There Is No Devil.

bigtomatofarmer · Aug 25, 2009

So, what do YOU believe will happen after you die?
Heaven? Hell? Purgatory? Ghosts? Nothing?

g00sEgg · Aug 25, 2009

bigtomatofarmer said:
So, what do YOU believe will happen after you die?
Heaven? Hell? Purgatory? Ghosts? Nothing?

No way of telling, whatsoever. In my mind...this is one of the hardest things for me.

CrackerJax · Aug 25, 2009

Same here.... I haven't the FOGGIEST idea what happens IF ANYTHING. It will be a complete surprise either way... :lol:

I don't worry about it though....I was given life...I owe a death. I accept it because I have to.

anhedonia · Aug 25, 2009

In Tibetan Buddhism they have a manual which is basically what the mahayana Buddhist believe what happens at death. The Tibetan book of the dead. They say that at death you go into a state where full realization can be attained. I think its all contingent on karma and the state of mind you are in at the point of death.

CrackerJax · Aug 25, 2009

I have a copy of that book..... it's a great read.

anhedonia · Aug 25, 2009

The translation I read had all the sanskrit words that confuse the hell out of me. Its hard trying to remember all that stuff.

CrackerJax · Aug 25, 2009

I don't worry about remembering that book. It's all about building foundations to attain true enlightenment. I'm pretty sure I have a long way to go.... :lol:

blakkmask · Aug 29, 2009

Ive always Imagined that, since we are said to have a soul, that your soul would be made of energy. Science 101 states that energy never dies it just changes form. All the heat and electrical impulses from the body have to dissipate and go somewhere. People report ghosts as balls of light and illuminated figures and it gets extremly cold when in the presence of an apparition. For a ghost to create enough energy to be seen by the living it must produce a large amount of energy which explains the coldness...they absorb heat from the surrounding atmosphere to illuminate themselves coalesce into a visible form. And as Anhedonia said, the state of mind of the person at the time of death determines the state of mind of the spirit. A violent horrible death leads to an angry, spiteful spirit whos psyche is shattered and twisted. Those who die a natural, peaceful death become Inlightened. Their mind is clear they remember loved ones and still have understanding.

shroomer33 · Nov 5, 2009

PadawanBater said:
The book is called On the Origin of Species.

It is actually called:

On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.

...favored races huh.....

I think we all know what the book is called.

I've read a lot of it, he clearly states the mechanisms involved in his theory.

He also clearly states the downfall of his theory.
Which now is (his theory's downfall is a reality. he didn't know that at the time.) clearly established in the fossil record.

(forgive me here. kind of tripping balls....)

His theory includes the idea that all life present on earth came from the same form of life billions of years ago, but the book mainly focuses on the observed changes in specific species over time, like dogs and birds, finches in particular, and his travels to the Galapagos Islands where he started putting everything together after observing the nature around him. This book was published in 1859.. that's 150 years ago. The theory of evolution back in that day was at it's most basic level, nowhere near where it is today,

we now know it is a joke because of the fossil record.
we have a clearer picture of the fossil record and what it means.
And to his credit, much of what he said was true.
but his conclusions were WAY wrong.

so the point you're trying to make, even if it was valid, is moot because the theory is not the same today and nobody believes the exact same things Darwin did,

wrong. Darwin's theory is the basis of modern evolutionary theory.

that's why it's sort of silly to call someone a "Darwinist" or an "Evolutionist"

I hate the term 'evolution' because it has soooo many meanings.

(also why you only hear those terms from the religious community, also another reason I think you are not telling me the full truth to your background, scientists don't use those terms,

well, I do.
physics has nothing to do with evolution.

those words were made up to make the theory seem less valid to the layman who doesn't understand it)

these words create confusion. lets define our terms before a debate.

.. it makes about as much sense as calling someone a "Newtonian" or a "Gravitationist" if they believe in the theory of gravity, or a "Einsteinian" or a "Relativist" if they believe in the theory of relativity..

