Why are Americans so afraid of Socialism?

CrackerJax said:

His posts show a basic lack of understanding.

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Again, a claim with no evidence. And I do not think a lack of understanding is a sign of weakness. I do not understand all things and have stated numerous times that I'm here to engage in edifying discourse - to learn, if you will. Am I consistent in my posts? Hell no. I try new theories and adapt to audiences. Consistency is the hobgoblin of a foolish mind.

And ultimately, call me uneducated all you want. I know myself and I have a LOT of formal education at higher tier universities. I've been in academia for years upon years now. I just took a job a prestigious school with a great continental philosophy program. I am VERY secure in my knowledge and very aware of my ignorance. I teach others the knowledge that I have and work on eradicating my ignorance, knowing that I will ultimately die an ignorant person. I try different policies and vote for different politicians. I hang out with republicans, democrats, libertarians, anarchists, socialists, and everything in between. I surround myself with different schools of thought. You, Cracker, surround yourself with like-minded people so that you never have to grow. You never try to see someone else's point, learning from it. Rather, you are only here to demonstrate YOUR knowledge. That's how I know your not an academic. Your as intellectually mature as a little child arguing that your daddy is the strongest of them all. Pathetic. And you're insulting me? Go ahead. I don't care. I have a nice job where I'm recognized for my ability to think clearly and comprehend deeply. It's what I do EVERY DAY! So go ahead - tag team with your other automatons and attack me.

Your posts are the evidence. You have a basic disconnect between socialism on paper and socialism in practice.

So you call yourself a teacher and educated. let's try a little experiment with one of your classes.

Announce to your class that everyone will be getting a C for the semester. No matter how much they strive or how much they goof off, everyone will get a C.

What sort of response do you think you will receive? That's socialism. On paper it can be argued that everyone will eventually get an A, but in practice everyone will get a C.

Try it out....

Rob Roy said:

Well first of all jrh I'm not a little man. Not whiny either. You should reread your posts and mine, it's all right there.
Switching gears in a debate to employ insults is a sign of emotional immaturity. I'm okay with my intelligence level, are you saying disagreeing with you is a sign of stupidity?

Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. Government is force. Like fire it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

When has government ever knocked on my door? Nearly every aspect of your life has an element of government in it.
whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

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Not nearly every aspect Rob Roy. Every aspect. Government intrudes upon us in our homes, in our businesses and in our decisions. It forces us to rationalize our expenses, and our decisions to engage in what should be private decisions such as smoking, drinking and screwing. It taxes our food (through taxation of farmers), our water (through regulation and taxation of utility companies), our tv (through the FCC and its often onerous restrictions of free speech), our thoughts (through the Department of Education), and our leisure time (through directly taxing us and depriving us of any "extra" income we earn through hard work.)

It is a servant who thinks it should be more when it has consistently proven that it can not be trusted with the least amount of responsibility with out trying to usurp more and more power. It has shown that it can do nothing but talk, but when it comes to walking it still stumbles and falls like an infant. It is a history of repeating the same mistakes and not learning from them as is evident in the housing markets (we've been here and done this in the 30s (Hoover was shocked (simply SHOCKED) when house ownership slipped less than .5% leading to the irrational interference in the markets, in the 70s (Jimmy Carter's initial support of CRA) in the 90s (Clinton's support of the same), and in the oughts (Bush's "ownership society".) Generation after generation this nation makes the same stupid mistakes that the last generation made under the feel-good immature policies of socialism.

Instead of being stoic, and understanding the benefits of savings and hardwork so many are spendthrift and careless with their finances. Instead of focusing on addressing the base cause of the problem (the failings of the basic (K - 12) education system) the politicians continue trying to correct the symptoms. If you're doctor told you that he was just going to give you drugs for the fever of a serious bacterial infection instead of anti-biotics would you go back to him again?

No, those that seek to expand government are held down by forced ignorance through the collaboration of the education system that focuses on useless skills that do not have a bearing on reality, namely economics, civics and history. Foreign languages are nice to learn, but they should be learned of an individual's own free will, not because some individual decided that students should be forced to learn them.

The entire system of society is broken, and instead of mending the fabric the government is insisting on rending it further and faster than ever before.

CrackerJax said:

Your posts are the evidence. You have a basic disconnect between socialism on paper and socialism in practice.

So you call yourself a teacher and educated. let's try a little experiment with one of your classes.

