attacking "Europe", while Moscow is Europe's largest city in terms of population. Zelensky was supposed to drain the swamp. We know what that means. Fair elections? He even has his own Ruport (Kolomoisky).

Russian mafia? I'm guessing you're not aware of the Ukrainian mafia who terrorize Europe with their complete lack of morals. Everything you think you know about Russian mafia is a great way to describe the Ukrainian.

Ransomware attacks are a major issue here, attacks coming from the Ukraine, and not by Russians in the Ukraine, by Ukrainians.

So to answer the thread title, probably yes they should, just not their own.
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We are naive on this subject.

As Russia tensions boil, US farmer remains jailed in Ukraine
apnews.com

As Russia tensions boil, US farmer remains jailed in Ukraine

An American farmer is jailed in Ukraine on charges he attempted to assassinate a former business partner who is now a government minister.
apnews.com apnews.com

WASHINGTON (AP) — When Kurt Groszhans set out from North Dakota for Ukraine in 2017, he was eager to connect with his family’s ancestral homeland and to farm the rich, black soil for which the country is known.

But his farming venture with a law professor who’s now a high-ranking Ukrainian government official soon collapsed in acrimony and accusations, culminating in his arrest last November on charges of plotting to assassinate his former business partner.

Groszhans, a 50-year-old farmer from Ashley, North Dakota, decided in 2017 to move to Ukraine, where his ancestors are from. The chance to work the country’s coveted black earth was a “dream come true,” and he invested a large sum to get a farming operation up and running, his sister said. In a country with a prized agricultural sector, Groszhans was proud of his work, she said, sending pictures of his crops to his family.

Once there, he connected with a law professor, Roman Leshchenko, who offered himself up as a native speaker with knowledge of the local farming business and regulatory requirements. Grozhans named him the director of his company.

Things fell apart quickly.

Groszhans has alleged in a lawsuit and in an internet post that Leshchenko began embezzling money from him, defrauding him of over $250,000 in total and transferring funds to a family company. Groszhans has been vocal about his allegations, describing himself in a Medium post in August as a “humble” but deceived investor.

“Probably, I am not the first or the last American investor who made a mistake in the person hired as a manager. But the personality of this manager makes my case unique,” he wrote.

Leshchenko declined to comment to the AP, but has denied the embezzlement claims in interviews with the Ukrainian media and has insisted that the men had agreed that Leshchenko’s company would run the farming business.

He’s leveled his own accusations against Groszhans, alleging that the American farmer planted genetically modified soybean that is banned from cultivation and sales in Ukraine and it was that discovery that prompted Leshchenko to resign from the company and was the source of their dispute.

“The circumstances of this criminal proceedings must be verified as part of the pre-trial investigation conducted by the National Police and only on the basis of the results of which, after the relevant facts and their evidence have been clarified and established, the prosecutor’s office can make appropriate procedural decisions,” Tetyana Kozachenko, a lawyer for Leshchenko, told The Associated Press.

Ukrainian media that began looking into the conflict reported that Leshchenko had used some of the funds for a roughly $60,000 contribution to the 2019 campaign of current Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who later named Leshchenko the government’s minister of agrarian policy and food.

A babe in the woods.
 
BudmanTX

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
"The Kremlin wants what it says: an end to NATO expansion, a rollback of previous expansion, a removal of American nuclear weapons from Europe, and a Russian sphere of influence. However, Putin may accept less. The Kremlin’s primary goal is a guarantee that Belarus, Ukraine, and Georgia will never belong to a military or economic bloc other than the ones Moscow controls and that Russia will be the ultimate arbitrator of the foreign and security policy of all three states. In essence, this conflict is about whether 30 years after the demise of the Soviet Union, its former ethnic republics can live as independent, sovereign states or if they still must acknowledge Moscow as their de facto sovereign. "


well i hate to tell puting, that second one is prolly not gonna happen, and the third.........trying to bring the iron curtain are ya.....and he's gonna have a really hard time with those other countries especially Belarus.....


got that from here:
www.csis.org

Russia’s Possible Invasion of Ukraine

If peace talks fail, the Russian military has several options to invade Ukraine through northern, central, and southern routes, raising critical questions for the United States and its NATO allies according to analysis by the CSIS International Security Program.
www.csis.org www.csis.org
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
GrassBurner said:
Looks like humans hit that area around 30,000 years ago, so 30,001? :lol:
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An elderly co-worker who had once been a research scientist in USSR described the lot of his father, who ran a bar when he was a kid. He said the stress due to demands for money by government and political officers turned his father into an abusive, drunken monster.
 
GrassBurner

GrassBurner

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
An elderly co-worker who had once been a research scientist in USSR described the lot of his father, who ran a bar when he was a kid. He said the stress due to demands for money by government and political officers turned his father into an abusive, drunken monster.
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I can only imagine the stress that would put on a person. Raising a family and owning a business here is stressful and difficult, imagine if the govt was robbing and threatening you on top of that :( I feel for the regular people caught up in this. But we've learned time and time again, foreign bombs and money can't fix a country.
 
