Should the US shed blood for Ukraine

Rob Roy said:

The only philosophy that promotes the good - good (win win) is one where mutual consent is the standard means.

The Voluntaryist -

The Voluntaryist was founded and run for almost 40 years by Carl Watner. Learn more about the philosophy of peace; voluntaryism.

voluntaryist.com

Yes, of course I pay some taxes, I buy gasoline etc. Working on getting a veggie oil diesel set up going in some kind of vehicle though.

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So @Rob Roy, you agree with that gentleman?

You really think a Society can flourish/succeed using that ideology, which is basically everyman for himself.

" Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society.
We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy."



We accept gold, silver,
bitcoin, FRNs, and Paypal.
No checks, please
Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.

Doesn't want an electoral or political system actually & no taxes or restrictions.
But just send me some gold, bitcoin,, FRN'S, PayPal, basically anything you got, just send the moola.
Oh, a conundrum!!!!
I don't want any government involvement in my life, but I sure as shit will accept/use that nasty governments money.
Fucking Libertarians are a deluded cult that has pie in the sky ambitions.
They must be frustrated as fuck living in a society that helps each other and contributes to the wellbeing of its citizens.
Libertarians are anti-social freaks that should all chip in and buy an island and move there & create a utopia with no government or laws.
I'd love to see how that works out.
And here's a representative of their philosophy, right?
Say's a lot

Fogdog said:

Sativied is closer to the truth about Ukraine than you are. Russia is headed by a gangster president and a mob of gangster oligarchs control it. It's nothing but a large kleptocracy. There are two states. The one everybody sees where rule of law is enforced but with exceptions. And the prerogative state that decides when to make exceptions to the law. Not that this should be news. That kind of double standard has been going on for at least a thousand years. It's just that the scale of corruption is so large that it affects people all over the world. It even affects housing costs in US cities.

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you just said i was wrong, or at least not as right...and then you gave examples of how russia is exactly what i said it was?

CunningCanuk said:

Will you guys take Canadian money?

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yeah, but no quarters, they clog up the coke machines

Rob Roy said:

The people who want a war should be the first to personally go to war.

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Yeah unfortunately Putin isn't going to be on the front lines though.

Plenty of American boys signed up to go kill Iraqis because 9/11

Roger A. Shrubber said:

the leader of the Ukraine is a television personality?...wasn't aware of that.
i wasn't aware that wealthy thieves ran russia....well, that's not true, that's exactly who runs russia, from behind a puppet dictator who has installed himself in office until he decides to retire with his stolen billions.
russia is doing Ukraine a favor by threatening to invade them and depose their lawfully elected government? doesn't seem like much of a favor to me.
none of the rest of what you said is anything i've read, or heard...and i read many European news sources...not saying i am personally familiar with the situation, but news sources outside America do not confirm what you're telling me

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Having read something in news sources is already not a great way to support a view or argument, but not having read something?

"russia is doing Ukraine a favor by threatening to invade them and depose their lawfully elected government?"
That's nothing like what I said. I.e. a strawman. There's no implication from me in there that it's Russia who's the good guy... or that Russia has any right to invade.

"i wasn't aware that wealthy thieves ran russia."
I didn't say you were or weren't? I was talking about Ukraine. Your description of who runs Russia isn't as different from the Ukraine as you might believe. Which makes your suggestion to make Ukraine's leader president of Russia to battle oligarchs a little, uhmm, funny.

As for whatever 'the rest' means and your interpretation, what exactly was so controversial?

Was it Ukraine being corrupt af? It's a national sport. Do not leave your money in the hotel safe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

Was it Ukraine being run by oligarchs?

"In total, the top 100 wealthiest business people in Ukraine control around $44,5 billion, according to Forbes, which accounts for 27% of Ukrainian GDP in September, 2021."
That's the money they already have, if you include the gdp of the businesses they indirectly own and control, the oligarchs are responsible for 3/4th of gdp. That translates to a lot of power even in the least corrupt countries. In Ukraine that makes you the ultimate boss.

