Total failure

Dr Kynes said:

O-care doesnt change shit for me, i still cant afford the costs, but now they plan on fining me for being too "rich" for "Medi-Cal", but too poor for Blue Cross or Kaiser.

Click to expand...

again, i would guess that you are in the "subsidies" category rather than the "fines" category based on what you have told me about your pay rate and whatnot.

UncleBuck said:

again, i would guess that you are in the "subsidies" category rather than the "fines" category based on what you have told me about your pay rate and whatnot.

Click to expand...

Minor distinctions when most are automatically placed within the belly of the beast.

The point you avoid at all costs.... All people (okay not Congress and other privileged) are in the SAME category...the category of "must obey" or be spanked.

........

One of my many problems with offing Allawaki was that we used the reason that he was inciting terrorism, and we used the Ft. Hood guy as proof. Then why is the Ft. Hood guy still called work place violence costing the families the ability to collect wartime benefits? Seems cheezy. There's no consistency of thought and people applaud it.

Dr Kynes said:

try and get admitted to a hospital without insurance lately? even if you can pay cash, most medical groups want that magic insurance card.

without insurance or indigent care programs everybody else is left with their dicks in their hands. i dont qualify for the indigent medical program (Medi-Cal), and cannot afford insurance coverage, so all i can do is hope i dont get sick.

thats a captive market. you either have the right pass for access or you cannot get in.

O-care doesnt change shit for me, i still cant afford the costs, but now they plan on fining me for being too "rich" for "Medi-Cal", but too poor for Blue Cross or Kaiser.

your demand that i create a system which covers all eventualities is ridiculous since nobody else has come up with one yet either.

theres still only 2 choices national healthcare systems, or insurance/indigent coverage with everybody between poverty and "comfortably well off" being FUCKED.

Click to expand...

Though I sympathize with your personal turmoil over healthcare, I must insist your argument here is only anecdotal and opinionated.

I am not asking you what you think is the current implementation, I am asking what you think would be the ideal healthcare system.

justanotherbozo said:

........

Click to expand...

see4 said:

Though I sympathize with your personal turmoil over healthcare, I must insist your argument here is only anecdotal and opinionated.

I am not asking you what you think is the current implementation, I am asking what you think would be the ideal healthcare system.

Click to expand...

It's multi-step for me. Once we tear down our military, the VAs can be used for the uninsured and have total gov control. I would like to see these schools that are getting so much gov funding open clinics that students must complete so many hours in to graduate. Run and financed by the school with medical tuition fronting the costs. I'd like to see doctors able to prescribe meds made in Canada or Europe that have proven track records. Insurance should never even be considered for a doctor's visit. I'd like the ability to pool resources like O'care does without the middleman for catastrophic insurance. Medical spending accounts should be pre-tax and allowed to use for OTC meds like they were pre-O'care.

More than anything, I want the FDA to either go away, be dramatically reduced and not allow members with big pharma interests to be involved.

These methods would meet the needs of citizens much better than O'care, but would require bipartisan support. We will see more uninsured next year than the year before the bill passed. That's failure.

ginwilly said:

It's multi-step for me. Once we tear down our military, the VAs can be used for the uninsured and have total gov control. I would like to see these schools that are getting so much gov funding open clinics that students must complete so many hours in to graduate. Run and financed by the school with medical tuition fronting the costs. I'd like to see doctors able to prescribe meds made in Canada or Europe that have proven track records. Insurance should never even be considered for a doctor's visit. I'd like the ability to pool resources like O'care does without the middleman for catastrophic insurance. Medical spending accounts should be pre-tax and allowed to use for OTC meds like they were pre-O'care.

More than anything, I want the FDA to either go away, be dramatically reduced and not allow members with big pharma interests to be involved.

These methods would meet the needs of citizens much better than O'care, but would require bipartisan support. We will see more uninsured next year than the year before the bill passed. That's failure.

Click to expand...

See folks, ginwilly was able to provide a tangible answer. Something I can wrap my head around. Though I may not agree with all of his points, at least he is proposing a solution rather than pointing fingers.

When I have free time after work, I will attempt to respond to this. But I will preface with the fact that I like some of the points made.

see4 said:

Though I sympathize with your personal turmoil over healthcare, I must insist your argument here is only anecdotal and opinionated.

I am not asking you what you think is the current implementation, I am asking what you think would be the ideal healthcare system.

Click to expand...

That's like saying which kind of food tastes the best for "everybody" . For the same reasons some people like steak and others chicken, there is no one size fits all system that is "best". The best system is one where providers can enter a given market unmolested by the heavy hand of regulation, then the consumer can purchase or not purchase the "best" one for them. Central planning what other people will do "for themselves" is the same policy prohibitionists use. Why would anybody embrace the playbook of a prohibitionist on a pot website?

Rob Roy said:

That's like saying which kind of food tastes the best for "everybody" . For the same reasons some people like steak and others chicken, there is no one size fits all system that is "best". The best system is one where providers can enter a given market unmolested by the heavy hand of regulation, then the consumer can purchase or not purchase the "best" one for them. Central planning what other people will do "for themselves" is the same policy prohibitionists use. Why would anybody embrace the playbook of a prohibitionist on a pot website?

Click to expand...

