Lighting questions.. Considering LED over hps/mh combo

Where am I

Well-Known Member
Unless your already very experienced and going to bush those out hugely, you will never use a 4 by 4 area for only 4 plants
Interesting comment! I will fill up my 4 x 4 tent with four plants. It actually is tight. I guess it depends on what size you flip your plants. I veg until 18 - 24 inches then I flip them. They will easily go 36 -48 inches.
 

jartlow

Well-Known Member
Sounds like u've mad a great choice. I'm also running their last spectrum the 4500k/630nm and new all 3700k also along with Apache's 6100k/630's. I've been playing with leds for almost six yrs. now and gone thru almost 30 panel of different models and makes from chinese to american. You can't go wrong with the A51's, they're fairly priced, high qualtiy panels that work well though I think those two previously mentioned spectrum stretches a little more than I like since I just started running them 3weeks ago compared to my other spec. panels and T-8's.
Thanks do you have a grow journal I can study from by chance?

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jartlow

Well-Known Member
I use passive intake and carbon filter / fan to exhaust out of a 4 X 4 X 7 tent. I normally run the fan at 1/3 speed. The fan at full speed pulls 425 cfm. This is with four 140 (actual) watt LED panels.
Newb question but by passive you mean it's just a filtered hole that allows air to be pulled in when the exhaust fan is running?

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DCobeen

Well-Known Member
Sounds like u've mad a great choice. I'm also running their last spectrum the 4500k/630nm and new all 3700k also along with Apache's 6100k/630's. I've been playing with leds for almost six yrs. now and gone thru almost 30 panel of different models and makes from chinese to american. You can't go wrong with the A51's, they're fairly priced, high qualtiy panels that work well though I think those two previously mentioned spectrum stretches a little more than I like since I just started running them 3weeks ago compared to my other spec. panels and T-8's.
yes the area51 for the price is a great panel. the only american one i would suggest. they all grow weed its just to keep the costs down. i suggest you start small and grow into it buy 1 area 51 have 4 plants learn them with the led then expand next time.
 

rwbrock

Active Member
Yep passive is just open venting allowing the air to be pulled in from negative pressure caused by the exhaust fan. Active would be adding some type of fan to pull in fresh air. I would think for your system passive would be fine. I had to do an active with my setup when I ran my 400w HPS due to lots of negative pressure caused by exhaust fan...

Good input Where am I, would love to see what you got going with your LEDs!
 

DCobeen

Well-Known Member
okay all its a great read. long but explains why my 3 watt 3000k led grows my plants so nice.
[h=2]LEDs, spectrum and PAR[/h]
Whats the best spectrum for cannabis plant growth and flower?
Most indoor gardeners are now aware of the importance of PAR with regards to good vegetative growth and flower, but I'll just run through the basics for people new to the topic.

PAR: = Photosynthetically active radiation and is a measurement of the spectral range of solar radiation. White light is composed of all the different colours combined, and PAR names where these colours are:

e.g. purple / blue starts at 400nm and it runs through green, yellow, orange up to deep red at 700nm.

The band that we are interested in runs from 400nm to 700nm (nanometres), although there are elements outside this range (see below)

We know that plants absorb energy through sunshine, and convert this through the process of photosynthesis into chemical energies that they use for cell growth. Scientific analysis of this process with reference to PAR shows that not all light is equally useful to the plant. The graph below shows higher rates of PAR at different nanometres:



As you can see chlorophyll absorption is twice as much at 460nm as it is at 660nm. The plant uses the blue light during vegetative growth and the red light during flower. It also hardly absorbs any green light at all, but instead reflects it (which is why plants are green). But because it is twice as efficient at absorbing the blue light as the red, initial pioneers of LED grow lights used a straight 2 spectrum light (usually 460nm and 640nm) with a 2 red: 1 blue ratio.

(and this is the basic spectrum provided by wholesale manufacturers of LED grow lights)

The two spectrum light works fine for simple crops (salads and herbs for example) but is not sufficient for complex, photophilous plants like marijuana. Second generation LED grow lights added LEDs pinpointed at all 4 spectrum peaks, 439nm, 469nm, 642nm and 667nm. Suddenly LED grow lights began to be taken seriously by indoor cannabis growers worldwide as the combination of minimum heat production and sufficient yields started to work in grow journals posted online.



