War

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
So a sort range ballistic missile with a nuke is not a strategic nuke. Got it.
Size matters as does the range, but they are two different things, there are intermediate range missiles that carry nukes and American nukes have selectable yields with a maximum yield of 500KT right down to tactical nuke levels. So, what is a tactical nuke when they can have selectable yields? It is a distinction without a difference. How would one tell what kind of warhead would be on a short or intermediate range missile? Trust what Putin says?

Time to target is the biggest factor here and the Ukrainian border is only minutes away from Moscow and the Belarus border is minutes away from European capitals. Likewise with submarine launched intermediate range missiles that can be on target a few minutes after launch. It is the only advantage to placing nukes on the border, to reduce the range and time to target. If Vlad is gonna put nukes in Belarus, what would the targets be? NATO countries and if he is gonna fire one into NATO turf he might as well fire the lot and won't start with a tactical one. Tactical nukes are not very good against modern battlefield tactics where there are no large concentrations of troops, and it opens a pandora's box. NATO is not gonna attack Belarus, but it might fall to internal strife with outside backing and Ukrainian help. Russia proper is coming under attack with territorial incursions and drone strikes on Moscow and still no nukes yet.

I think it is just posturing and no nukes will end up in other countries, if they were used the Russians would get the blame anyway, just as if American nukes stationed in allied countries were used, America would take the heat for it.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
i totally get where you're coming from.
I don't think putin will use anything strategic, unless it's a last ditch effort to save his own ass from his own people.
a large yield bomb will spread radioactive waste along the prevailing winds, which at this time of year at least, looks like it would spread shit all over Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, and parts of russia.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/ua/national/wind-flow
If he used a tactical one, he would be just as fucked IMHO, what he might do is sabotage the nuclear power plant they occupy, but the Ukrainians won't attack it, they will just cut the Russians who are there off and surround them. Putting tactical nukes on the border is a useless gesture that might lead to them being attacked and captured by cross border partisans. The Russians can't even secure their own borders FFS and if the partisans wanted to, they could have captured nukes stationed there that the Russians had to move in a panic when they attacked.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Size matters as does the range, but they are two different things, there are intermediate range missiles that carry nukes and American nukes have selectable yields with a maximum yield of 500KT right down to tactical nuke levels. So, what is a tactical nuke when they can have selectable yields? It is a distinction without a difference. How would one tell what kind of warhead would be on a short or intermediate range missile? Trust what Putin says?

Time to target is the biggest factor here and the Ukrainian border is only minutes away from Moscow and the Belarus border is minutes away from European capitals. Likewise with submarine launched intermediate range missiles that can be on target a few minutes after launch. It is the only advantage to placing nukes on the border, to reduce the range and time to target. If Vlad is gonna put nukes in Belarus, what would the targets be? NATO countries and if he is gonna fire one into NATO turf he might as well fire the lot and won't start with a tactical one. Tactical nukes are not very good against modern battlefield tactics where there are no large concentrations of troops, and it opens a pandora's box. NATO is not gonna attack Belarus, but it might fall to internal strife with outside backing and Ukrainian help. Russia proper is coming under attack with territorial incursions and drone strikes on Moscow and still no nukes yet.

I think it is just posturing and no nukes will end up in other countries, if they were used the Russians would get the blame anyway, just as if American nukes stationed in allied countries were used, America would take the heat for it.
But they still would not be strategic nukes on other countries outside of Russia.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
But they still would not be strategic nukes on other countries outside of Russia.
If a missile was fired from Belarus onto a European city, it would be strategic, no matter what the yield was and the missile need not be intercontinental the nukes of the UK and France don't need to be to reach European Russia where 80% of the population lives Attacking cities is strategic warfare and Russia has been waging it with conventional arms in Ukraine. We are splitting hairs since any use of a nuke would be disastrous and Putin knows it and has not used one yet, even though there have been invasions of Russia by Russian revolutionaries supported and equipped by Ukraine. If any nukes were fired from Belarus, the allies would consider them as used by Russia and the consequences would be the same.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
If a missile was fired from Belarus onto a European city, it would be strategic, no matter what the yield was and the missile need not be intercontinental the nukes of the UK and France don't need to be to reach European Russia where 80% of the population lives Attacking cities is strategic warfare and Russia has been waging it with conventional arms in Ukraine. We are splitting hairs since any use of a nuke would be disastrous and Putin knows it and has not used one yet, even though there have been invasions of Russia by Russian revolutionaries supported and equipped by Ukraine. If any nukes were fired from Belarus, the allies would consider them as used by Russia and the consequences would be the same.
Splitting hairs. You mean I am being factual and you just say whatever you feel like and the details do not mater?