Was it the comment about having his own Ruport? Kolomoisky
"President Volodymyr Zelensky and his close associates may have been involved in the transfer of $40 million from structures linked to oligarch Igor Kolomoisky. Pandora Papers, a new source of 14 companies that registered and serviced offshore companies, partially confirmed the scheme of transferring funds from the structures of oligarch Igor Kolomoisky to offshore companies of Vladimir Zelensky and his associates."
Regardless of the details, we all know why people like that have offshore companies.

"Kolomoisky’s media outlet also provides security and logistical backup for the comedian’s campaign, and it has recently emerged that Zelenskiy’s legal counsel,...."

"Hints of the president’s continued personal connections to the oligarch were highlighted again in February 2021 when Zelenskyy breached Covid lockdown restrictions to celebrate his birthday at a private party hosted at the home of Kolomoisky associate Timur Mindich."

"In April 2019 it was reported that the FBI is investigating Ukrainian oligarch Kolomoisky over alleged financial crimes"

Wealthy thieves run the Ukraine too.

Or was it Ukrainians being a pain in the ass, aka a cyber threat, on the internet, very similar to Russians? Look for security logs from any major web server... check europol... The Ukrainian gangs/organized crime? Not my best example. Lots of other east european gangs doing robberies Russian style, too.

Or was it Moscow being a city in Europe?

TLDR:

All I'm saying it's not a great idea Ukrainians fix Russia. Not like they have a good thing going themselves, not like Zelensky really changing that even though he ran on it. Not a Trump, but a populist nonetheless.

Sativied said:

Having read something in news sources is already not a great way to support a view or argument, but not having read something?

"russia is doing Ukraine a favor by threatening to invade them and depose their lawfully elected government?"
That's nothing like what I said. I.e. a strawman. There's no implication from me in there that it's Russia who's the good guy... or that Russia has any right to invade.

"i wasn't aware that wealthy thieves ran russia."
I didn't say you were or weren't? I was talking about Ukraine. Your description of who runs Russia isn't as different from the Ukraine as you might believe. Which makes your suggestion to make Ukraine's leader president of Russia to battle oligarchs a little, uhmm, funny.

As for whatever 'the rest' means and your interpretation, what exactly was so controversial?

Was it Ukraine being corrupt af? It's a national sport. Do not leave your money in the hotel safe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

Was it Ukraine being run by oligarchs?

Ukrainian oligarchs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In total, the top 100 wealthiest business people in Ukraine control around $44,5 billion, according to Forbes, which accounts for 27% of Ukrainian GDP in September, 2021."
That's the money they already have, if you include the gdp of the businesses they indirectly own and control, the oligarchs are responsible for 3/4th of gdp. That translates to a lot of power even in the least corrupt countries. In Ukraine that makes you the ultimate boss.

Was it the comment about having his own Ruport? Kolomoisky
"President Volodymyr Zelensky and his close associates may have been involved in the transfer of $40 million from structures linked to oligarch Igor Kolomoisky. Pandora Papers, a new source of 14 companies that registered and serviced offshore companies, partially confirmed the scheme of transferring funds from the structures of oligarch Igor Kolomoisky to offshore companies of Vladimir Zelensky and his associates."
Regardless of the details, we all know why people like that have offshore companies.

"Kolomoisky’s media outlet also provides security and logistical backup for the comedian’s campaign, and it has recently emerged that Zelenskiy’s legal counsel,...."

"Hints of the president’s continued personal connections to the oligarch were highlighted again in February 2021 when Zelenskyy breached Covid lockdown restrictions to celebrate his birthday at a private party hosted at the home of Kolomoisky associate Timur Mindich."

"In April 2019 it was reported that the FBI is investigating Ukrainian oligarch Kolomoisky over alleged financial crimes"

Wealthy thieves run the Ukraine too.