But there is a type of indoor cannabis grower that is always striving for perfection and maximum yield. For this grower (and they are almost always male!), it is not enough to produce an adequate crop with minimum investment. For him the indoor grow room is a chance to create the absolute optimum conditions for major resin production. These guys follow the scientific journals avidly and have had major impact on the structure of spectrum analysis for LED grow lights and design.

Further analysis of plant PAR reveals peaks of absorption like this:
Chlorophyll A 430, 662
Chlorophyll B 453, 642
Chlorophyll C1 442, 630
Chlorophyll C2 444, 630
Chlorophyll D 401, 455, 696
Chlorophyll F 720
Beta Carotene 450,482
Phycoerthrin 495, 545, 566
Phycocyanin 620
Allophycocaynin 650
Fluorescein 494​
Which follows that a LED grow light should contain LEDs at the following nm:

400, 430, 445, 450, 455, 500, 545, 565 (for growth)
620, 630, 640, 660, 700, 720.

And about a year ago many full spectrum LED grow lights on the market began to appear following these principles. The problem with a full spectrum LED comes down to ratios. In order to configure the number of LEDs at so many distinctive points on the spectrum, the ratio of red elements to blues became reduced. In our opinion these full spectrum lights were great for producing healthy vegetative growth with minimum signs of stress to the cannabis plants, but during flowering bud production was slower.


So what spectrum does Fero recommend?

Last year Fero Canada went into partnership with Area 51 for the development of the AF-600. Atypical of the science guy who wants absolute excellence in his quest for the perfect LED grow light, Area 51 have been researching, testing and developing a spectrum ratio for maximum cannabis potential that we think is unparalleled. (at least of the ratios we have tested so far!)

The 5:9:1 spectrum used for the original AF-600 followed research done by Kevin Cope for the University of Utah & the International Space Station, into the use of LEDs for growing crops in outer space. Obviously in such an environment, the research is looking at maximising yield of all types of fruits and vegetables with minimum resources.


1:The tough outer skin (the “herd”) which protects the soft tissue within, and minimizes water loss
2:In the cambium layer, cells divide and diversify to create vascular bundles of transporting tissues and increase stem girth.
3:Vascular bundles of cells carrying water and mineral salts (xylem) or manufactured food (the phloem) from the leaves to all parts of the plant.
4: The pith is a connecting matrix for other tissues.

One premise of the 5:9:1 spectrum is that enhanced vegetative growth will ultimately lead to increased bud production. A larger dry plant mass that is the result of thicker stems and more foliage inevitably means amplified cellular activity in the cambium layer i.e. more vascular cells transporting water, nutrients and xylem upwards when the cannabis plant is in flower. Just as a city is only as efficient as the transport system enabling its workers to get to work, produce goods and distribute them so a plant is only as efficient as the cellular network distributing nutrients to where they can be used.


What the award winning research done for the ISS found was that whilst both blue and red spectrum light was necessary for photosynthesis, other colours were also important because they penetrated through the canopy (ie were not absorbed by the upper leaves) and were used by the plant lower down. This led to a series of experiments investigating the optimum means of providing plants with the necessary spectra for increased vegetative growth.

One conclusion was that the best way to cover all the varied points of blue nm necessary for this enhanced vegetative growth was to study the results of white light (which contains all the spectral range).

"White LEDs exceed the efficiency of fluorescent lights but have a comparable broad spectrum. As such, they have the potential to replace fluorescent lighting for growth-chamber-based crop production both on Earth and in space"


Experiments were run testing 3 white LED types: cool, neutral and warm, and also more traditional red:blue and red:green:blue combinations:


The study found that:
1. Blue light had a significant effect on both plant growth (dry mass gain) and development (dry mass partitioning)
2. Increasing the absolute amount of blue light (μmol m-2 s-1) led to shorter stems (less stem elongation)
3. Increasing the relative amount (%) of blue light caused a decrease in specific leaf area (leaf area per unit leaf mass) ie leaves were thicker (with increased vascular layers).
4 As the relative amount of blue was increased, chlorophyll concentration per leaf area increased, but remained constant with regard to leaf mass.
ie. The leaves were thicker because they contained more chlorophyll (essential for plant development)​
In summary - more blue light avoids stem stretching, whilst at the same time increasing the vascular capabilities of the plant.

