gunnar&carey
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Beautiful man, hell ya
Sativied's Picture Journal
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bf80255
Well-Known Member
I'm rather surprised with their uniformity so far honestly, which is why I don't want to move forward to F4 without growing more F3. There's some variation between the lines but I think a beginner would - at this point - only recognize two 'phenos'. Too soon to tell of course but I'm genuinely surprised.
I cannot tell the Swan's offspring apart except for a slight variation in smell (dank dark pine vs light fruity pine) and size (some age difference so means little). I think they will yield less or need longer than the others. Not ideal either way for my goals. Also not too happy with the S males.
I've only flowered four of the #19 and #4 line, 2 males and 2 females each. The plants from #4 are nearly identical, BUT are a selection from 8 or so initially so doesn't mean anything. I'm vegging 11 of line #4 now to get a better look.
#19 line is a special case, it's based on a female that had nutrient issues during/after transition. Nothing major but was in my tubes and that never happened before. She was however also the frostiest and fastest flowering. Her offspring was the first to tell me Canna Terra contains no Ca, but are now the healthiest green and frostiest.
Except for the swan itself, but she's over 6 months old so very mature.
The reason I'm going to check out line #4 more first is because I think it will be for several reasons a better partner for the hybrid I want to create.
Good chance that in a few weeks I'll change my mind again once I get a better idea of bud structure.
wise move, patience really pays
which 2 phenos would that be? (gross anatomical breakdown of flowers and veg)
I thought you really wanted that dark dank pine?
I do like that cross of the F2 19 a lot, nice resin coverage.
Swans look good IMO what didnt you like about them?
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Nope, the problem with the pine from the chunk was that it's too dark. I don't have those in the F3 anymore, it's more "weird pine sour" vs "light pine" now. That light almost fruity/sweet one is #4, which is from that one plant in the F2 that had the sweet bud. The "weird pine sour" is interesting though and I look forward to tasting it, if that smell actually translated to taste that is...
I was referring to the slightly shorter wider leaflets in line #4, apart from that it's all frosty cannabis, for "a beginner". Topping them all to 4 branches obviously helped them keep uniform during veg.
Well not like is relatively, and it's the males specifically, not the right combination of traits and enough of candidates for a proper back cross to swan. I just liked both #4 and one from #19 more even though I had less of those.
The point of flowering a few from #4 and #19 was to see if I missed out on something going for the S line. #4 for taste, #19 for frost. I have several reasons (genotype guesstimates of desired traits) to believe #4 needs less work to be a suitable P1 for my F1 and I can possibly pick multiple plants from F3 that are not just the most frosty, best and fastest yielders but also have the desired traits (genotypes) that help me stabilize it further. Instead of choosing between the two (reminds me of one our early pms). Qualitative traits firsts, then quantitative. And the more plants and the less generations I can use to achieve the former, the more I can get out of the latter. Not that the current #4 plants aren't frosty enough and it's still early, but I think I can find a few more just like it.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
These are swan offspring:
The Swan females have a similar bud structure so far except that the second above is slightly fatter, or faster, than the rest.
The combination of the soil I use and canna terra isn't working out as well as I hoped and not sure how much that's skews the results. I can't keep all pots optimal and that skews the comparisons either way. I'm going to flower those new #4 I popped in soil again, but organic premixed (different than last run), but after that it's back to hydro asap... Since I will reselect from F3 either way I may even cramp these together in a small tent so I can build my new hydro setup directly inside the flower closet.
The Swan females have a similar bud structure so far except that the second above is slightly fatter, or faster, than the rest.
The combination of the soil I use and canna terra isn't working out as well as I hoped and not sure how much that's skews the results. I can't keep all pots optimal and that skews the comparisons either way. I'm going to flower those new #4 I popped in soil again, but organic premixed (different than last run), but after that it's back to hydro asap... Since I will reselect from F3 either way I may even cramp these together in a small tent so I can build my new hydro setup directly inside the flower closet.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Late clone from one of the #4 worked out nicely... Now if I only knew which one of the two it is (wiped the label off...). I can tell for sure later. Topping them neatly didn't leave a lot of branching to take clones and wasn't planning on taking any (not the right gen to do so, not looking for keeper phenos atm). Either way, nice to see how easy it clones. Just stuck it in soil.
Here's one of the new #4 batch, they looks very very similar at the moment. Going to pot them up soon and put them (a row of 10) in the flower closet. Got some new premixed organic soil used for growing veggies, fruits and herb which I will use (currently still in the same light mix as current and previous run and just get water).