It does state that, but it also states a lot of other things too. It's not just natural selection that drives evolution, there are five other (known) factors involved. What's the point?

random mutation would be one of them.
yeah, what is your point?

So basically what you're saying is you accept 'micro-evolution' - that is, change in the same species over time, ex. dogs, birds, cats, etc. but you deny 'macro-evolution'

Right. There is NO proof for macroevolution.
Darwin thought they'd be discovered. They haven't.

- that is, change from one species to another totally different species (the definition of that simply being one species one generation then another species a few generations later that is incapable of breeding fertile offspring with the original species, which we've observed multiple times aleady..) ex. land animals evolving into whales, dinosaurs evolving into birds, reptiles/amphibians evolving into mammals. - Is that right?

To that I ask, what's the difference? What if I changed a million different things about you, do you think people would still be able to recognize who you are?

no. they wouldn't. I wouldn't be me.

whoa. that's trippy man.
I wouldn't be me...
then who would I be????
who you made me to be....
but that's not me.

whewwww
I am still tripping balls.

That's not what it is though, you can't just call something what you think it is and go from there.. How life began is a-biogenesis, not evolution. It's a very important distinction, one has nothing to do with the other.

Amino acids are the building blocks OF DNA. They are what hold the information within the DNA code.

Yeah. They carry the information. Where did the information come from.???!!!!!!!!

They have recreated these in the lab, established the beginning stages of synthetic life, that is amazing. What will you guys say when they actually create single celled lifeforms under laboratory conditions? - that they're not actually 'alive'? (probably because they don't have ''souls''... am I right?)

Also, explain to me why every single living thing on earth is coded with DNA and carbon based.

Why does every car have an engine?

Why would an intelligent God do that?

Why wouldn't an intelligent God use what works?
Carbon and DNA.

Doesn't the fact that every single living organism on earth ever discovered all have the exact same information structure - that is DNA,

life is bigger than the DNA

with the base pairs being Guanine, Cytosine, Adenine and Thymine - suggest that all living things on earth are related?

Computer programs can be written in many different languages, but you only need to use a language that suits your needs and likes as a programmer. That doesn't change
The conclusion:

dude. tripping balls...
gotta move on for now....

You would think, out of all of them, all the millions of species ever studied, ONE would come out with some other element to be based on other than Carbon, right?

So are you asking why we don't see Java programs in a C++ world?

If you believe in evolution,

This is my point here!!
WTF do you mean evolution???
I do believe in 'evolution'!!

what reason would you have to believe in God? Where does God come into play in this equation?

It's a matter of what best fits the evidence.
We see INFORMATION in the cell. How did it get there?
Darwinian processes aren't enough to explain it!

Some form of intelligent life is responsible for our life. There is no escaping that SCIENTIFIC discovery.

Now is it aliens????

I say HELL NO. But thats another story.

What indicates, to you, that God had anything to do with the process of evolution on earth (even after already admitting that macro-evolution is impossible)?

The Cambrian Explosion.

I think this is a weak position to hold because you don't have to choose a side, you can pick the happy middle and figure it's all good. But to me, the problem still exists. I don't see a reason to believe in God

Where did the information in the cell come from?

(honestly, regardless of if evolution were true or not), so how would evolution being false make creationism correct?

I see no evidence to suggest God had anything to do with the process, what evidence do you see?

information in the dna. but there is a ton more evidence in areas other than science.

So then why is it hard to believe that all these little changes would be passed down to the next generations, all of them would slowly add up and create

cause there is NO evidence to believe it (new body types, that is).

science is evidence based.
you can do anything with math, but is your theory real?

new species that are incapable of producing fertile offspring, after thousands of generations? I don't understand, what is stopping the larger changes from happening that is not stopping the smaller ones?

the larger changes are changes in body types and such. I guess that would be phyla.
We don't see small, slow change in the fossil record. We see jumps.
Darwin's theory is wrong, and he knew it. He just had faith that the fossil record would show him to be right. It hasn't. As a matter of fact, he's wrong. And he understood why.