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
An elderly co-worker described the lot of his father, who ran a bar when he was a kid. He said the stress due to demands for money by government and political officers turned his father into an abusive, drunken monster.
Click to expand...
To be fair anyone who runs a bar anywhere has that problem and that fate is very normal for bar owners
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
BudmanTX said:
"The Kremlin wants what it says: an end to NATO expansion, a rollback of previous expansion, a removal of American nuclear weapons from Europe, and a Russian sphere of influence. However, Putin may accept less. The Kremlin’s primary goal is a guarantee that Belarus, Ukraine, and Georgia will never belong to a military or economic bloc other than the ones Moscow controls and that Russia will be the ultimate arbitrator of the foreign and security policy of all three states. In essence, this conflict is about whether 30 years after the demise of the Soviet Union, its former ethnic republics can live as independent, sovereign states or if they still must acknowledge Moscow as their de facto sovereign. "


well i hate to tell puting, that second one is prolly not gonna happen, and the third.........trying to bring the iron curtain are ya.....and he's gonna have a really hard time with those other countries especially Belarus.....


got that from here:
www.csis.org

Russia’s Possible Invasion of Ukraine

If peace talks fail, the Russian military has several options to invade Ukraine through northern, central, and southern routes, raising critical questions for the United States and its NATO allies according to analysis by the CSIS International Security Program.
www.csis.org www.csis.org
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Did somebody say Belarus? Their government are already part of Putin's gang.

Fears of Ukraine invasion rise as top Russian commanders fly to Belarus for massive joint military drill



Good article. I don't think any of the six options he presented are likely but he's the expert, I guess.

To me, if option two were modified from:
"Send conventional Russian troops into the breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk as unilateral “peacekeepers”",
to: "Send a limited number of covert Russian troops into the breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk to coordinate covert arms shipments and provide Russian intelligence support"

In other words, escalate what Russia is already doing in the breakaway regions. Putin is wrecking Ukraine because the country won't surrender to him.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
GrassBurner said:
I can only imagine the stress that would put on a person. Raising a family and owning a business here is stressful and difficult, imagine if the govt was robbing and threatening you on top of that :( I feel for the regular people caught up in this. But we've learned time and time again, foreign bombs and money can't fix a country.
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25% of the population of the USSR did time in Siberian camps. Imagine how that affects the psyche of the region. Not to mention Holodomor.

Effects of trauma on that scale persists through generations.

The people of the US has no idea what going to war with Ukraine against Russia would be like or how it would end. Probably massive theft of military armaments. Not that that isn't happening already.
 
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BudmanTX

BudmanTX

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
Did somebody say Belarus? Their government are already part of Putin's gang.

Fears of Ukraine invasion rise as top Russian commanders fly to Belarus for massive joint military drill



Good article. I don't think any of the six options he presented are likely but he's the expert, I guess.

To me, if option two were modified from:
"Send conventional Russian troops into the breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk as unilateral “peacekeepers”",
to: "Send a limited number of covert Russian troops into the breakaway regions into the breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk to coordinate covert arms shipments and provide Russian intelligence support"

In other words, escalate what Russia is already doing in the breakaway regions. Putin is wrecking Ukraine because the country won't surrender to him.
Click to expand...
you can thank Victor Lukashenko for this, 6 term president, which he even reconized by no one, other than he butt buddy Putin. His re-election in 2020 started a mass protest all across that nation, imo i think something gonna happen later on with that country, but for the time being Belarus is Russia's bitch.....joint military drills.......with S-400's, and iskander rocket launcher.....wait what???
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
Sort of like an eye for eye? Install a TV personality as the president of Russia?

Shut down the oligarchs? I'm guessing you're not aware most of Ukraine's GDP is from the majority of businesses that are owned by a small group of oligarchs. Ukraine is corrupt af. In a way Russia is doing Ukraine a favor by allowing Ukraine to be like Russia and still be the good guys in the eyes of the west. People/media talk as if Putin is attacking "Europe", while Moscow is Europe's largest city in terms of population. Zelensky was supposed to drain the swamp. We know what that means. Fair elections? He even has his own Ruport (Kolomoisky).

Russian mafia? I'm guessing you're not aware of the Ukrainian mafia who terrorize Europe with their complete lack of morals. Everything you think you know about Russian mafia is a great way to describe the Ukrainian.

Ransomware attacks are a major issue here, attacks coming from the Ukraine, and not by Russians in the Ukraine, by Ukrainians.

So to answer the thread title, probably yes they should, just not their own.
Click to expand...
the leader of the Ukraine is a television personality?...wasn't aware of that.
i wasn't aware that wealthy thieves ran russia....well, that's not true, that's exactly who runs russia, from behind a puppet dictator who has installed himself in office until he decides to retire with his stolen billions.
russia is doing Ukraine a favor by threatening to invade them and depose their lawfully elected government? doesn't seem like much of a favor to me.
none of the rest of what you said is anything i've read, or heard...and i read many European news sources...not saying i am personally familiar with the situation, but news sources outside America do not confirm what you're telling me
 
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