An ex-Russian scholar that generally has some good insight into the Russian mind.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Splitting hairs. You mean I am being factual and you just say whatever you feel like and the details do not mater?


An ex-Russian scholar that generally has some good insight into the Russian mind.

Do the Americans use selectable yield nuclear warheads? I dunno if the Russians do, but it makes the distinction between tactical and strategic moot. The ranges of the missiles need not be intercontinental to be strategic. It is the target that determines if a strike is strategic or tactical, not the size of the warhead and not even the range of the missile or where it is fired from.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Do the Americans use selectable yield nuclear warheads? I dunno if the Russians do, but it makes the distinction between tactical and strategic moot. The ranges of the missiles need not be intercontinental to be strategic. It is the target that determines if a strike is strategic or tactical, not the size of the warhead and not even the range of the missile or where it is fired from.
It is the range of the missile. The difference is extremely important to the US when talking about putting nukes in one of the bordering Russia countries. There may be more concern in Europe about it than in the US as they would feel the effects of them rather than on US soil. So yes, it does matter to the US (and Canada).
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
It is the range of the missile. The difference is extremely important to the US when talking about putting nukes in one of the bordering Russia countries. There may be more concern in Europe about it than in the US as they would feel the effects of them rather than on US soil. So yes, it does matter to the US (and Canada).
It is the target that determines if a nuclear strike is tactical or strategic. I guess Ukraine had better get into the EU pretty quick so they can have some leverage about whether nukes are placed on the borders of Russian and Belarus. Poland and Lithuania should have no issue with NATO nukes on their turf if Russia has them across the border.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
It is the target that determines if a nuclear strike is tactical or strategic. I guess Ukraine had better get into the EU pretty quick so they can have some leverage about whether nukes are placed on the borders of Russian and Belarus. Poland and Lithuania should have no issue with NATO nukes on their turf if Russia has them across the border.
But a tactical will not be able to hit the US.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
But a tactical will not be able to hit the US.
We have an instance here where someone is enamored of a nonstandard definition, and seeks to generalize it through forceful repetition.

From my reading, a strategic nuclear weapon is distinguished by its delivery system: a long-range missile launched from land or sea, or a strategic bomber. Correlation with yield is incidental.

The arms treaties disallow missiles with intermediate range between 500 to 5500 km, making the division plain.

