What is "True Christianity"?

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
"We inhabit a universe where atoms are made in the centers of stars; where each second a thousand suns are born; where life is sparked by sunlight and lightning in the airs and waters of youthful planets; where the raw material for biological evolution is sometimes made by the explosion of a star halfway across the Milky Way; where a thing as beautiful as a galaxy is formed a hundred billion times - a Cosmos of quasars and quarks, snowflakes and fireflies, where there may be black holes and other universe and extraterrestrial civilizations whose radio messages are at this moment reaching the Earth. How pallid by comparison are the pretensions of superstition and pseudoscience; how important it is for us to pursue and understand science, that characteristically human endeavor. "
~Carl Sagan
 

mistaphuck

Well-Known Member
"We inhabit a universe where atoms are made in the centers of stars; where each second a thousand suns are born; where life is sparked by sunlight and lightning in the airs and waters of youthful planets; where the raw material for biological evolution is sometimes made by the explosion of a star halfway across the Milky Way; where a thing as beautiful as a galaxy is formed a hundred billion times - a Cosmos of quasars and quarks, snowflakes and fireflies, where there may be black holes and other universe and extraterrestrial civilizations whose radio messages are at this moment reaching the Earth. How pallid by comparison are the pretensions of superstition and pseudoscience; how important it is for us to pursue and understand science, that characteristically human endeavor. "
~Carl Sagan
I must spread some more reputation around..
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
"We inhabit a universe where atoms are made in the centers of stars; where each second a thousand suns are born; where life is sparked by sunlight and lightning in the airs and waters of youthful planets; where the raw material for biological evolution is sometimes made by the explosion of a star halfway across the Milky Way; where a thing as beautiful as a galaxy is formed a hundred billion times - a Cosmos of quasars and quarks, snowflakes and fireflies, where there may be black holes and other universe and extraterrestrial civilizations whose radio messages are at this moment reaching the Earth. How pallid by comparison are the pretensions of superstition and pseudoscience; how important it is for us to pursue and understand science, that characteristically human endeavor. "
~Carl Sagan
See, Sagan gets it... I wish more religious people would read his stuff.. When you finally experience something real and understand the stuff he's talking about in this little excerpt the possibilities seem endless...
 

Scrooge

Member
Originally Posted by mindphuk
"We inhabit a universe where atoms are made in the centers of stars; where each second a thousand suns are born; where life is sparked by sunlight and lightning in the airs and waters of youthful planets; where the raw material for biological evolution is sometimes made by the explosion of a star halfway across the Milky Way; where a thing as beautiful as a galaxy is formed a hundred billion times - a Cosmos of quasars and quarks, snowflakes and fireflies, where there may be black holes and other universe and extraterrestrial civilizations whose radio messages are at this moment reaching the Earth. How pallid by comparison are the pretensions of superstition and pseudoscience; how important it is for us to pursue and understand science, that characteristically human endeavor. "
~Carl Sagan
See, Sagan gets it... I wish more religious people would read his stuff.. When you finally experience something real and understand the stuff he's talking about in this little excerpt the possibilities seem endless...g real and understand the stuff he's talking about in this little excerpt the possibilities seem endless...
As a member of the "religious people" that you seem to have a problem with, I can say that I have watched and read Carl Sagan since, probably, before you were born. Why can't a religious person believe in science AND creation? You all seem to think that science and religion are mutually exclusive and cannot exist together.
Personally, I subscribe to the Teleological argument or, has been more recently termed, "intelligent design".

FORGET about organized religion for a while. Go smoke a bowl (or three) and then do a little online research of some of the planet's greatest philosophers:

Metaphysics (Aristotle)
Plato's Timaeus
Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica:

"The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack knowledge, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that they achieve their end, not fortuitously, but designedly. Now whatever lacks knowledge cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is directed by the archer. Therefore, some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God."
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member
As a member of the "religious people" that you seem to have a problem with, I can say that I have watched and read Carl Sagan since, probably, before you were born. Why can't a religious person believe in science AND creation? You all seem to think that science and religion are mutually exclusive and cannot exist together.
Personally, I subscribe to the Teleological argument or, has been more recently termed, "intelligent design".