BUT what the comparison of the 3 different whites with the RB & RGB showed, was that

"Overall, white LEDs provided a more uniform spectral distribution, reduced stem elongation and leaf area, and maintained or increased dry mass as compared to RB and RGB LEDs. [best of all spectra tested were] Cool white LEDs [which] are more electrically efficient .. and have sufficient blue light for normal plant growth and development at both high and low light intensities"

Put simply: The use of cool whites covers those nanometres NOT covered by the blue LEDs and helps supercharge the plant's abilities to absorb chlorophyll and photosynthesise. Like supercropping, light emitted by cool whites increases the plants vascular highway.

This is an almost revolutionary development in the theory behind why LEDs can be used to grow better bud.

There is a technical issue with the cool white LEDs: the configuration of them puts more demands on a traditional LED grow light set up than the blues and reds we're becoming used to seeing. Area 51 are taking the grow light back to the drawing board and redesigning every element of its set up in order to use a large ratio of cool white:red (with no blue), and it will be exciting to see how this pans out. But such improvements come with a cost, and for the Bulldog range of LED grow lights, we are sticking with a 5:9:1 ratio that consists of

2 x 6500k (cool white) , 1 x 430nm, 2 x 455nm (blues) : 9 red: (1 x 630nm, 4 x 640nm, 3 x 660nm): 1 infrared (730nm).



Reds for flower
The Cope research admits that whilst cool white LEDs have sufficient blue light for normal plant growth and development at both high and low light intensities, compared to sunlight, they are deficient in red light and may therefore benefit from supplementation with red LEDs. Our red proportion of the spectrum ratio therefore includes elements focused on energysing chlorphyll A, B, C & D as well as Phycocyanin & Allophycocaynin. The "deep red" is particularly useful to heavy resin production.

Why the infrared?
The Emerson Effect was observed using wavelengths of 630, 660, and 730. This is a study that is cited in nearly all modern plant growth studies that relate to the use of specific wavelength of red light and the interaction with far red and infrared.
Emerson ran a series of experiments back in the 60s where he exposed plants to lights at different wavelengths. The conclusion known as the Emerson effect was that there are two different photosystems (PS1 & PS2) involved in photosynthesis, which combine to enhance efficiency:

With PS1 and PS2 in play,

The light excites the chlorophyll molecules at the reaction centre and causes an increase in energy. As the molecule becomes less excited, its energy is transported through a chain of electron carriers to the next photosystem which does much the same thing and produces energy-carrying organic molecules.

The best way to achieve the Emerson effect is by using an infrared (or nearfarred) wavelength of above 700nm in order to accelerate the interaction of molecular energy especially with the reds and deep reds: thus bumping up bud production.

Phew! And congratulations to anyone that's made it this far ..

To sum up:

The Fero spectrum which we use in the Bulldog is the result of close following of scientific research aimed at maximising yield whilst benefiting from LED grow light's other plus points (heat control, low energy consumption etc) . Its actually part of a quest to show that LEDs can grow weed better than HPS (although we're not there .. YET :cough:)

The 5:9:1 is a compromise of sorts in that it follows the research while maintaining a level of production costs within most LED grow light buyer's budgets. The reason why the AF-600 had to be pulled from production was that simply it cost too much to make to be affordable unless it was priced at the Stealthgrow level: and that's a price too high for many of us.

How does it translate in real life?
The difference is almost intangible and without doing a side by side with a controlled environment, independently tested, impossible to prove. But we have done cannabis grows using this spectrum next door to a traditional LED spectrum set up and the difference was marked.

