Dr.Pecker
Well-Known Member
I think you're AOK!Just for trying.
This deficiency happens every cycle
- Thread starter Mjaylover
- Start date
Cliff Notes
I recently bought the aqua 6 grow pots, made a diy controller and had a 50 gallon drum so I made a 6 unit ebb and flow system. Never messed with ebb and flow but done several rdwc grows and several soil grows over the last 5 years.
I wasn't seeing lots of growth from the clones and didn't know what flood schedule to follow so I messed with it from floods every 2 hrs to every 5 hrs. Finally settling on every 3 hrs. Saw some pretty good growth but plants were stretching and roots were filling up the middle of the two buckets. I didn't know if the roots would strictly stay in the middle of the two buckets so i added growbags into the upper bucket with hydroton. I was using nutrients from mbferts.com and following the feed schedule with calmag when I saw little spots on leaves which evenly turn into the leaves you see on page one so I switched to Lucas formula at 8mls of flora nova bloom. Ph was starting to drop, ppms were rising daily so I back off the nutrient to about 5mls per gallon not adding calmag sense lucas doesn't recommend it ( I didn't know if adding calmag to the other line of nutes could have caused the problem)
flash forward to everyone mentioning
Temp issue
Condensation issue
Nutrient Defiency
Calmag
Nute Burn
Root Rot
Salt build up
Now I appreciate everyones input and I can put this grow behind me knowing a have a few more before I have to stop but lets start with a process of elimination
I dropped temp on my mini split unit
I checked condensation and there isn't any on leaves
I will add the 1/2 chiller back to this setup if people really think water temps are a problem. I mean if it is won't we see pearly white roots start to grow through brown ones. Question is I have white roots in my DWC right now with ph of 5.5 and temps 72 degrees. If root rot was an temp issue would I not see it in these vegging plants. Also the reason why I switched from rdwc setup to ebb and flow is because i read multiple articles claiming water temps are not affected in E&F setups
I'm still thinking its a flood time issue or not enough floods or too much causing roots to die, but hey I'm no pro. When I looked for roots in the hydroton just now I could not find any that looked alive. they were all dead which makes me think the flood times are an issue by not enough or too much
And once again I truly appreciate everyones input. I'm really frustrated right now so no one take it personally.
New res change:
7 mls of Bloom A
7 mls of Bloom B
1.25 mls of silica 0-0-4
20 (out of 40) gallons of tap water 180ppm
20 (out of 40) gallons of RO water 15ppms
5mls of calmag (only 20 gallons worth of RO water)
2 mls of Aquaguard
PPMs 605
ph 6.05
77 day time temps
45% daytime humidity
64 night time temp
53 % night time humidity
I recently bought the aqua 6 grow pots, made a diy controller and had a 50 gallon drum so I made a 6 unit ebb and flow system. Never messed with ebb and flow but done several rdwc grows and several soil grows over the last 5 years.
I wasn't seeing lots of growth from the clones and didn't know what flood schedule to follow so I messed with it from floods every 2 hrs to every 5 hrs. Finally settling on every 3 hrs. Saw some pretty good growth but plants were stretching and roots were filling up the middle of the two buckets. I didn't know if the roots would strictly stay in the middle of the two buckets so i added growbags into the upper bucket with hydroton. I was using nutrients from mbferts.com and following the feed schedule with calmag when I saw little spots on leaves which evenly turn into the leaves you see on page one so I switched to Lucas formula at 8mls of flora nova bloom. Ph was starting to drop, ppms were rising daily so I back off the nutrient to about 5mls per gallon not adding calmag sense lucas doesn't recommend it ( I didn't know if adding calmag to the other line of nutes could have caused the problem)
flash forward to everyone mentioning
Temp issue
Condensation issue
Nutrient Defiency
Calmag
Nute Burn
Root Rot
Salt build up
Now I appreciate everyones input and I can put this grow behind me knowing a have a few more before I have to stop but lets start with a process of elimination
I dropped temp on my mini split unit
I checked condensation and there isn't any on leaves
I will add the 1/2 chiller back to this setup if people really think water temps are a problem. I mean if it is won't we see pearly white roots start to grow through brown ones. Question is I have white roots in my DWC right now with ph of 5.5 and temps 72 degrees. If root rot was an temp issue would I not see it in these vegging plants. Also the reason why I switched from rdwc setup to ebb and flow is because i read multiple articles claiming water temps are not affected in E&F setups
I'm still thinking its a flood time issue or not enough floods or too much causing roots to die, but hey I'm no pro. When I looked for roots in the hydroton just now I could not find any that looked alive. they were all dead which makes me think the flood times are an issue by not enough or too much
And once again I truly appreciate everyones input. I'm really frustrated right now so no one take it personally.
