Taxation without representation.....seems so.

beenthere

New Member
They are paid for working while in jail.....very little, but I am not sure. Also there are purchasable items that sales tax is applied to. Parolees pay tax and cannot vote however. That is a good question. Should they pay tax on income and goods in the joint?
I don't think they should get paid for anything while incarcerated, but I do believe that once they pay their debt to society, all of their rights should be reinstated.

A question for you burger.
Why don't you think that American tax payers, say in the top 5% are not an example of taxation without representation?
 

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
I don't think they should get paid for anything while incarcerated, but I do believe that once they pay their debt to society, all of their rights should be reinstated.

A question for you burger.
Why don't you think that American tax payers, say in the top 5% are not an example of taxation without representation?
They still are able to cast a vote and participate in the democracy. In a democracy, majority rules.....having a counted vote is all that representation can be fundamentally.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I am interested in peoples thoughts mainly and not negating your assertions. The institutions exist, rights are taken, is this relationship extraordinarily unconstitutional or unfair? A solution takes a specific focused dialogue as well, right?
First of all if rights are inalienable, government can't provide them, they can only violate them, suspend them or ignore them. They fail the first test of recognizing the rights of all individuals and they fail their purported purpose of "protecting rights" on a routine basis. The reason why is simple, they are the judges of the limits of their own power. The separation of powers is myth, much like the Easter Bunny.

The solution is readily apparent, don't empower an institution that regularly violates rights. Sometimes a given good or service is provided by them, that doesn't excuse the rest of their actions though. Also, this of course doesn't mean those services are impossible to provide in other ways, it simply means "they" don't permit it. The problem with empowering this institution is you, nor your so called representative has any way to disentangle any goods and services from the plethora of bads and dis services they also ahem "offer".

As far as being unconstitutional, the constitution is no great measure of anything, and can be interpreted any way that leviathan wants to. Cough cough slavery, Draft, interstate commerce clause etc. Polishing a turd will not get the best results, but flushing it will.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
t
They still are able to cast a vote and participate in the democracy. In a democracy, majority rules.....having a counted vote is all that representation can be fundamentally.

In a democracy just like in a dictatorship, THE APPLICATION OF FORCE RULES. It matters not to the individual if he is deprived of his rights by a mob or a lone idiot does it?
 

beenthere

New Member
They still are able to cast a vote and participate in the democracy. In a democracy, majority rules.....having a counted vote is all that representation can be fundamentally.
But the US is not a democracy.
If that were true, Obamacare would never have became law, now would it?
 

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
First of all if rights are inalienable, government can't provide them, they can only violate them, suspend them or ignore them. They fail the first test of recognizing the rights if all individuals and they fail their purported purpose of "protecting rights" on a routine basis. The reason why is simple, they are the judges of the limits of their own power. The separation of powers is myth, much like the Easter Bunny.

The solution is readily apparent, don't empower an institution that regularly violates rights. Sometimes a given good or service is provided by them, that doesn't excuse the rest of their actions though. Also, this of course doesn't mean those services are impossible to provide in other ways, it simply means "they" don't permit it. The problem with empowering this institution is you, nor your so called representative has any way to disentangle any goods and services from the plethora of bads and dis services they also ahem "offer".

As far as being unconstitutional, the constitution is no great measure of anything, and can be interpreted any way that leviathan wants to. Cough cough slavery, Draft, interstate commerce clause etc. Polishing a turd will not get the best results, but flushing it will.
Ok, but in reality this is not just a flush job. You making a tyrannical picture of it does not negate actual issues that come up. I understand you do not like many parts of the system but it exists and the problems and issues are not solved by simply ranting.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Ok, but in reality this is not just a flush job. You making a tyrannical picture of it does not negate actual issues that come up. I understand you do not like many parts of the system but it exists and the problems and issues are not solved by simply ranting.
You are correct, rants are not very effective. Tell me how EMPOWERING a system that is the source of the problems solves the problems?

Also, I'm not making a tyrannical picture of anything, those things happen whether I call them out or not or whether you care to address them, they still exist and will always exist as long as the present false dichotomy exists.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
It is a place where voting is the measure of representation. We vote to elect officials who create legislation. Representative Democracy.
No voting could be the measure of who gets elected to be a representaive. Once a person is a representative, you have no power of whether they represent anything you like. More than likely the people that paid for their advertising get the goods and you get the bill.

It's sort of liking sitting on Santa's knee at the mall, except THESE Santa's don't have magical elves that make your coveted x-mas b.b. gun, they steal the money from the kid next door and use the gun on you, if not today, tomorrow when the election tide goes out and a new batch of dickwads comes in.
 