Biology and Chemistry

And yes, that was much better, thank you for taking it point by point.

Peace out bitches.....
And if your name is Eugene, be careful with that freaking axe....bitch....

I loved the episode of South Park where Butters becomes a pimp.

peace out my niggaz and crackaz.

And please don't hate on a playa.
Mad love to you all. For God so loved the world that He gave His Son for it.

It is all about LOVE!!!

If you ain't down with that, then you got problems...

CrackerJax · Nov 5, 2009

blakkmask said:
Ive always Imagined that, since we are said to have a soul, that your soul would be made of energy. Science 101 states that energy never dies it just changes form. All the heat and electrical impulses from the body have to dissipate and go somewhere. People report ghosts as balls of light and illuminated figures and it gets extremly cold when in the presence of an apparition. For a ghost to create enough energy to be seen by the living it must produce a large amount of energy which explains the coldness...they absorb heat from the surrounding atmosphere to illuminate themselves coalesce into a visible form. And as Anhedonia said, the state of mind of the person at the time of death determines the state of mind of the spirit. A violent horrible death leads to an angry, spiteful spirit whos psyche is shattered and twisted. Those who die a natural, peaceful death become Inlightened. Their mind is clear they remember loved ones and still have understanding.

You started out with the flaw however.

No evidence of any soul....anywhere.

=======================================================

Shroom, yes u were trippin...... come down to reality before u post.... mostly gibberish.

morgentaler · Nov 5, 2009

Wow. Zombie thread walks the earth.

@Shroomer:

Your argument for the lack of evidence in the fossil record is based on 150 year old creationist drivel, whether you believe in evolution or not.

There is now substantive evidence in the form of transitional fossils and DNA, ERVs and mitochondrial DNA linking species.

---

This conversation seems to be a roundabout argument for the existence of "God". When lacking proof of a god, using gaps in knowledge in unrelated subjects is a poor tactic and hardly scientific.

If you want to prove a god, then prove it by addressing the god directly. Saying "Well, we don't understand concept X yet, hence GOD!" is a common tactic and completely useless and irrelevant.

Evolution neither proves nor disproves god. It is the gradual change over time of organisms into divergent species. So feel free to leave evolution out of religion, and religion out of evolution.

PadawanBater · Nov 5, 2009

It is actually called:

On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.
...favored races huh.....
I think we all know what the book is called.

Pretty typical accusation there Shroomer... But I think you should work on the subtlety a little bit. Darwin was not a racist, he wasn't sexist, he wasn't the Nazi parties first member... but consider this; even if he was, how would that make his theory any less valid? The theory stands on it's own with or without Darwin, so I don't understand how any of the mans personal opinions weigh in on the validity of the theory of evolution. It would remain just as valid if Adolf Hitler himself came up with it.

He also clearly states the downfall of his theory.

Which now is (his theory's downfall is a reality. he didn't know that at the time.) clearly established in the fossil record.

What exactly do you mean when you say the fossil record is the downfall of the theory of evolution? Every single fossil that has been accepted into the scientific community is evidence supporting the theory. We are talking litterally millions of fossils all over the world, each and every single one of them was found in the correct, predicted, strata layer, organisms go from basic in the early Earth to more complex the older the planet gets. There's absolutley nothing in the fossil record that contradicts the theory of evolution, not one thing. If there is, point it out. Again, you can't just say "it's wrong because I say it's wrong" and not provide any evidence. So why exactly do you feel the fossil record is not valid?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

wrong. Darwin's theory is the basis of modern evolutionary theory.

Right, but like I said, the form of evolution Darwin came up with is the most basic version of his theory. A good comparison would be something like saying modern michanics are reading the manuals to repair the ancient model T's, the first cars to come off the assembly line in the early 1900's. See what I mean, if they were to only read those manuals, they'd have no idea how to work on any of the modern cars with the computer and electrical systems we have today right? The theory of evolution has had 150 years to build upon.