New res change:
7 mls of Bloom A
7 mls of Bloom B
1.25 mls of silica 0-0-4
20 (out of 40) gallons of tap water 180ppm
20 (out of 40) gallons of RO water 15ppms
5mls of calmag (only 20 gallons worth of RO water)
2 mls of Aquaguard
PPMs 605
ph 6.05
77 day time temps
45% daytime humidity
64 night time temp
53 % night time humidity
Last edited:
polishpollack
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing most likely it's due to a disease that kills the roots, like pythium. if the roots and water have a brown slime, it's probably algae. there are products that can help you control root diseases. I don't know about your flood times. never did e and f. If this isn't staining from a fert, then I'd say it's a disease of some type, not necessarily pH or nute related, but any temp extreme could create it, light getting to your water could create it. You almost need to get those roots to a lab and have them tested, but this probably isn't a good idea if it's illegal in your state.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
@Mjaylover
Ok,,,,,,Here we go.....
Keep the res below 68 at all times. 62 to 68
You say it smells like growth - EARTHY SOIL SMELL? THAT means rot is happening..I see too much brown in the roots pics...This helps lower pH and I'll get into that in detail below.
I don't see what I was asking about in the "black spots" or see the tell table white "slime" around the spots. So good on that...
I suspect you were locking out the Ca with Si at the mix.......Odd though that you get a falling pH as that indicates excess of Ca - Mg - K and NH4........Not the Ca, Mg or K so that brings us back to the Rot as NH4 "Ammonium" (ammonia is the precursor to ammonium and the creation of NH4 from ammonia is increased as the pH drops).....SO, it's a self perpetuating problem as long as the ammonia is supplied.......SO,,,,,,
One problem could be that your roots are "shedding" more cellulose from the root growth and that is "rotting" and providing more ammonia to fuel the conversion to ammonium and dropping the pH as an ongoing and increasing result.
Solution - Use a "ZYME" product from Hesi (POWER ZYME) or Canna (ZYME)......These are specific spectrum Biologics that actually "eat" or consume the cellulose fiber the roots shed and turn it into plant usable nutrition......Oh course, reducing available ammonia....
Another could be that you are getting a rising amount of root rot that we simply can't see (some area's did look worse then others and can help to explain the oversize root growth as in them being long and not "ball" like in shape) and that is increasing the available ammonia. I might suspect a contamination of equipment for this ongoing problem..Below I will show you how to treat this in this grow....When the grow is over.....Sanitize everything inside and out with a Hydrogen Peroxide solution for sanitizing hydro equipment - You SHOULD be doing this after every grow! How to do that follows too.
These 2 things address the lowering pH and your leaf problems as we already know that are locking out the Ca....
So,,lets work on the ongoing grow first.....
Get some 35 or 40% Hydrogen Peroxide (I prefer the 40%).....Cheap place to get it is a beauty supply store.....they have both 35 and 40 % - get a few quarts or a gallon if you can.
Grow/hydro supply shop will have 35% but their mark up is stupid....Still if you have no other choice DO IT!
Lets work here on attempting to get the roots cleaned and healthy, while cleaning the system a bit too.
We need to make a 3% solution for this (don't cheat and get drug store 3% as it's not pure and contains contaminates that can ruin the grow).
USE GLOVES WHEN HANDLING THE PEROXIDE!
Mix the peroxide to RO water at 11 parts water to 1 part peroxide and store this in a BROWN gallon bottle....
Now dump your res and drain (as best you can) any remaining nutrient solution from the pots. THROW AWAY the nutrient solution!
Refill the res with RO water to your normal level and add, say for you here - 5ml of the 3% peroxide you made to every gallon of water in the res. Run for 24 hrs.....you should be running a cycle every 3 hrs and one at lights out.....
Now dump and refill with fresh nutrient solution and run.......Do this at every res refill for this grow run! (USE THE ZYME PRODUCT!) You could add 75ml of the 3% to the fresh res as an O2 booster and it helps keep the rot away too.
You should INCREASE the air your putting in the res too! You do run an aquarium air pump with a stone in the res right? DOUBLE THAT AMOUNT!
Now at the end of the run. You need to REALLY clean the system!
Add 280ml of the peroxide (40%) to every gallon of water it takes to run the system at bare minimum to fill the pots and run that for 6 hrs.....spray this mix at any level not reached by the sanitizing solution on your system inside and out (use gloves again!).
Use bottle brush's to do tubing as best you can and scrub out pots and res too...
Rinse with clean RO and start your next grow.....