Stems were thicker, leaves looked more vibrant, the plants were healthier, the bud production bigger. To really sum up: the plants were LUSH.
 

jartlow

Well-Known Member
Yep passive is just open venting allowing the air to be pulled in from negative pressure caused by the exhaust fan. Active would be adding some type of fan to pull in fresh air. I would think for your system passive would be fine. I had to do an active with my setup when I ran my 400w HPS due to lots of negative pressure caused by exhaust fan...

Good input Where am I, would love to see what you got going with your LEDs!
I'll be ordering mine on the 21st!

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prosperian

Well-Known Member
Bottom line, if you're not growing with it and haven't posted pics of your LED grow, stop wasting everybody's time. This is all you have for LEDs DCobeen?

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and trust what you have to say, but do you own the panels you are suggesting others to use? Do you have pictures of these panels you are using or a grow journal? Just trying to understand where your advice is coming from and how we should use it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I think advice on what to purchase should come those that are using the products and companies, don't you?

 

DCobeen

Well-Known Member
Bottom line, if you're not growing with it and haven't posted pics of your LED grow, stop wasting everybody's time. This is all you have for LEDs DCobeen?

I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt and trust what you have to say, but do you own the panels you are suggesting others to use? Do you have pictures of these panels you are using or a grow journal? Just trying to understand where your advice is coming from and how we should use it.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I think advice on what to purchase should come those that are using the products and companies, don't you?

no i have a ufo but its more for flower. when i flip them ill ahve the 180 watt ufo in play also. i got a good deal on the ufo. someone ordered it returned it so was never out of box but they couldnt sell as new i paid $95 and its worth $200 its not the best light but puts out 112 true watts so with my 60 watts already that will be 172 watts and ill add 100 watts or more of cfl on side lighting also. i know its a small setup but will see what i get and in may/june ill buy a big boy light and a tent.
the lights ive talked about ive seen several grows with them. they can grow. but you all are convincing me i should go with area51 and now area 51 says colored led is junk white can do the whole spectrum so now im stuck in limble.
 

prosperian

Well-Known Member
no i have a ufo but its more for flower. i know its a small setup but will see what i get and in may/june ill buy a big boy light and a tent.
the lights ive talked about ive seen several grows with them. they can grow.
Hey between you and me and the rest the world, whatever works. I didn't want to call you out on this. You seem very knowledgeable on what you have researched. But these guys are throwing hard cash at gear and the last thing I'm going to do is take them down a path that I haven't personally been down before.

And your point is well taken, you can grow great plants without having to spend A51 money, freaky expensive, I know. There are many RIU members that can build these panels for much less money. And of course, there are good cheap panels out there among the bad.

I chose not to invest in the knowledge of building my own, but instead paid a premium for the end product ready to go out of the box. For me LED is like a tool. It does a job. It does it well and that's good enough for me.

I hope you have a successful grow! :leaf::leaf::leaf::leaf::leaf:
 

DCobeen

Well-Known Member
yes i agree. and now im not sure i might jsut keep what i got till area 51 gets the all white panel out on the market. they are doing huge research, which impressed me. even nasa is involved. so i might buy the cheap lg=led knowing ill use it for a year max. this harvest in 3 months will let me know which way ill go. Ill see as time goes on. right now my focus is to keep these plants happy till harvest. hey question have you ever done the 10 day dark period?
 

prosperian

Well-Known Member
hey question have you ever done the 10 day dark period?
No, I have not performed a dark period before harvest. I read the article Stew linked up earlier. IMO, it doesn't really hold water.

I think any benefit realized is from novice growers that chop too early anyway. The extra week and half gives the plant time to ripen in the pot and the benefits are attributed to the dark.

Again, I haven't done it myself, but a properly harvested plant needs no time in the dark from my experience. I harvest when my schedule dictates, morning, afternoon, evening. Plant doesn't care when, it's a plant, trichs are already in place and ripe.
 

DCobeen

Well-Known Member
im gonna use my smallest plant from upcoming harvest to try it. i know i have done 2 days when i grew outside but that was chopping it down and hanging upside down in the dark it helped make a little more sticky. i have not done a plant in dark yet, ive read several posts here and on other sights saying it does same thing makes it stickier and such. so ill put all in for 2 days pull all out but 1 and let it go and see the diff. ill have gree light so if it starts going funny ill pull it.
 