I hate the term 'evolution' because it has soooo many meanings.

"Evolution" means only one thing - change in a living organism over time. If you accept the theory of evolution, you accept that all living organisms on Earth today came from the same common anscestor some time in the distant past.
There are other terms to describe other components of the theory, to be more specific, but that's what the theory describes.

Right. There is NO proof for macroevolution.

Darwin thought they'd be discovered. They haven't.

Totally wrong. Macro evolution has been observed in living organisms.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2487,Lizards-Undergo-Rapid-Evolution-After-Introduction-To-A-New-Home,Science-Daily

"As a result, individuals on Pod Mrcaru have heads that are longer, wider and taller than those on Pod Kopiste, which translates into a big increase in bite force," says Irschick. "Because plants are tough and fibrous, high bite forces allow the lizards to crop smaller pieces from plants, which can help them break down the indigestible cell walls."

That is a direct observation of macro evolution, physical changes in a daughter branch of the same species of lizards via natural selection, just as Darwin predicted.

http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/evol/lizard.html

"One well known macroevolutionary event is the specialization of lizards on Caribbean islands. Lizards have evolved into 150 different species spread across these islands. Losos and his colleagues write that their lizard experiment suggests that macroevolution is simply microevolution observed over a much larger time period."

Yeah. They carry the information. Where did the information come from.???!!!!!!!!

There's a good talk by Lawrence Krauss about this exact issue. Watch this video;

[youtube]7ImvlS8PLIo[/youtube]

The entire thing is worth watching. He explains in detail how modern science deals with the issue of "everything coming from nothing".

The real issue is the question. You don't understand that you are asking an illogical question. Just like if I were to ask you what the color purple tasted like. How would you answer that?.. Just like "what was before the big bang?" -- that doesn't make any sense, as time did not exist yet, so you wouldn't be able to say anything was before the big bang.. Some questions just don't make any logical sense.

Explain to me what information you're talking about exactly? Or why you would describe it as such? I don't see any reason why random mutations influenced by the environment the organism is in couldn't manipulate the genes into developing any sort of new beneficial physical feature. Why couldn't it? We've observed it. We know it happens. It does happen. Is God behind the scenes still creating new creatures? Did God give man the ability to manipulate genes and animals environments and breeding conditions to create animals with traits that appeal to us?

Why does every car have an engine?

But why Carbon? Can you tell me what's so special about that element Shroomer?

Why wouldn't an intelligent God use what works?

Carbon and DNA.

Listen to yourself. You're talking about a supernatural being with unlimited power. Anything would work. The only reason a god would base every single existing life form we know of off the same element, Carbon, would be to attempt to deceive us. That fact alone suggests all life on Earth is related at the very least. Why do the species that most resemble us have the most in common with our genetics? Why do all mammals have four limbs?

So are you asking why we don't see Java programs in a C++ world?

I'm asking why a god would attempt to deceive us?

It's a matter of what best fits the evidence.

We see INFORMATION in the cell. How did it get there?
Darwinian processes aren't enough to explain it!
Some form of intelligent life is responsible for our life. There is no escaping that SCIENTIFIC discovery.
Now is it aliens????
I say HELL NO. But thats another story.

Duuuuuuuuuuude... you are killing me.. Please look at this and seriously consider what I'm saying. This is important. You make a HUGE ERROR in judgement when you do this.

Say that we had no explination for the information retained inside the cell, we knew NOTHING about it at all, not a damn thing. That's totally false, we have really good theories about the cell, it's evolution, it's components, their jobs, how they all work, etc... we know a shit ton about the cell and how it works... but just for the sake of this hypothetical, say we didn't... ... ...

k... now, go ahead with your theory. "God did it!"? --... OK... What makes you say that? Where is your evidence to support your claim? Your evidence amounts to "the cell is too complicated, I can't understand how it works or how it could have come into existence... so that means God did it!"... Really? ...really? You think that is evidence in support of your theory? No man, that is not how SCIENCE works. A SCIENTIST would know that.