Here's one of the new #4 batch, they looks very very similar at the moment. Going to pot them up soon and put them (a row of 10) in the flower closet. Got some new premixed organic soil used for growing veggies, fruits and herb which I will use (currently still in the same light mix as current and previous run and just get water).
thenotsoesoteric
Well-Known Member
Are these those chunk genetics or something else? I know you've been working these for a minute now and I forgot what lineage the were. Cheers and looking good. Got some good information floating around this thread, too bad everyone is stuck on chuckers nuts and not doing more line working like this.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Thanks man. I frankly think people are missing out making new crosses rather than sticking with one. It's easier with peas but with a little effort ones can really "experience" breeding. As I mentioned a couple of times in this thread, for me it's all about the process. If the results of that turn out great that's just a bonus.
Yes these are Chunk x Cannalope Haze. I still call it P. Figured I give it a letter instead of a name as it's just a work in progress.
Let me just ramble a bit... fun reminiscing after 16 months.
The Chunk is possibly pineapple chunk from barney's or even a cross there of. I received them indirectly from a grower who doesn't know I grow. He doesn't actually grow himself besides watering but provides space in his garage to a 'bread grower' (sells to shops). It's a guess mainly based on the name chunk and the smell. Which doesn't make me think of pineapple but more of pine. I kind of rather giving a 'probable' credit than nothing at all. I posted at grasscity once: "Next up is the chunk, which is supposedly an F2 of a cheesy skunk strain." That was a guess and while the F2 is possible it's not cheesy. The one thing that doesn't fit is that the grow they came from contained full blown males. Probably how I came up with the F2.
The main traits I use from that one is the taste and yield and vigor (love the lush green). The work largely involves breeding out undesired traits (tall hollow stems, too dark-pungent) from the chunk out my cross and end up with something more like the CH. If the goal was just a uniform cross I'd be backcrossing.
The CH is according to icmag and thcfarmer a C99 knockoff instead of the claimed Mex Sativa x O haze (it's an 8 weker with a hazy pheno and one that looks very much like c99).
In hindsight I would have looked for better starting points. Not necessarily better genetics but more suitable for my purposes. The original goal was chunk x cannalope haze, inspired by chocolate fondue, which is chocolope x uk cheese (choco is cannalope haze x thai choco). But, the chunk didn't turn out to be a CHeesy skUNK, and the cannalope haze is not-so-hazy. What I'm basically trying to do now is creating a replacement for the chunk myself, specifically a replacement for P1 of my future hybrid. P2 is going to be a better haze than Cannalope Haze (probably silver or super silver).
I think I ended up doing what I should be doing in the first place. Breed in before breeding out instead of breeding out before breeding in... unless it's for more than a few generations to create something to breed out to something else that has been bred in (or at least is homozygous). Sure there are other ways to breed properly (like backcrossing a homozygous plant from F2 to the original parent) but I think this is the way to go when it comes to real F1 hybrids. It goes for most veggies, fruits and even animals we eat, pretty sure it goes for cannabis too. That pretty sure is a major understatement but easier said than done.
The previous round was CHxCH (and some accidental ICE xCH in the mix) which was all about the whorled phyllotaxy trait. The P line is 'not'. I noticed some whorling in buds and the latest clone of the swan seems to be a tri but is a reveg and there are no whorlers in F3.
A picture of the original chunk mom:
Note the waxy layer. Was in all F1 and F2 too.
Chunk 3 is the original mom of P, should be obvious why I picked that one lol (that one was already 2 feet tall. The others were nuts.
The moms of the other crosses are in it too.
It don't have a decent pic of the mom in flower... I probably do on a flash card somewhere. Only downside it had was clawing (not something she passed on) and being a little hairy.
The male was the cannalope haze with whorled phyllotaxy. I used it on cannalope haze and 3 others, the chunk, late night (a chuck made with tiresias mist based on chocolate fondue), and ICE (7 year old seeds I had in fridge). All to generate variety, scramble up those sentences (inside joke?
) and make something stable from that again.
The result varies across plants and generations of course but here's the product of one of their grandchildren, the swan:
It has a more hazy-sativa structure than the chunk yet is very easy to trim and dried results in compact but not too dense nuggets. Crumbles as smooth as it smokes.
Yields like the chunk, strong effect... everyone says that about their cross lol and I don't know if it has high cannabinoid levels but it has the strong effect of the CH with the punch of the chunk. That's not exactly the initial goal of the P cross (day time smoke) but suits its new purpose of being the P1 for the eventual hybrid. I doubt it will come out looking as good again being in a small soil pot for a very long time (I basically flowered the mom and took new clones) but I do look forward to having some bud of it again, especially to compare to the F3.