Where am I

Well-Known Member
Newb question but by passive you mean it's just a filtered hole that allows air to be pulled in when the exhaust fan is running?

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JL,

What I mean by passive is my carbon filter is mounted in the top of the tent. I then run a duct hose out of the tent to the inline fan which is mounted to the wall. I then duct that air out of the room the tent is in. My tent has small screened vents on it. I have built light boxes that attach to those screen vents. My vents are always open but no light gets in to the tent. As the carbon filter pulls air (odor) from the tent fresh air is drawn from the bottom of the tent through the vents. Using a fan speed controller it give me the ability to regulate the temperature in the tent. With LED lights I usually don't run my fan more than 1/3 - 1/2 its rated speed.
 

jartlow

Well-Known Member
JL,

What I mean by passive is my carbon filter is mounted in the top of the tent. I then run a duct hose out of the tent to the inline fan which is mounted to the wall. I then duct that air out of the room the tent is in. My tent has small screened vents on it. I have built light boxes that attach to those screen vents. My vents are always open but no light gets in to the tent. As the carbon filter pulls air (odor) from the tent fresh air is drawn from the bottom of the tent through the vents. Using a fan speed controller it give me the ability to regulate the temperature in the tent. With LED lights I usually don't run my fan more than 1/3 - 1/2 its rated speed.
Right on! I'm definitely going to need a fan controller

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monkeychief

Well-Known Member
Thanks do you have a grow journal I can study from by chance?

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Unfortunately no. cause I've been doing it so long my journals' in my head. Like most people I got interested in leds cause I was looking for a more efficient alternative source of lighting for my girls. The problem was when I started to play with leds is the tech. was still in it's infancy stage for the grow light application. I started with the red/blue spec. consisting of either the 440/630 ir 470/660 combo's that were worthless. They then found out by using additional bands like orange, whites(full-spectrum), green(originally they told us no green needed, all reflected), UV(resin, pest, immune), far-red to IR(emerson, triggering sleep cycle). By the way, the super secre Blackdog 15 ban spec. is the biggest "snake oil" marketing tactic currently in the market and their justification for the ridiculous sticker price. I own 2 Blackdog BD700-U panels, they work very well in fact the best out of all the ones I've tried so far because it puts out an actual 660w as this is what I feel is the absolute minimum if u want to get yield and density that's comparable to the HPS, otherwise you're gonna be the bad statistic that the HID's guy are relying on to prolong their reign. But even at this wattage the outer 4ft. edges were the airy, cotton all buds similar to the inner and lower buds. Fact is most of the red dominated red spectrum offered on the market now are pretty much compatible because it's been tweaked and tuned since the birth of the led grow light. As long as you stick with the reputable brands going with their factory red spec will suit your application just fine for veg/bloom in favor of blooming. You can veg., but it's like using an HPS. Just when we think we got a semi-grasp on the sit., they go back and realize there's something to why Apache, who opted to go the cool-whites route. Apache incidentally has not revised their spectrum since it's introduction for four yrs. now. A51 was the second company to pursue the white spec. with their day-whites(4500k), (630nm) spec. The have since changed again to an all warm-whites spec. for this year. I've use a lot of these red spec. in different configs. and sizes, found most of the current ones to work quite well in terms of yield as long as enough power is behind it. I feel the industry as a whole has got the red spec. figured out to a point the difference is just academic and not practical and noticeable in real life app. You also have to take into consideration that IT-intellectual property such as spec. combo's will very difficult to protect and litigate. I mean all they had to do is change a single chip to change the ratio and that's not going to affect the spec. much but yet legitimize it.


Now on to the white dominated spec. There's Apache(the original white spec. guys), A51 who is tweaking the different whites to be be canna-specific, and new copy cats like Super Grow which is An A51 spec. in a different platform. Interesting how A51 and Fero worked with Fero on their spec and yet chose move into the direction of using predominately whites with supplemental reds to going all warm-whites now on their lastest and current model. After veggin las 3 weeks i can tell u they designed this in favor of blooming naturally since that's our priority but will stretch since the spec. is similar to HPS.