Announce to your class that everyone will be getting a C for the semester. No matter how much they strive or how much they goof off, everyone will get a C.

What sort of response do you think you will receive? That's socialism. On paper it can be argued that everyone will eventually get an A, but in practice everyone will get a C.

Try it out....

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what the fuck is so hard for people to understand about socialism in practice? obviously motherfuckers are not gonna work harder so they can get an equal amount. duh. people dont even work hard when they get paid well, how would they work when they get the same as every other lazy mother fucker.

Why are we so afraid of socialism? Probably because this little country in 100 years time grew to be the most prolific, richest, most powerful country on the face of the planet. And we did it all with no socialism.

Everyone talking about how expensive education is, I agree but their are all kinds of opportunities out there. I got the pell grant which is for lower income people and you don't pay it back its a grant. I also got the student loans, so if people really wanted to better themselves there are options all they have to have is the desire. so people quit complaining and do something about it.

To the ultra Libertarians(Rob Roy, TBT): How much tax revenue do you really think we would collect if taxes were voluntary? It sounds nice, but if we cannot afford national defense, police, prisons, roads, and all that good shit....then, well, it does not sound so nice. Would it be worth it if chaos ensued? If crime, poverty and disease skyrocketed, and the standard of living dropped dramatically, would you still be against taxation. Is there no such thing as a necessary evil?

What about war Rob Roy? Are you a pacifist...or do you support the murder of innocent people in the name of national defense?

one of the biggest problems with taxation is that it is done so unfairly and way too much. but part of that problem is that we need the tax money for all these stupid fucking programs that we fund.

CrackerJax said:

Your posts are the evidence. You have a basic disconnect between socialism on paper and socialism in practice.

So you call yourself a teacher and educated. let's try a little experiment with one of your classes.

Announce to your class that everyone will be getting a C for the semester. No matter how much they strive or how much they goof off, everyone will get a C.

What sort of response do you think you will receive? That's socialism. On paper it can be argued that everyone will eventually get an A, but in practice everyone will get a C.

Try it out....

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False analogy.

Unless you add one parameter. Under our current economics, everyone is failing. The average household saved NO money in the last three years, jobs are scarce, the situation is bleak, etc... So if I told the whole class that they had a choice - everyone gets an 'F' (our current economic nightmare) or everyone gets a 'C'. What would they choose then?

OR (to be more fair)

What if I said that, in a class of 100, 15 kids get A's and 85 get F's. OR, everyone gets a C. I wonder what they might pick. I really don't know. But I do know that in America, 15% own 85% and this is unfair. This system came about under our capitalist economy. Maybe socialism will level the playing field. Remember, I am not a 'socialist', but I do think it MIGHT benefit a majority. Perhaps...


And as for taxes, I'm glad to pay them. I get to drive on nice roads, subsidize education, get my trash taken out, have police protection, take my kids to parks, etc...... I also don't mind paying for a helping to hand to all those poor kids born to dead beat, useless mothers and fathers. I do NOT sympathize with the mother or father that much, but I do want to take care of the kids. Does this mindset perpetuate a cycle where women are having kids just so they will get money from the system. Maybe. But it's a necessary evil. And we have to take care of the unemployed because capitalism REQUIRES 3-5% of eligible workers to be unemployed. That's a fact (and you can read it in ANY economics textbook out there). My two cents.

jrh72582 said:

F

And as for taxes, I'm glad to pay them. I get to drive on nice roads, subsidize education, get my trash taken out, have police protection, take my kids to parks, etc...... I also don't mind paying for a helping to hand to all those poor kids born to dead beat, useless mothers and fathers. I do NOT sympathize with the mother or father that much, but I do want to take care of the kids. Does this mindset perpetuate a cycle where women are having kids just so they will get money from the system. Maybe. But it's a necessary evil. And we have to take care of the unemployed because capitalism REQUIRES 3-5% of eligible workers to be unemployed. That's a fact (and you can read it in ANY economics textbook out there). My two cents.

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roads with potholes, bullshit gov. indoctrination schools, police protection= locking up people for victimless crimes.

and you call welfare mothers a necessary evil?

why dont you just pay my taxes for me if your so happy. then you can have your own little mini-socialism. im out of capt. crunch by the way. please send me a box

bgmike8 said:

roads with potholes, bullshit gov. indoctrination schools, police protection= locking up people for victimless crimes.

and you call welfare mothers a necessary evil?

why dont you just pay my taxes for me if your so happy. then you can have your own little mini-socialism. im out of capt. crunch by the way. please send me a box

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My roads don't have potholes. The public schools in my area are great. I now live in a legalized area so the police don't lock up pot smokers. The parks are beautiful. The people are nice and diverse. I love it.