I think this will solve your problem.....IF between the the first and second dump and peroxide run the browning does not stop...Increase the amount of 3% in the "wash" to 7 1/2ml per gallon.....
Let us know if this helped out OK?
I think it will!
Doc
I really stayed at home longer then I intended to do this - but I promised a solution and I don't brake my word......I'm off to my harvest work....
GOOD LUCK BRO!
Ok,,,,,,Here we go.....
Keep the res below 68 at all times. 62 to 68
You say it smells like growth - EARTHY SOIL SMELL? THAT means rot is happening..I see too much brown in the roots pics...This helps lower pH and I'll get into that in detail below.
I don't see what I was asking about in the "black spots" or see the tell table white "slime" around the spots. So good on that...
I suspect you were locking out the Ca with Si at the mix.......Odd though that you get a falling pH as that indicates excess of Ca - Mg - K and NH4........Not the Ca, Mg or K so that brings us back to the Rot as NH4 "Ammonium" (ammonia is the precursor to ammonium and the creation of NH4 from ammonia is increased as the pH drops).....SO, it's a self perpetuating problem as long as the ammonia is supplied.......SO,,,,,,
One problem could be that your roots are "shedding" more cellulose from the root growth and that is "rotting" and providing more ammonia to fuel the conversion to ammonium and dropping the pH as an ongoing and increasing result.
Solution - Use a "ZYME" product from Hesi (POWER ZYME) or Canna (ZYME)......These are specific spectrum Biologics that actually "eat" or consume the cellulose fiber the roots shed and turn it into plant usable nutrition......Oh course, reducing available ammonia....
Another could be that you are getting a rising amount of root rot that we simply can't see (some area's did look worse then others and can help to explain the oversize root growth as in them being long and not "ball" like in shape) and that is increasing the available ammonia. I might suspect a contamination of equipment for this ongoing problem..Below I will show you how to treat this in this grow....When the grow is over.....Sanitize everything inside and out with a Hydrogen Peroxide solution for sanitizing hydro equipment - You SHOULD be doing this after every grow! How to do that follows too.
These 2 things address the lowering pH and your leaf problems as we already know that are locking out the Ca....
So,,lets work on the ongoing grow first.....
Get some 35 or 40% Hydrogen Peroxide (I prefer the 40%).....Cheap place to get it is a beauty supply store.....they have both 35 and 40 % - get a few quarts or a gallon if you can.
Grow/hydro supply shop will have 35% but their mark up is stupid....Still if you have no other choice DO IT!
Lets work here on attempting to get the roots cleaned and healthy, while cleaning the system a bit too.
We need to make a 3% solution for this (don't cheat and get drug store 3% as it's not pure and contains contaminates that can ruin the grow).
USE GLOVES WHEN HANDLING THE PEROXIDE!
Mix the peroxide to RO water at 11 parts water to 1 part peroxide and store this in a BROWN gallon bottle....
Now dump your res and drain (as best you can) any remaining nutrient solution from the pots. THROW AWAY the nutrient solution!
Refill the res with RO water to your normal level and add, say for you here - 5ml of the 3% peroxide you made to every gallon of water in the res. Run for 24 hrs.....you should be running a cycle every 3 hrs and one at lights out.....
Now dump and refill with fresh nutrient solution and run.......Do this at every res refill for this grow run! (USE THE ZYME PRODUCT!) You could add 75ml of the 3% to the fresh res as an O2 booster and it helps keep the rot away too.
You should INCREASE the air your putting in the res too! You do run an aquarium air pump with a stone in the res right? DOUBLE THAT AMOUNT!
Now at the end of the run. You need to REALLY clean the system!
Add 280ml of the peroxide (40%) to every gallon of water it takes to run the system at bare minimum to fill the pots and run that for 6 hrs.....spray this mix at any level not reached by the sanitizing solution on your system inside and out (use gloves again!).
Use bottle brush's to do tubing as best you can and scrub out pots and res too...
Rinse with clean RO and start your next grow.....
I think this will solve your problem.....IF between the the first and second dump and peroxide run the browning does not stop...Increase the amount of 3% in the "wash" to 7 1/2ml per gallon.....
Let us know if this helped out OK?
I think it will!
Doc
I really stayed at home longer then I intended to do this - but I promised a solution and I don't brake my word......I'm off to my harvest work....
GOOD LUCK BRO!
Attachments
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Yea I wish I could send the roots off somewhere but unfortunately I can't
Wow I have a lot to do today. Thank you for your detailed post. I've only added silica to the last two res changes thinking it was a K deficiency and the system is freshly built and never been run before so the only contamination is the one i'm doing to it now on this grow. When you say run the system for 6 hrs, does that mean flood once during that time and let the water sit in the buckets or multiple floods throughout the 6 hrs. Also adding 75ml to the res for a O2 booster, is that per gallon or for the total 40 gallon res?