In my experience u need at least half of the wattage of HID's to get comparable results in quality and density, but will have to ante up the wattage to at least 75 percent to close the yield issue. Yes, u can cover a 3x3 with one of these 190w A51 panel and get good results, but don't expect to pull no 2lbs per 4x4 like an 1HPS can. Truth the matter is most average HPS growers are only averaging .5/w, and that's already obtainable with relative ease with leds but you have to keep in mind the relationship to dramatically power usage difference between. But in terms of max. yield per square footage, you will have to ante up the led wattage to at least 75% of the HID's to even consider entertaining the idea. As far as the g/w goal, that has been done by many using the high-density small size plants that will require very little penetration ideal for the application of leds. This is especially true when u start talking bout multi-level, high-density sog type systems similar to just search youtube for Danny Danko clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVNxNVnkBPE . I feel that this is the best application for this type of technology and will yield very high numbers in terms of production per given footprint granted if u have enough headroom allowance.
 

monkeychief

Well-Known Member
yes the area51 for the price is a great panel. the only american one i would suggest. they all grow weed its just to keep the costs down. i suggest you start small and grow into it buy 1 area 51 have 4 plants learn them with the led then expand next time.

You are absolutely corect in terms of cost effectiveness but I feel the Apache is a better panel. It's spec. is closer to the chlorophyll a/b par peaks and natural sunlight than the A51's, which is more similar to the HPS.

You can go brand-name or u can go and get a comparable panel with the same spec. for a fraction of the price directly from the manufacturer. The advantage about high-end leds like Cree and Osram leds is another bs marketing tactic. The truth matter is many of these alibaba manufacturers also offer Cree and premium chips. On average for a 3w chip, it's about an extra dollar per chip. I feel these premium chip are overrated as the difference in price in relation to the difference in performance are not proportionate. Fact the difference is purely academic because I don't think the girls are going to be able to tell the difference. If Cree was so much better and efficient then how come A51 can only get a little over 2w out of their 5w Cree's? I have panels that are running Epstars and Bridgelux for 3yrs. now that are still cranking along. "Caveat emptor.

There's no point on paying someone to sell u their knowledge and experience when you can invest a little time and effort to gain both yourself and save your money. This is especially true since a lot of this info is only a keystroke away.
 

DCobeen

Well-Known Member
You are absolutely corect in terms of cost effectiveness but I feel the Apache is a better panel. It's spec. is closer to the chlorophyll a/b par peaks and natural sunlight than the A51's, which is more similar to the HPS.

You can go brand-name or u can go and get a comparable panel with the same spec. for a fraction of the price directly from the manufacturer. The advantage about high-end leds like Cree and Osram leds is another bs marketing tactic. The truth matter is many of these alibaba manufacturers also offer Cree and premium chips. On average for a 3w chip, it's about an extra dollar per chip. I feel these premium chip are overrated as the difference in price in relation to the difference in performance are not proportionate. Fact the difference is purely academic because I don't think the girls are going to be able to tell the difference. If Cree was so much better and efficient then how come A51 can only get a little over 2w out of their 5w Cree's? I have panels that are running Epstars and Bridgelux for 3yrs. now that are still cranking along. "Caveat emptor.

There's no point on paying someone to sell u their knowledge and experience when you can invest a little time and effort to gain both yourself and save your money. This is especially true since a lot of this info is only a keystroke away.
i agree 100%. now area51 says color led is not good enough. the only way to cover the whole light spectrum is with white leds in diff lvl's like 10000k 7000k 5000k 3000k 2700k. they foudn thi sout working with NASA and Canadians. the even said they are using the lights they are because it partially covers the spectrum and will grow plants. so if you are thinking about an led espcially from area 51 wait till they come out with the all white panel and save up money they will cost an arm and leg i bet. so for now either buy cheap with good led spectrum or wait. since led is gonna change again in the next year big time.
 
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