The main downside of Swan (which is #22 from F2) is that the taste is not as distinct as in for example the F3 including it's own offspring. I picked a dominant F2 male specifically for that reason. One I guesstimate has more of the taste genes of the original chunk recombined and not a heterozygous mix like in the F1. In short I'm pretty sure, kinda known, the swan-line is more heterozygous for taste. While the #4 and #19 are likely more homozygous because the female parents of those lines also had the more distinct pine like the male. With the difference that #4 seems sweeter/fruitier/lighter. I'm growing out these #4 first but #19 is not out of the running yet. Swan line neither, but I figured last run I can stabilize taste in future generations. The whole point of running more of the #4 and possibly #19 line is to see if that may not be necessary or at least less of a gamble with those.
So far, besides a few obvious grower-errors, all my seeds still have 100% germination rate. Also the ones I made over a year ago. I do however like the idea of letting those seeds dry a little so after running #4 again I'm going to run a haze before running #19 or P-F4. I don't know when I will cross the two. I don't actually need P to be a homozygous line, just need to find homozygous plants. Obviously easier from a homozygous line, but after several generations and lines it becomes easier to gauge which plants are homozygous for certain traits. At some point I may just create 3 different F1 lines (P x a haze) and see if any represents the initial goal.
thenotsoesoteric
Well-Known Member
That's a write up there. Thanks man.
Letstrip
Well-Known Member
Whats the strain in the 3rd pic? Chunk?Thanks man. I frankly think people are missing out making new crosses rather than sticking with one. It's easier with peas but with a little effort ones can really "experience" breeding. As I mentioned a couple of times in this thread, for me it's all about the process. If the results of that turn out great that's just a bonus.
Yes these are Chunk x Cannalope Haze. I still call it P. Figured I give it a letter instead of a name as it's just a work in progress.
Let me just ramble a bit... fun reminiscing after 16 months.
The Chunk is possibly pineapple chunk from barney's or even a cross there of. I received them indirectly from a grower who doesn't know I grow. He doesn't actually grow himself besides watering but provides space in his garage to a 'bread grower' (sells to shops). It's a guess mainly based on the name chunk and the smell. Which doesn't make me think of pineapple but more of pine. I kind of rather giving a 'probable' credit than nothing at all. I posted at grasscity once: "Next up is the chunk, which is supposedly an F2 of a cheesy skunk strain." That was a guess and while the F2 is possible it's not cheesy. The one thing that doesn't fit is that the grow they came from contained full blown males. Probably how I came up with the F2.
The main traits I use from that one is the taste and yield and vigor (love the lush green). The work largely involves breeding out undesired traits (tall hollow stems, too dark-pungent) from the chunk out my cross and end up with something more like the CH. If the goal was just a uniform cross I'd be backcrossing.
The CH is according to icmag and thcfarmer a C99 knockoff instead of the claimed Mex Sativa x O haze (it's an 8 weker with a hazy pheno and one that looks very much like c99).
In hindsight I would have looked for better starting points. Not necessarily better genetics but more suitable for my purposes. The original goal was chunk x cannalope haze, inspired by chocolate fondue, which is chocolope x uk cheese (choco is cannalope haze x thai choco). But, the chunk didn't turn out to be a CHeesy skUNK, and the cannalope haze is not-so-hazy. What I'm basically trying to do now is creating a replacement for the chunk myself, specifically a replacement for P1 of my future hybrid. P2 is going to be a better haze than Cannalope Haze (probably silver or super silver).
I think I ended up doing what I should be doing in the first place. Breed in before breeding out instead of breeding out before breeding in... unless it's for more than a few generations to create something to breed out to something else that has been bred in (or at least is homozygous). Sure there are other ways to breed properly (like backcrossing a homozygous plant from F2 to the original parent) but I think this is the way to go when it comes to real F1 hybrids. It goes for most veggies, fruits and even animals we eat, pretty sure it goes for cannabis too. That pretty sure is a major understatement but easier said than done.
The previous round was CHxCH (and some accidental ICE xCH in the mix) which was all about the whorled phyllotaxy trait. The P line is 'not'. I noticed some whorling in buds and the latest clone of the swan seems to be a tri but is a reveg and there are no whorlers in F3.
A picture of the original chunk mom:
View attachment 3393185
Note the waxy layer. Was in all F1 and F2 too.
Chunk 3 is the original mom of P, should be obvious why I picked that one lol (that one was already 2 feet tall. The others were nuts.
View attachment 3393188
The moms of the other crosses are in it too.