Or was it Ukrainians being a pain in the ass, aka a cyber threat, on the internet, very similar to Russians? Look for security logs from any major web server... check europol... The Ukrainian gangs/organized crime? Not my best example. Lots of other east european gangs doing robberies Russian style, too.

Or was it Moscow being a city in Europe?

TLDR:

All I'm saying it's not a great idea Ukrainians fix Russia. Not like they have a good thing going themselves, not like Zelensky really changing that even though he ran on it. Not a Trump, but a populist nonetheless.

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i'll be perfectly honest with you, i don't give a fuck who they put in charge of russia, as long as it isn't putin...if the president of Ukraine is a crook, too, then pick someone who isn't...i couldn't give a shit less who. i'm not in favor of saving Ukraine, i'm in favor of destroying putin, and anyone who worked with him against the U.S. . if the entire government of Ukraine is as corrupt as the government of russia, then replace both of them....
russia has already started a war as far as i'm concerned, an online war, and i'm ok with ending it with a feet on the ground war

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i don't give a fuck who they put in charge of russia, as long as it isn't putin...

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And Putin knows it's like that now.

Putin doesn't have to worry about elections, they're not fair and he can simply kill off opponents and make protesters disappear. It's not the masses at home he's trying to swing or impress this time, it's the parts of the world where Russia wants control or at least no control by the US. It's all about trying to undermine the image and influence of the US. Same motive for supporting Trump, same motive for supporting dictators about to be removed by 'democracy'. Putin knows he/Russia would be next eventually.

I don't think he got what he wanted, I think he heavily misjudged the relationship between US and Europe, well west europe, eu, w/e, and Putin showed he's not a brilliant strategist.

But then came Macron. That little king dude from Shrek. Desperate to be on the world stage. Macron wants a European army. He wants France, with other EU members as sidekicks, to fill the void of leader of the free world Trump created. He's a delusional bullshitter. But he does provide a road for Putin to walk out with minimal damage and at the same time achieve the above. If all else fails, Putin may just make agreements with Macron just to exclude the US/Biden from the table.

Sativied said:

And Putin knows it's like that now.

Putin doesn't have to worry about elections, they're not fair and he can simply kill off opponents and make protesters disappear. It's not the masses at home he's trying to swing or impress this time, it's the parts of the world where Russia wants control or at least no control by the US. It's all about trying to undermine the image and influence of the US. Same motive for supporting Trump, same motive for supporting dictators about to be removed by 'democracy'. Putin knows he/Russia would be next eventually.

I don't think he got what he wanted, I think he heavily misjudged the relationship between US and Europe, well west europe, eu, w/e, and Putin showed he's not a brilliant strategist.

But then came Macron. That little king dude from Shrek. Desperate to be on the world stage. Macron wants a European army. He wants France, with other EU members as sidekicks, to fill the void of leader of the free world Trump created. He's a delusional bullshitter. But he does provide a road for Putin to walk out with minimal damage and at the same time achieve the above. If all else fails, Putin may just make agreements with Macron just to exclude the US/Biden from the table.

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good assessment, i wasn't aware of the depths of macrons involvement, or the depths of his ambitions...as long as the agreement keeps putin on his side of the border, then this becomes a non issue to me, and i could care less if Biden or macron makes the deal. i would still like to stop russia's cyber attacks around the entire world, and in America specifically, but that's an entirely separate issue from this, and requires a very different solution

Roger A. Shrubber said:

you just said i was wrong, or at least not as right...and then you gave examples of how russia is exactly what i said it was?

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If that's what you said, I missed it. I won't go back right now, but will re-read and try to figure out where I went wrong. apologies if I stepped on your toes. But you wear steel toes, don't you?

Fogdog said:

If that's what you said, I missed it. I won't go back right now, but will re-read and try to figure out where I went wrong. apologies if I stepped on your toes. But you wear steel toes, don't you?

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i do wear steel toes,(in the daytime, at night i wear crocs ) and it's entirely possible i misunderstood something...sometimes i'm going between 5 or 6 threads at one time, and i think my brain is only rated for 3...