And I will gladly send you a box of captain crunch. What's your address?

cop.

i noticed you translate victimless crimes to pot smookers. like crack smokers dont have rights

bgmike8 said:

cop.

i noticed you translate victimless crimes to pot smookers. like crack smokers dont have rights

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You got me. I'm a cop!

Damn, do you have bad judgment.

hom36rown said:

To the ultra Libertarians(Rob Roy, TBT): How much tax revenue do you really think we would collect if taxes were voluntary? It sounds nice, but if we cannot afford national defense, police, prisons, roads, and all that good shit....then, well, it does not sound so nice. Would it be worth it if chaos ensued? If crime, poverty and disease skyrocketed, and the standard of living dropped dramatically, would you still be against taxation. Is there no such thing as a necessary evil?

What about war Rob Roy? Are you a pacifist...or do you support the murder of innocent people in the name of national defense?

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How much tax revenue would we collect if it were not mandatory? The short answer is never enough for greedy bureaucrats. I'd start by shutting Washington D.C down, the tail is wagging the dog.

I am not a pacifist. I do not believe in initiating aggression against others as a personal philosophy. Your taxes support killing innocent people, I don't.

As far as collecting taxes for national defense. "National defense" is a misnomer it's more like the department of World Domination. Of the world's military expenditures we spend nearly half. That is a budget that could easily be whacked if the USA wasn't so into policing the world. Check your constitution, I don't believe we are even supposed to have a standing army.

Police and prisons? We incarcerate more people percentage wise than any other country. Fewer cops, no prosecutions for victim less crimes and closing a shitload of prisons would reduce costs there. I'm not fond of Police states.

Roads can be maintained by user fees and/or a fuel tax if you must.

You imply if there are no taxes or fewer taxes chaos will ensue. Is it possible crime and poverty could go down if taxes did? Standard of living dropping? When did it become the governments job to ensure a certain standard of living? Is it possible all of the taxes and inflation caused by government cause the standard of living to drop?

I object to forcing someone to pay for something they are not using. I reject the nanny state and embrace freedom of choice to participate or not. If you do participate you should pay, if you don't participate you should be left alone.

jrh72582 said:

I resorted to name calling because I spelled out my point to you five times and you either could not understand it or refused to understand it, arguing with me all the while. I HATE arguing with someone who refuses to even attempt an understanding of his opponent's points.

And then, you made a list of points that I absolutely DO NOT believe, attempting to straw man me. I do not appreciate that. That is the ultimate sign of intellectual immaturity. Anyone with an education knows to NEVER resort to logical fallacy to win arguments (except for lawyers). You do not know that and thus, I assume you are uneducated.

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I DO understand your Tacit Consent point...I just think Tacit consent is a crock of shit that's all. You did say as much that hard work was useless and got people nowhere....Where's the straw man there?

YOU never answered my question that I asked multiple times.
Do you approve of government using force against people that harm nobody?

You assume I am uneducated. Let's not go there. Are you hoping to dazzle me with a list of all your academic accomplishments? Apparently you've been to school a bit, so have I...so what? Lots of people out there smarter than you and me with less education too I bet.

Concerning name calling. I have thick skin, you are forgiven.

bgmike8 said:

cop.

i noticed you translate victimless crimes to pot smookers. like crack smokers dont have rights

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They have rights but are slaves to their choice of drug. Crack is a devils breath and Is the biggest problem we have in America along with crystal meth!

cackpircings said:

They have rights but are slaves to their choice of drug. Crack is a devils breath and Is the biggest problem we have in America along with crystal meth!

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it might be the biggest DRUG problem, but it sure as hell isn't problem #1 as far as the nation goes.

NoDrama said:

it might be the biggest DRUG problem, but it sure as hell isn't problem #1 as far as the nation goes.

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I am talking about it from a internal point of view not to get political or any shit like that. My family was tore apart by the drugs, and I am sure many other people have the same story.

cackpircings said:

I am talking about it from a internal point of view not to get political or any shit like that. My family was tore apart by the drugs, and I am sure many other people have the same story.

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I'm sorry to hear that about your family, but the government does bring in the drugs.