It don't have a decent pic of the mom in flower... I probably do on a flash card somewhere. Only downside it had was clawing (not something she passed on) and being a little hairy.
View attachment 3393194
The male was the cannalope haze with whorled phyllotaxy. I used it on cannalope haze and 3 others, the chunk, late night (a chuck made with tiresias mist based on chocolate fondue), and ICE (7 year old seeds I had in fridge). All to generate variety, scramble up those sentences (inside joke?
View attachment 3393187
The result varies across plants and generations of course but here's the product of one of their grandchildren, the swan:
View attachment 3393208
It has a more hazy-sativa structure than the chunk yet is very easy to trim and dried results in compact but not too dense nuggets. Crumbles as smooth as it smokes.
View attachment 3393207
Yields like the chunk, strong effect... everyone says that about their cross lol and I don't know if it has high cannabinoid levels but it has the strong effect of the CH with the punch of the chunk. That's not exactly the initial goal of the P cross (day time smoke) but suits its new purpose of being the P1 for the eventual hybrid. I doubt it will come out looking as good again being in a small soil pot for a very long time (I basically flowered the mom and took new clones) but I do look forward to having some bud of it again, especially to compare to the F3.
The main downside of Swan (which is #22 from F2) is that the taste is not as distinct as in for example the F3 including it's own offspring. I picked a dominant F2 male specifically for that reason. One I guesstimate has more of the taste genes of the original chunk recombined and not a heterozygous mix like in the F1. In short I'm pretty sure, kinda known, the swan-line is more heterozygous for taste. While the #4 and #19 are likely more homozygous because the female parents of those lines also had the more distinct pine like the male. With the difference that #4 seems sweeter/fruitier/lighter. I'm growing out these #4 first but #19 is not out of the running yet. Swan line neither, but I figured last run I can stabilize taste in future generations. The whole point of running more of the #4 and possibly #19 line is to see if that may not be necessary or at least less of a gamble with those.
So far, besides a few obvious grower-errors, all my seeds still have 100% germination rate. Also the ones I made over a year ago. I do however like the idea of letting those seeds dry a little so after running #4 again I'm going to run a haze before running #19 or P-F4. I don't know when I will cross the two. I don't actually need P to be a homozygous line, just need to find homozygous plants. Obviously easier from a homozygous line, but after several generations and lines it becomes easier to gauge which plants are homozygous for certain traits. At some point I may just create 3 different F1 lines (P x a haze) and see if any represents the initial goal.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Yeah, that bud is from the chunk. I tried to look for some pics of the plant in flower but I have a gap in my photo history... probably on older flash drive from older camera. Some frost shots I posted in other threads/forums:
Sativied
Well-Known Member
While they are still green...
The biogreen calgel didn't seem to help much making up for the lack of Ca in the canna terra and the flores is just asking for problems. So instead I decided to throw in twice the recommended doses of the vega bottle instead of half or 2/3rd. I'm kind of surprised that actually worked... I still have 40% of the terra bottle and 90% of the flores so I used roughly 7 bucks in nutes - maybe a little too much on the low end lol. I can already tell I won't be able to keep them 'hydro-green' till the end but it's going 'ok' for now.
They had about 5 weeks 12/12. I expect them all to be ready before the end of week 9.
19-2:
'Nother of 19-2
While reaching in my closet to water a plant in the back my nose bumped into 19-1... She is slightly thinner and smaller than 19-2 but that one is the only plant I potted up during transition so undoubtedly has filled the pot better.
Getting excited about the possible end results. Not talking total yield, don't care about that at the moment, but the smell... combined with the look (like the frosty CH) makes me look forward to filling jars with these.
The biogreen calgel didn't seem to help much making up for the lack of Ca in the canna terra and the flores is just asking for problems. So instead I decided to throw in twice the recommended doses of the vega bottle instead of half or 2/3rd. I'm kind of surprised that actually worked... I still have 40% of the terra bottle and 90% of the flores so I used roughly 7 bucks in nutes - maybe a little too much on the low end lol. I can already tell I won't be able to keep them 'hydro-green' till the end but it's going 'ok' for now.
They had about 5 weeks 12/12. I expect them all to be ready before the end of week 9.
19-2:
'Nother of 19-2
While reaching in my closet to water a plant in the back my nose bumped into 19-1... She is slightly thinner and smaller than 19-2 but that one is the only plant I potted up during transition so undoubtedly has filled the pot better.
Getting excited about the possible end results. Not talking total yield, don't care about that at the moment, but the smell... combined with the look (like the frosty CH) makes me look forward to filling jars with these.