8/9 it's unbelievable how many war-mongers have found residence in a >>weed<< forum

Kassiopeija said:

8/9 it's unbelievable how many war-mongers have found residence in a >>weed<< forum

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it takes all kinds....or at least, there ARE all kinds...the trick is learning to get along with each other

K81.UK said:

Great response.

Which bit was wrong?

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That line about how it's the US's fault.

Putin is demanding we end any alliance with Ukraine or he'll tear that country apart. Then clowns show up to tell us it will be our fault if he does. Russian/Putin are saying the same thing. It's like siding with a rapist or wife beater because "she made him do it"

Fuck that shit. Any country under Putin's thumb gets a horrible and murderous dicktator installed and rapacious oligarchs fuck the population until they bleed. re: Kazakhstan, Belarus, Kyrgyzstan and all the other countries that Putin's Russia has hegemony over. Ukraine is a divided country and parts of eastern Ukraine think their lives will be better under Russian domination. The vast majority know better and want no part of it.

Democracy is a better system than autocracy. The vast majority of Ukraine want that too.

also, lol at your line, "Coupled with NATO missile systems on Russian borders I understand their concern."

The NATO Aegis Ashore site is in Deveselu, Romania, not "on Russian borders".

Then again, so what if it was? Ukraine is a soveriegn nation and entitled to make whatever alliances it wants. Russia's hard nosed tactics are the problem, not Ukraine's desire for defense from rape.

So, yeah,

ha ha

good one

Kassiopeija said:

8/9 it's unbelievable how many war-mongers have found residence in a >>weed<< forum

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how many war mongers? I haven't seen a single post advocating for war or invasion. Plenty are over-reacting to the fear mongering going on in the media. But stoking fear was Putin's intent with all this. Biden is not exactly damping it down either.

What's your point again?

smokinrav said:

The sooner Northern Europe cuts the IV of natural gas from Russia, the better. That would really hurt Putin

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It would also cause hurt elsewhere though. If the natural gas import from Russia is cut off there is a very high chance it will lead to earthquakes in the Netherlands. No I'm not that high, well I am, but it's true.

Several countries in the north of Northern Europe are actually gas exporters. A part in the north of NL (directly bordering Germany) is still experiencing earthquakes because of the gas extraction. A bit of an ongoing national trauma. Already need to reach climate goals, reduce CO2 output, so we decided to turn off the gas sooner than planned, in steps that is. Not just stop export, but also stop using it. Last year my kitchen was rebuild for a stupid amount of money just to replace the gas connection with an electrical outlet especially for cooking equip. About 10% of all homes in NL are gas-free as we call it. Will be 35% in 2030. "Are you gas free yet?" is a thing and it's not something we say after someone farts.

One of our main issues with Germany right now, main consumer of Russian gas in Europe, is that they are adding gas connections, promoting it as a green alternative to oil boilers. Germany pays people to switch to natural gas, while people here just a mile across the border are forced to rebuild their homes to get rid of gas, replace it with heat pumps and solar boilers. The gas rates in NL are so high this year, the government is handing out money to pay them the taxes cause many families can't afford it.

NL however has a contract with Germany, and our government feels obliged to reopen the pumps to provide extra gas to Germany if needed. If the supply from Russia stop or is merely reduced. While we ourselves are drastically reducing consumption to avoid more earthquakes (and damaged homes and very angry population) and reach CO2 goals. If the natural gas from Russia is cut off, it's not a matter of if, but a matter of how many earthquakes it would cause in the Netherlands.

Not that a total cut off is realistic anytime soon, that would be like no longer importing oil... Even if it would be, it's not like we're all in Scandinavia and will freeze to death. Worst case scenario, it would be a good push to use more climate-friendly alternatives. And very good for solar panel and electric heaters business. Mostly produced in China...

CunningCanuk said:

Will you guys take Canadian money?