FORGET about organized religion for a while. Go smoke a bowl (or three) and then do a little online research of some of the planet's greatest philosophers:

Metaphysics (Aristotle)
Plato's Timaeus
Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica:
The teleological argument is not science. Metaphysics is not science. The way ID as defined by the Discovery Institute, contradicts science. They are mutually exclusive. Now religious and spiritual people can believe that a God gave a spark of life or imbued man with a soul, but those are not the claims being made by ID, which is generally, just opposing evolution rather than promote a testable hypothesis of their own. I have to give due props to Behe with his demonstrably incorrect idea of irreducible complexity. At least he had the right idea when proposing some sort of claim even though it turns out to be a very sophisticated argument from ignorance. ID advocates have got to stop trying to disprove evolution and pretend that it is some sort of argument. "Not evolution" is not a legitimate argument. Common ancestry could be disproved tomorrow, I've given examples of how it could be done. But that still doesn't make design any more likely.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
As a member of the "religious people" that you seem to have a problem with, I can say that I have watched and read Carl Sagan since, probably, before you were born. Why can't a religious person believe in science AND creation? You all seem to think that science and religion are mutually exclusive and cannot exist together.
Personally, I subscribe to the Teleological argument or, has been more recently termed, "intelligent design".

FORGET about organized religion for a while. Go smoke a bowl (or three) and then do a little online research of some of the planet's greatest philosophers:

Metaphysics (Aristotle)
Plato's Timaeus
Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica:
If you read the things Carl Sagan wrote, you would already know the answer to that question. He explains science much better than I ever could. Religious belief and science are pretty much exclusive. If that wasn't the case, what would be the use of faith?
 

Scrooge

Member
See, Sagan gets it... I wish more religious people would read his stuff.. When you finally experience something real and understand the stuff he's talking about in this little excerpt the possibilities seem endless...
The teleological argument is not science. Metaphysics is not science. The way ID as defined by the Discovery Institute, contradicts science. They are mutually exclusive. Now religious and spiritual people can believe that a God gave a spark of life or imbued man with a soul, but those are not the claims being made by ID, which is generally, just opposing evolution rather than promote a testable hypothesis of their own. I have to give due props to Behe with his demonstrably incorrect idea of irreducible complexity. At least he had the right idea when proposing some sort of claim even though it turns out to be a very sophisticated argument from ignorance. ID advocates have got to stop trying to disprove evolution and pretend that it is some sort of argument. "Not evolution" is not a legitimate argument. Common ancestry could be disproved tomorrow, I've given examples of how it could be done. But that still doesn't make design any more likely.

Phuk:

You keep referring back to "science" - the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding.

You only want to see what you want to see.

Please tell me where YOUR ignorance is superior to MY ignorance? I fully embrace Natural Selection and have personally witnessed this in the past 30 years. I was a 5’9” 180 pound offensive guard on my high school football team. This year, the same number 64 was 6 foot tall and 230lbs and got an appointment to the US Naval Academy.
 

mindphuk

Well-Known Member




Phuk:

You keep referring back to "science" - the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding.

You only want to see what you want to see.

Please tell me where YOUR ignorance is superior to MY ignorance? I fully embrace Natural Selection and have personally witnessed this in the past 30 years. I was a 5’9” 180 pound offensive guard on my high school football team. This year, the same number 64 was 6 foot tall and 230lbs and got an appointment to the US Naval Academy.
I think you are defining science too broadly

sci·ence


[sahy-uh
ns] –noun
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.


Science is the branch of philosophy that deals with systematic reasoning about observations in the natural world. Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that deals with the immaterial world.
 

budlover13

King Tut
Well, I've been watching and reading this thread for a couple days now and guess I'll throw in my 2 cents, for what they're worth. I must commend all for staying civil. Some people find it hard when it comes to those age old debates of religion and politics.

I was raised in the Nazarene church from my earliest memories. My parents both loved me and, bless them, did what they thought was best for me. I long believed that the Nazarene philosophy was the only way. Well, I grew up. By definition a Christian must believe in the teachings of the Bible and accept Christ as the son of God and accept Him into their life. This takes faith. Something I struggle with because my mind ALWAYS wants an answer as do most I would hope. That's what makes it difficult.