Thanks again
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
1: If it circulates - continuous. If not set it to flood and drain as much as possible...
2: For the whole 40 gallons....
Damn, while I was at the harvesting. I had thought of something to add......I forgot - LOL....I'll add it later if I remember...
No problem - I felt compelled to help - Thanks to Dr. Pecker!
Doc
WAIT! I got it......O2 will go a long way (in your water) to retard bacterial and fungal growth!
Be sure to have air pumping into your RO storage tank too! I run a med power 2 outlet pump and use both to stones in mine.
Oh yeah, your pH meter is fine - use it!
20/20 hindsight!
Just got the new filters and membrane and hydrozyme. Man the filters are expensive. Almost the cost of a new machine. I'm off to the Brett supply store now.
I was thinking about my RO machine and I had to stop for a few months and forgot to do anything with my RO machine so water sat in there for months. I was told just to run the machine for a few hours before saving the water. Do you think all this time I've been using contaminated water from RO machine?
But it probably isn't plausible since I'm using the same ro water in my veg plants right now
Edit: is this the right hydrogen peroxide. This is what the beauty supply said to be 40 percent peroxide
I was thinking about my RO machine and I had to stop for a few months and forgot to do anything with my RO machine so water sat in there for months. I was told just to run the machine for a few hours before saving the water. Do you think all this time I've been using contaminated water from RO machine?
But it probably isn't plausible since I'm using the same ro water in my veg plants right now
Edit: is this the right hydrogen peroxide. This is what the beauty supply said to be 40 percent peroxide
Attachments
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Forgot to tag you In Last post.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
YUP! That's my peroxide,,,,,Thank you Sally's !
Not very likely.....It "could" get contaminated by touching the membrane with bare fingers......Easy to tell. Leave a glass of water from it out for a cpl of days covered......Something grows and you need to cycle some chlorine through it and then let it run for an hr draining away the water that rinses it out for that hr.....(remove filters and put the chlorine in the 2nd filter tank.....1/2 cup) If you feel the need to go longer on the "rinse", go 2 hrs.
USE THE OLD MEMBRANE TO DO THIS! Rinse out the filter tank you used with the chlorine before reinserting the filter....
Doc
Well I already replaced the membrane and filters. The damn water pressure when I turn my valve on is like a mini fire hose spray before it just dribbled out. Check out the pics of the filters
Edit I hooked the discharge line up wrong so it switched and it dribbles out like before
3ppms coming out the out line now
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Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
I suspect no prob with the unit.....Keep the way to clean that in your Notes in case you need it for the future....
Cool beans
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
Yeah Doc, I still have a 2x2 ebb I made some years back.....I use that to figure yield rates on new strains and just for fun too.....Neat little system made of 1/2" sq. steel tube.....Holds the light, fans, tray and tank all in the 2x2 footprint......I was pretty sharp when I was younger - LOL!
I do a few DWC buckets in the winter to test new hydro products sent to me......I have to give honest reports back, some are not to popular with the makers.....Not my problem - they asked!
Here's the options as far as pumps go. I have the one on the left it's a old 8500 something. Don't know the name off hand, the one next is a 7500 (smaller), next is one is pretty nosey and puts out a good amount of heat, and the last is my billy badass that I had in the 8 bucket rdwc setup. Puts out a ton of air but also runs the most electricity. I'm intally shutdown the dwc setup because I thought I would save a lot more money in electricity if I didn't have to run the big air pump, water pumps, and water chiller so keep that in mind
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Sounds good. Pm the address to the farm.
So the big one on the right? I wonder if it will sound like a water is boiling upstairs.
Dr. Who
Well-Known Member
The farm is really my farm....I run a 3 farm organic co-op.....We use teas a lot, for many things.......Sounds good. Pm the address to the farm.
So the big one on the right? I wonder if it will sound like a water is boiling upstairs.
I have several home made tea brewers of the vortex style I use for the 420 operations
Doc
Sent from my SM-N910P using Rollitup mobile app
Ppms have been dropping slightly after he last res change. And ph has jumped up, I lowered it back to 6.0 and its stayed there for a day or so.
I only have enough RO water to run the wash through right now. I'm running the machine to have enough to add the nutrients res change.
Now that I think about it guess the clean ro water could be used for the 24 hour wash I and I would have 24 hrs to fill the back up res again for tomorrow's feeding
So I assume the flush water should be around 5.8-6.2 for this 24hr run?