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I asked that once and they laughed at me .

Jimdamick said:

So @Rob Roy, you agree with that gentleman?

You really think a Society can flourish/succeed using that ideology, which is basically everyman for himself.

" Voluntaryists are advocates of non-political, non-violent strategies to achieve a free society.
We reject electoral politics, in theory and in practice, as incompatible with libertarian principles. Governments must cloak their actions in an aura of moral legitimacy in order to sustain their power, and political methods invariably strengthen that legitimacy."

We accept gold, silver,
bitcoin, FRNs, and Paypal.
No checks, please
Voluntaryists seek instead to delegitimize the State through education, and we advocate withdrawal of the cooperation and tacit consent on which State power ultimately depends.

Doesn't want an electoral or political system actually & no taxes or restrictions.
But just send me some gold, bitcoin,, FRN'S, PayPal, basically anything you got, just send the moola.
Oh, a conundrum!!!!
I don't want any government involvement in my life, but I sure as shit will accept/use that nasty governments money.
Fucking Libertarians are a deluded cult that has pie in the sky ambitions.
They must be frustrated as fuck living in a society that helps each other and contributes to the wellbeing of its citizens.
Libertarians are anti-social freaks that should all chip in and buy an island and move there & create a utopia with no government or laws.
I'd love to see how that works out.
And here's a representative of their philosophy, right?
Say's a lot

View attachment 5082760

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Ummm ya that would be amazing if there was an actual libertarian island of wonderment. Why does “The lord of the flies” come to mind. I would assume Piggy would still be an outlier, you know, science, logical thinking .

Fogdog said:

If your belief is that China and Russia will cooperate to invade Ukraine, then with that untested axiom in place, yeah, together they could probably weather whatever the US and NATO alliance can do. Together, they can pretty much rampage across that tiny nation. I don't know what the Chinese government gets out of that, and so that needs explaining.

That kind of vertical alliance between two large absolutist authoritarian regimes that are also in competition with each other is not very stable. So I'm not going there with you. I hope we can agree to disagree on whether or not this is an important topic of discussion.

I do agree with you about Trump. Trump was Putin's and his oligarch's money launderer. He was always their puppet. He's not in power now, though he did manage to weaken NATO. I think Putin is testing the strength of the NATO and is finding he stepped in it. He's dangerous because he can't afford to look foolish, so, I concede there is a chance that he does something violent for the sake of appearance.

There are many other possibilities that would be bad for Ukraine. For example, with Russia's help, the separatist movement inside Ukraine manages to take control and split away from the majority of the country. Then they can join with Russia. Whatever happens, this isn't a good thing. But I don't think the majority in Ukraine want to be under Russian control. Russia isn't able to mount the kind of effort required to put them there either.

Biden, on the other hand can make good political hay out of all of this and I think that is his strategy.

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#1 If you were to tell me 10 yrs. ago that Russia and Ukraine were to engage in the level of bloodshed that is inherently possible now I'd have responded that it was a reach of epic proportions, These 2 peoples are closely interwined thru their Slavic heritage and history. #2 The West needs to sit down Putin and present him the offer of Western investment in his economy to diversify away from just weaponry and petroleum, end result improving the lives of everyday Russians and getting Russia in the West's corner away from China #3 I really hope he de-escalates,any full blown clash here will result in tremendous risks of accidental incidents between Russian air defense covering the ground forces and NATO air patrols bordering the conflict,any shootdowns will put extraordinary pressure to respond or save face for Putin or NATO

Fogdog said:

Dear President Biden, I strongly request that you remove Roger's name from the list of potential candidates for Secretary of Defense.

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I recently heard Vlad stating Russia can't match NATO's conventional war making ability, he said "Everybody knows this", then he went on to say how modern his NUKES were and that he would make sure there will be no winners. Russian military doctrine actually includes 1st use of Nukes, it's called "ESCALATE to DE-ESCALATE", so kick over the table w/the chessboard on top of it.