 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
But a tactical will not be able to hit the US.
Unless fired from a Russian sub off the coast or fired from a bomber as they are doing in Ukraine for conventional strategic strikes, but are the hits on cities there really strategic in nature or just terrorism? When the allies bombed the cities in Germany it was strategic, supposedly to hamper war production, transport, destroy infrastructure and C&C. When they were attacking the Ukrainian power grid in a concerted effort it was strategic, in that it had a strategic goal, the current conventional attacks on Kyiv don't appear to have a specific goal or to be particularly effective.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Unless fired from a Russian sub off the coast or fired from a bomber as they are doing in Ukraine for conventional strategic strikes, but are the hits on cities there really strategic in nature or just terrorism? When the allies bombed the cities in Germany it was strategic, supposedly to hamper war production, transport, destroy infrastructure and C&C. When they were attacking the Ukrainian power grid in a concerted effort it was strategic, in that it had a strategic goal, the current conventional attacks on Kyiv don't appear to have a specific goal or to be particularly effective.
Remember, the nukes were to be supplied to the neighbouring countries that bow down to Russia, not put on their subs (which I doubt the satellite countries have). Trying to do a Trump and changing the focus with a sharpie will not work with me.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Remember, the nukes were to be supplied to the neighbouring countries that bow down to Russia, not put on their subs (which I doubt the satellite countries have). Trying to do a Trump and changing the focus with a sharpie will not work with me.
Ok, what if they gave them to Iran, since they are tight as ticks lately, or is it just Belarus they are talking about? I thought the offer was to anybody who wanted to join up. The purpose of the nukes is not tactical, it is a strategic move, and they are useless as tits on a bull for tactical purposes. NATO is a defensive alliance only and cannot attack Russia or anybody else according to their own rules. If America put short range nukes in Ukraine, it would not be for tactical purposes, it would be for strategic ones. There is no need of them for tactical purposes since the Russian army is fucked for a decade and having nukes is not helping Russia in this war, be they tactical or strategic, on long or short range missiles.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
Ok, what if they gave them to Iran, since they are tight as ticks lately, or is it just Belarus they are talking about? I thought the offer was to anybody who wanted to join up. The purpose of the nukes is not tactical, it is a strategic move, and they are useless as tits on a bull for tactical purposes. NATO is a defensive alliance only and cannot attack Russia or anybody else according to their own rules. If America put short range nukes in Ukraine, it would not be for tactical purposes, it would be for strategic ones. There is no need of them for tactical purposes since the Russian army is fucked for a decade and having nukes is not helping Russia in this war, be they tactical or strategic, on long or short range missiles.
The offer was to get Nato's knickers in a knot, as serious as warning that Russia has nukes and red lines. Iran could have had their own nuke by now, it has increased its capabilities incrementally hoping to get The West back to the negotiating table. The West has not bowed down and left them do as they may. Nato is a defensive organization and would attack anyone according to their rules? Ask Iraq, Syria and Libya.
 

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Nato is a defensive organization and would attack anyone according to their rules? Ask Iraq, Syria and Libya.
NATO did not attack those places they did attack Afghanistan though, when America invoked article 5 after 911. Canada did not participate in the second gulf war and neither did a lot of others. All those wars were not NATO affairs and Bush did not dare invoke article 5 over the second gulf war because it was bullshit and the allies knew it.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
The offer was to get Nato's knickers in a knot, as serious as warning that Russia has nukes and red lines. Iran could have had their own nuke by now, it has increased its capabilities incrementally hoping to get The West back to the negotiating table. The West has not bowed down and left them do as they may. Nato is a defensive organization and would attack anyone according to their rules? Ask Iraq, Syria and Libya.
When I heard the offer, Iran briefly came to mind. I doubt Iran would like to become a de facto SSR.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
NATO did not attack those places they did attack Afghanistan though, when America invoked article 5 after 911. Canada did not participate in the second gulf war and neither did a lot of others. All those wars were not NATO affairs and Bush did not dare invoke article 5 over the second gulf war because it was bullshit and the allies knew it.
NATO played a very active supporting role during the first Gulf Crisis and War in 1990-1991
Following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, SHAPE implemented precautionary measures to ensure the security of NATO's Mediterranean members and prevent the spread of tension and conflict.

Such measures included increased coverage of the area by NATO Airborne Early Warning aircraft, deployment of NATO naval forces to deal with any threats to shipping in the Mediterranean, provision of significant logistics and air defence support to Turkey, and the deployment of the Ace Mobile Force (Air) to Turkey in January 1991.

Thus while NATO was not a direct participant in the Gulf War, Allied Command Europe played a major role in supporting those NATO member states threatened by the conflict.

The Libya intervention (2011): neither lawful, nor successful
The intervention in Libya in 2011 was claimed to have been a triumph in two respects: on the one hand the UN Security Council, by passing resolutions 1970 and 1973, had demonstrated its ability to react to humanitarian crises without any of the five permanent members of the council resorting to a veto. On the other hand the concept of humanitarian intervention in its more recent guise of the "responsibility to protect" was seen by some as having finally gained recognition within the international community as a legal concept. More than three years after the intervention it will be argued here that such optimistic claims were premature. It will be shown that the way a coalition of NATO and other states implemented resolution 1973 was not in accordance with that resolution and therefore violated international law. As a direct consequence of this, the Security Council has now reverted to its former paralysis, as Russia and China are, understandably, no longer willing to grant NATO states a mandate for action. This has been most evident in respect of the civil war in Syria. Moreover, developments in Libya since the intervention have done more to discredit the concept of the "responsibility to protect" than any criticism from an international law perspective possibly could.
 
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