The Cambrian Explosion.

WTF? The Cambrian Explosion took place 530 million years ago!

the larger changes are changes in body types and such. I guess that would be phyla.

We don't see small, slow change in the fossil record. We see jumps.
Darwin's theory is wrong, and he knew it. He just had faith that the fossil record would show him to be right. It hasn't. As a matter of fact, he's wrong. And he understood why.

You seriously are trippin' man! We have evidence of slow gradual changes of tons of different species of animals today. We've got their entire lineage all the way back, millions of years ago to the very beginning of some of them! We've got almost 5.5 million years verified homo evolution with the recent discovery of Ardi. All of them line up perfectly with the predictions of evolution, again, thousands of them..

fish601 · Nov 6, 2009

PadawanBater said:
You seriously are trippin' man!

................................

Acts 17:24-31 The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

are we alive just to be alive?
can you find an answer for anything you look for?

CrackerJax · Nov 6, 2009

There is simply no evidence that nature is goal oriented. Species come and they go. T Rex lived for MILLIONS of years.... Millions!! To no avail.... no goal. Now nature has created a being that can spend time contemplating mortality and all the trappings that go along with that. This does not mean that nature has suddenly invented a goal for that being. That is wishful, perhaps ego centric thinking. Has nature made a long lived species? Is being sentient enough of an advantage to keep us from going extinct? No one knows..... there is no plan. There is no pattern to guide nor predict.

fish601 · Dec 5, 2009

CrackerJax said:
T Rex lived for MILLIONS of years.... Millions!! .

millions haha hoax jokes its all fun

biggun · Dec 6, 2009

The Devil is all the guilt we carry inside? But what about the guiltless who do evil things? where does that evil come from? I think it is some sort of chemical imbalance in their heads. But if you believe that then you have to except that god is not perfect and accidentally fucked up a few. So then let me ask you does god feel guilty about them, I mean just suppose the evil doer really does not know he is doing wrong, then how does god judge them or does he never judge and accepts all into heaven? Judging man by what is in his heart and not by his deeds?

PadawanBater · Dec 6, 2009

fish601 said:
millions haha hoax jokes its all fun

Hey fish... if the dating methods don't work, like you insist they don't, then why don't some creationist 'scientists' just fake a fossil as evidence for creationism? They could easily fake a fossilized bunny in some precambrian strata layers if they did it right, and according to you, the real scientists wouldn't know the difference, because they wouldn't be able to accurately date it! Creationism FTW!!

So... why don't they do it?

BECAUSE THEY KNOW THE DATING METHODS ARE ACCURATE, AND IF THEY TRIED SUCH A BULLSHIT STUNT, IT WOULD BE DISCARDED IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE THE DATES WOULD ALL INDEPENDENTLY LINE UP WITH THAT OF A FABRICATED FOSSIL.

krustofskie · Dec 8, 2009

fish601 said:
millions haha hoax jokes its all fun

A fan of Kent Hovind by any chance. You seem to use his arguments quite often, if not his arguments then very close to. If so you should check this out.

http://www.kent-hovind.com/

anhedonia · Dec 11, 2009

Ive had dreams of being absorbed into a white light and feeling an intense overwhelming sense of love and peace that ive ever felt. Only lasts for a few seconds before it goes away. Other dreams Ive experienced this feeling watching a flock of birds land next to a fence in the distance and also these beautiful webs of water forming in the sky gave me that same sense of well being, love and peace.
I can see people saying its god but it isnt. When I first had one of those dreams I mentioned it to an evangelical minister and he told me it was satan. Pretty funny. But it takes no belief in a god to experience states of love peace and joy.

kronic1989 · Dec 11, 2009

He told you it was satan? Such peaceful dreams? I wonder what he had nightmares about...

There Is No Devil.

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