And here is where I disagree completely. What completely free market system can you speak to that has NOT tried to take advantage of consumers? Do you suppose that if left completely unregulated, companies would 'do the right thing'? If you think so, you are living in a Utopian fantasy land, and fortunately for us rational folk, your idea of a completely free market will never come true.

re: 'rational folk' - please do not take that as slanderous. I am simply stating that it is not a rational idea to think a Utopian economy is feasible.

see4 said:

And here is where I disagree completely. What completely free market system can you speak to that has NOT tried to take advantage of consumers? Do you suppose that if left completely unregulated, companies would 'do the right thing'? If you think so, you are living in a Utopian fantasy land, and fortunately for us rational folk, your idea of a completely free market will never come true.

re: 'rational folk' - please do not take that as slanderous. I am simply stating that it is not a rational idea to think a Utopian economy is feasible.

Click to expand...

so instead of preying on the select people who don't do their homework and are easily swindled (we call those people Fools), the cons prey on the government which means they prey on ALL of us. Oh nos we just can't have stupid people doing stupid things can we? Oh noes gotta save people from themselves and subsidize the stupid with funds from the prudent.

Having government regulations doesn't stop bad things from happening, especially if the perpetrator is a big corporate lobbying big wig. If the people were in charge bankers would not be able to take advatage of us today, because most of them would have decorated the street light poles after the neck tie party had happened in 2008. The largest and most heinous crimes are ALLOWED to happen by regulators. The largest crimes of all are literally BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM. Government puts lipstick on it and the fools fall for it everytime, they can't help but think that THIS president doesn't lie, he is an Honest Abe. Every time its a shearing for the sheep.

NoDrama said:

so instead of preying on the select people who don't do their homework and are easily swindled (we call those people Fools), the cons prey on the government which means they prey on ALL of us. Oh nos we just can't have stupid people doing stupid things can we? Oh noes gotta save people from themselves and subsidize the stupid with funds from the prudent.

Having government regulations doesn't stop bad things from happening, especially if the perpetrator is a big corporate lobbying big wig. If the people were in charge bankers would not be able to take advatage of us today, because most of them would have decorated the street light poles after the neck tie party had happened in 2008. The largest and most heinous crimes are ALLOWED to happen by regulators. The largest crimes of all are literally BUILT INTO THE SYSTEM. Government puts lipstick on it and the fools fall for it everytime, they can't help but think that THIS president doesn't lie, he is an Honest Abe. Every time its a shearing for the sheep.

Click to expand...

Sounding a bit like a left libertarian there. Actually really sounding like one.

..........

see4 said:

And here is where I disagree completely. What completely free market system can you speak to that has NOT tried to take advantage of consumers? Do you suppose that if left completely unregulated, companies would 'do the right thing'? If you think so, you are living in a Utopian fantasy land, and fortunately for us rational folk, your idea of a completely free market will never come true.

re: 'rational folk' - please do not take that as slanderous. I am simply stating that it is not a rational idea to think a Utopian economy is feasible.

Click to expand...

This is the argument most lefties use and it just doesn't hold water.

Every time government and regulation is used in the same sentence, the left always has to exaggerate.
Most conservative I know want less regulations not NO regulations.

beenthere said:

This is the argument most lefties use and it just doesn't hold water.

Every time government and regulation is used in the same sentence, the left always has to exaggerate.
Most conservative I know want less regulations not NO regulations.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't get it. They rightfully recognize human nature and the need for oversight when it comes to the private sector, but if we want restrictions placed on the public sector we need to move to Somalia. They will fight for a woman's right to choose (i'll fight with you) except when it comes to her health care. Guns get use in a no-gun zone so we need to ban guns... Pretzel logic is fun to observe though, so I don't mind that much.

see4 said:

And here is where I disagree completely. What completely free market system can you speak to that has NOT tried to take advantage of consumers? Do you suppose that if left completely unregulated, companies would 'do the right thing'? If you think so, you are living in a Utopian fantasy land, and fortunately for us rational folk, your idea of a completely free market will never come true.

re: 'rational folk' - please do not take that as slanderous. I am simply stating that it is not a rational idea to think a Utopian economy is feasible.

Click to expand...

I'll try to answer your questions.

Taking advantage of people happens when you force their decisions on them. That's the business model of a monopolistic coercive government. Are YOU incapable of discerning value in the products you like? I bet you are a good shopper that makes intelligent choices that suit YOUR wishes.

In a free market CHOICE expands, in an unfree market it contracts doesn't it? Presented with choices of who you will get your services from, provides the proper feedback for the service provider to be diligent or they risk losing THEIR business to a competitor that better satisfies customers.

Unregulated markets don't operate in a one sided equation. In an unrestricted market, the potential service providers are many , and the potential customers are many also.
In order to prosper, a smart business person gives value, or the customer will go elsewhere. Again, in an unfree (coercive government regulated) market that doesn't happen does it?
I believe that the need for paying customers in the face of competition is incentive for companies to "do the right thing" . Doesn't reputation matter? Of course it does, IF there are options for customers to go to...

Utopian fantasy? No, most of us live in a world where our decisions are restricted, EVEN when they don't impact others. Embracing that seems a little nonsensical and anti-freedom.

Is it utopian to deal with people on a consensual basis, absent force? You think that's impossible? Where do you buy your clothes? Your food? Don't those service providers have to satisfy you or risk losing you to a competitor?

A consensual economy is not only "not UTOPIAN" , (as in unattainable or undesirable) it is the most morally just and benefits consumers the best.

beenthere said:

the left always has to exaggerate.

Click to expand...

ginwilly said:

Guns get use in a no-gun zone so we need to ban guns...

Click to expand...

you dumb fucks.

UncleBuck said:

you dumb fucks.

Click to expand...

if we can't agree to be civil then our society is doomed.



bozo

Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony of a thread named Total Failure and Chezzy's name right under it?

beenthere said:

Is it just me or does anyone else see the irony of a thread named Total Failure and Chezzy's name right under it?

Click to expand...

And hasn't it delivered...