I have seen too many people profess to be Christians, yet act unethically and immorally, with no attempt to change. This bugs me. A lot.:cuss: It is my personal belief that organized religion is used by too many people as either a way to look good in the community, feel better about the bad things they do, or just get money.
That being said, organized religion isn't bad in and of itself. When used as a support group of like-minded people to better yourself and your understanding of the Bible, it's great. When used to provide for those in need and provide services to the community, awesome. When used to do ANYTHING positive to the world, not exclusively for their agenda, :clap:.

When used to justify bigotry, racism, sexism, or ANY form of discrimination, they should be shot.

I personally believe in intelligent design. Maybe because my mind can't fathom the absolute beauty, elegance, complexity and vastness of this universe. I believe in luck and coincidences both, but I just can't fathom the idea that it all came from chaos. From the tiniest particles to the most enormous of galactic spectacles.

I believe that in the end we will all be judged by our creator based on the actions in this world and the condition of our heart. Not enter heaven based on our works, but the overall way in which we lived our life.

I believe in evolution. I think one would have to be blind to see that a bear that lives in the snow has a better chance at survival with white fur rather than dark. Albinos are a fact of life. While polar bears are not true albinos, they did develop white fur after a length of time. Does it not make sense that a person living in the middle of Africa would have darker skin than someone in Europe where the sun is less intense? This belief in evolution is not, however, exclusive of ID. A well thought out plan is adaptable.

Some say that this is an enlightened way of thinking while others say it's delusional. It has to come down to each person. My family mostly says I have fallen for the watered down, mystism of the secular world while my non-religious friends say that I'm an idiot to believe anything other than commonly accepted modern science. It kinda sucks because I'm in a kind of "no-man's land", but I'm personally at peace with my beliefs and in the end, isn't that what matters?

Thoughts?
 

Scrooge

Member
I was raised Roman Catholic which taught me the basics of Faith and Religion. As I progressed in life, I realized that organized religion was a scam yet I retained many of the theological principles taught in Catechism. Many times, the laws of man conflict with the laws of God. I'll give you an example: I fell in love with my wife of almost 20 years - a baptized, Christian woman who was first married to another baptized man. Their marriage ended in divorce due to his alcohol dependency. I was prevented from receiving the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage because the Church recognizes their marriage but not their divorce. I was told that we could marry if she had been married to a Jew or if one of them had never been baptized. I could also petition the Church for an annulment of their marriage (for the cost of $400 back in 1992). I found all of this unacceptable and we were married in a Lutheran church. IMHO, God chose this woman for me as evidenced by our 22 year long relationship (how many couples can say THAT?). HIS law trumps MAN's law.


Organized religion is fine and dandy if you are a child or undereducated. I am a college graduate with 2 degrees and have done extensive research on Faith and have formed my own beliefs over the past 47 years. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. My beliefs are just as valid as the irreligious. It doesn't serve any purpose to debate why one "opinion" is superior to another.


I keep coming back to my Faith that I believe that God, the Almighty, is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. I also believe in Natural Selection, the Big Bang Theory and little green men from other planets. Some Being had to have put this all in motion – be it God, the Big Giant Head or the Spaghetti Monster – whatever you any to believe. The only one mentioned throughout this discussion who truly knows that Truth is Carl Sagan. He's dead and cannot speak.


God Bless!
 

budlover13

King Tut
I had no clue about Carl Sagan. I always viewed him as a completely empirical, black and white, non-creation kind of guy. Brilliant, but unbelieving. I've never really delved into him or his philosophies. I've seen the specials on PBS, Nat Geo, etc, but am limited to what I've seen there. Does he have any personal writings? Autobio or such? Going to search tomorrow. Thank you.
 

Padawanbater2

Well-Known Member
I had no clue about Carl Sagan. I always viewed him as a completely empirical, black and white, non-creation kind of guy. Brilliant, but unbelieving. I've never really delved into him or his philosophies. I've seen the specials on PBS, Nat Geo, etc, but am limited to what I've seen there. Does he have any personal writings? Autobio or such? Going to search tomorrow. Thank you.
He's written a few books, Pale Blue Dot, The Demon Haunted World, Billions and Billions... All awesome reads.
 
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