Letstrip
Well-Known Member
Hell that's frosty what seed company does those?
Sativied
Well-Known Member
I posted this in the long read above:
The Chunk is possibly pineapple chunk from barney's or even a cross there of. I received them indirectly from a grower who doesn't know I grow. He doesn't actually grow himself besides watering but provides space in his garage to a 'bread grower' (sells to shops). It's a guess mainly based on the name chunk and the smell. Which doesn't make me think of pineapple but more of pine. I kind of rather giving a 'probable' credit than nothing at all. I posted at grasscity once: "Next up is the chunk, which is supposedly an F2 of a cheesy skunk strain." That was a guess and while the F2 is possible it's not cheesy. The one thing that doesn't fit is that the grow they came from contained full blown males. Probably how I came up with the F2.
Very frosty (although all my hydro results are similar regardless of strain) but I really can't recommend it. Note the chunk1 and chunk2 in a picture above, those continued to stretch. Turned into a panzerfaust like tree, one thick yet nearly completely hollow stem with large bud on top.
Letstrip
Well-Known Member
Sorry I was in a rush so never got to read it properly
Very interesting! Man you always have happy plants, didnt realize you did hydro
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Np, didn't expect everyone to read that entire postSorry I was in a rush so never got to read it properly
I'm growing on soil till I improved/rebuild my hydro setup to allow me to remove/move plants more easily. In the mean time I'm developing a sort of love-hate relationship with soil... I miss the insight of hydro but currently seem to have things under control nonetheless and love the ability to move around plants and take them out of the closet. Hydro is just easier, for me anyway, so easy, so little work, that I had little left to do except for observing them.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
Just checking the local forums and Sannie, who owns the forum, stopped selling seeds to growers in NL too...Did pollinate this one of course, but I'm starting to wonder if I should have just pollinated the entire thing... some know dutch seed banks stopped selling to.... drumroll... dutch growers.(growshop law...). I'm thinking with all this anti-cannabis crap I may have to start distributing seeds freely. Pretty sure there's no law against that yet.
at least temporarily till there's more clarity about what the law means in practice. Still a good chance it won't hold up in court.While the trade in clones was specifically illegal for years already there were still growshops who sold them under the counter or growers who met in shops exchanged them. That link is gone now too for many. So seeds are becoming more popular, but harder to get.
So I checked and the intro of the law specifically says it's about people who make money facilitating illegal cannabis grows. Now I really regret not pollinating the swan entirely and I'm thinking of a change of plan... or temporary side track. I never set out to make money with breeding and I have to double-check because the new MoJ said something about commercial 'or' contributing to large scale cannabis growing, but the idea of giving away thousands of seeds just to troll the government sounds very very attractive.
Letstrip
Well-Known Member
Ha very cool well your doing a killer job with the soil by the looks of it! I always thought people thought hydro was harderNp, didn't expect everyone to read that entire post
I'm growing on soil till I improved/rebuild my hydro setup to allow me to remove/move plants more easily. In the mean time I'm developing a sort of love-hate relationship with soil... I miss the insight of hydro but currently seem to have things under control nonetheless and love the ability to move around plants and take them out of the closet. Hydro is just easier, for me anyway, so easy, so little work, that I had little left to do except for observing them.
Sativied
Well-Known Member
It differs per setup and grower too probably, but for me, and an nft-like (recirculating mediumless) system it's an easy comparison. All I have to do in hydro is maintain the ph and ppm level of a single reservoir and that's roughly twice a week. Got ppm and ph and temp displays on outside of my closet. With soil I have to do the same thing daily and for every pot but without measuring.I always thought people thought hydro was harder
At the moment using Terra vega + N, Ca, Mg additive seems to work ok. I actually just gave them a little flores (200ppm on top of 250 tap calmag) because the thing that seems to have the worst effect is giving water only. I tried feed-water-water, then feed-water-feed-water, and it actually seems feed-feed-feed is the way to go.
Anyway, just potted up the new batch of #4 into yet an organic mix suitable for organic herbs, veggies, and fruits. Has enough nutes for 9 weeks. I'm going to cover the soil to reduce evaporation and hopefully the amount of watering. The soil may be a bit hot or at least cause some dark green or even clawing initially. I'm putting them directly under 12/12, not topping.
(in previous pots)
One's missing, and only one odd duck so far (at the bottom in pic, long petioles, could be just from having a less optimal position in the veg box. Running some seedlings on hydro so was crowded. I don't have a lot of seeds from line #4 (from small hempy bottle female) so if I don't find what I'm looking for or better I'm probably going to run some #19 again. In any case, I'll also be running some haze.