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
You are correct, rants are not very effective. Tell me how EMPOWERING a system that is the source of the problems solves the problems?

Also, I'm not making a tyrannical picture of anything, those things happen whether I call them out or not or whether you care to address them, they still exist and will always exist as long as the present false dichotomy exists.
I am asking about one issue, that is not empowering. You presume that issue-based curiosity is blind support and make a major leap that is unfair. I talk about the way it is and ask specific questions and you have addressed your opinions, tangents, and systematic targets.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
I am asking about one issue, that is not empowering. You presume that issue-based curiosity is blind support and make a major leap that is unfair. I talk about the way it is and ask specific questions and you have addressed your opinions, tangents, and systematic targets.
Okay. Yet your one issue does not occur as a single happening, it is a symptom and a result of a greater issue.

I don't know that which you support, but I have inferred that you support a government that can talk out of both sides of its mouth at the side time. If I'm wrong, tell me you don't support a coercive government. My opinions are based on a life of observations, I trust what I see, not always what I am told by people that think they own others.
 

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
Okay. Yet your one issue does not occur as a single happening, it is a symptom and a result of a greater issue.

I don't know that what you support, but I have inferred that you support a government that can talk out of both sides of its mouth at the side time. If I'm wrong, tell me you don't support a coercive government. My opinions are based on a life of observations, I trust what I see, not always what I am told by people that think they own others.
Unfortunately inferring and opinion don't make fact. Phrasing that is partial, ignoring the issue, and irrelevant angst are not convincing of anything. I support issues one at a time, I ask to see perspective, and have to live in the world as it is......
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately inferring and opinion don't make fact. Phrasing that is partial, ignoring the issue, and irrelevant angst are not convincing of anything. I support issues one at a time, I ask to see perspective, and have to live in the world as it is......
Okay. So you do or do not support a coercive government?

I think that counts as one question, perhaps by answering that you can give me a clearer understanding of your point of view or the measure of your dissonance.
 

BigNBushy

Well-Known Member
A non-coercive government is impotent. We actually tried that with the articles of confederation prior to the drafting and adaptation to our current constitution. It was a disaster.

I am not an anarchist, government needs to have some level of coercive capability. The problem is a coercive government can coerce it's self more power. We have gotten to the point now that the states have been so neutered that they have essentially abdicated their power to the federal government. We need to repeal the 16th and 17th amendment and then things might start to get in better shape. The federal governments ability to tax any damn thing it wants and the inability of state governments to be represented in the federal government since the senate was switched to popular vote instead of state government appointments has really fundamentally altered the balance of power between state and federal governments in a bad way.
 

burgertime2010

Well-Known Member
Okay. So you do or do not support a coercive government?

I think that counts as one question, perhaps by answering that you can give me a clearer understanding of your point of view or the measure of your dissonance.
I support issues not institutions. There are aspects of government I find necessary and ones that are unfavorable. You want to know how I feel about something specific? I don't do generic condescending Q and A's.
 

nevyn

Member
with a command of the english language like that, it is no wonder you had to accept subway U's offer.
Did you understand what he said, I did, so why is the sentence structure and spelling so important to you? Seems like a silly way to do things, or is it because you can't inject anything substantial into the debate, yep I reckon it's that.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
A non-coercive government is impotent. We actually tried that with the articles of confederation prior to the drafting and adaptation to our current constitution. It was a disaster.

I am not an anarchist, government needs to have some level of coercive capability. The problem is a coercive government can coerce it's self more power. We have gotten to the point now that the states have been so neutered that they have essentially abdicated their power to the federal government. We need to repeal the 16th and 17th amendment and then things might start to get in better shape. The federal governments ability to tax any damn thing it wants and the inability of state governments to be represented in the federal government since the senate was switched to popular vote instead of state government appointments has really fundamentally altered the balance of power between state and federal governments in a bad way.

A coercive government does not support freedom or peace. Without those two things, the rest of the unraveling will always follow.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
Did you understand what he said, I did, so why is the sentence structure and spelling so important to you? Seems like a silly way to do things, or is it because you can't inject anything substantial into the debate, yep I reckon it's that.
i was just pointing out that he is law school material is all.

don't break your leg rushing to the defense of a fellow racist, my little sock puppet penis monkey.
 

nevyn

Member
i was just pointing out that he is law school material is all.

don't break your leg rushing to the defense of a fellow racist, my little sock puppet penis monkey.
You probably don't realise that the sock puppet thingy has no real relevance to me, I just think it's stupid, I am not from your country so I don't even know what it really means. I protect my brothers man, we trying to free the world of people that think like you because you fucking it up for everybody.
 
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