Is healthcare a right?

[blazin256]

[video=youtube;7n2m-X7OIuY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n2m-X7OIuY[/video]

and in case you want more about what he was talking about the librarians..http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/politics/26patriot.html?_r=1
pay particular attention to this part

"The bureau's power to use national security letters to demand records without a judge's approval was expanded under the antiterrorism law. Last year, a federal judge in Manhattan struck down part of the subpoena provision as unconstitutional, in part because it allowed for no judicial oversight, but the Justice Department is appealing the ruling."

 

[CaRNiFReeK]

It is not a question of whether or not health care is a right. It is a question of economics, which is emotionless. I have drawn a quick supply and demand curve. Supply and demand is a force that is stronger than gravity. Every market will automatically seek out and find equilibrium and remain there until an outside force acts upon that market. This graph is a snapshot. It assumes 'Ceterus Paribus' that nothing else changes except price and quantity demanded, (represented by the vertical and horizontal black lines). The intersection of S1 (supply) and D1 (demand) is equilibrium. At its equilibrium the market can only produce 10,000 policies at $500 a policy. That is-- The consumer is only willing and able to spend $500 per policy. At $500 per policy, the producer is only willing and able to sell 10,000 policies.

The government steps in, (Represented by the gold line) due to the unmet demands of 35 million people who need health care, (market failure). That shifts the demand curve (D2) outward, creating a supply shortage. At this level of demand, the insurance company would have to charge $2000 per policy, and only 5 million people are willing and able to spend that much-- even if the government was to intervene. As you can clearly see, insurance companies would have to charge $8000 per policy to meet that demand, and consumers would have to be willing and able to spend that much.

In order for it to work one or both of 2 things have to happen. The Supply line has to move to the right, (companies have to find a way to produce policies cheaper) and/or the demand line has to move to the left, (population reduction). That is it. Not my law, but it is the law of supply and demand. People either have to get healthier so insurance providers can provide coverage at a lower rate, or they have to die. (Not that those are the ONLY two things that will move those curves.) It is not as simple as who's gonna pay or who has it coming. Like it or not, the market WILL find equilibrium. It doesn't care how it finds it, but it will find it, is really what I am trying to interject.

There are such things as market failure, government failure, diminishing marginal utility, non price determinates of demand, and externalities to consider among others. But for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction, (another pesky law). All this graph represents is a 2 dimensional snapshot. The numbers are arbitrary, I'm just trying to illustrate the supply and demand curve.

That said, even with all the other factors I am not considering, the market will find it's equilibrium as sure as the planet continues on it's path around the sun.

 

[Balzac89]

Most of you have probably never heard this. FDR had it right.

[video=youtube;3EZ5bx9AyI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5bx9AyI4[/video]

 

[NoDrama]

FDR was a delusional old broken man.

 

[BudMcLovin]

Most of you have probably never heard this. FDR had it right.

[video=youtube;3EZ5bx9AyI4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5bx9AyI4[/video]

Is FDR going to give everyone a job? Is FDR going to buy everyone a house? Are you?
The free market already gives people access to everything FDR claims people have a right to.

 

[0xo0]

Don't get me wrong, I do get all the free market stuff and I think it would be great if it played out that way. But it doesn't. Instead of the government intervening to prevent monopolies (which is absolutely essential today more so than ever to keep all of that free market stuff free), they're actually in bed with them. It's ALL about cornering the market, and many of them are effectively cornered. So much of it is artificial, it's not as simple as those handy dandy laws of supply and demand. Probably all the gold on earth is already effectively owned already. Those parts of it all would need to be taken into account, and it never is when analyzing economics because it can't be. It's artificial. Something like $37,000+ per legislator per day is spent on lobbying, and that's what actually makes the books. It doesn't say anything about campaign donations either. They've already ruined our constitution. It was originally all designed so the people could actually elect a total monster and still be safe, but those protections are largely gone now. If we needed to overthrow the government, as is our DUTY, well... good luck with that. Police forces didn't even exist back when all that was designed/written.

 

[0xo0]

Above all else, humanity is at a point where we totally COULD feed and clothe and educate and shelter and provide health care for every last person on earth. I don't really see why we shouldn't... and when you look at the distribution of wealth all across the world, it's not like anybody on this forum would actually have to give up anything to get humanity to that point. We would all reap the benefits, however. It's total narcissism that prevents this from happening.

 

[NoDrama]

Above all else, humanity is at a point where we totally COULD feed and clothe and educate and shelter and provide health care for every last person on earth. I don't really see why we shouldn't... and when you look at the distribution of wealth all across the world, it's not like anybody on this forum would actually have to give up anything to get humanity to that point. We would all reap the benefits, however. It's total narcissism that prevents this from happening.

So do you keep resuscitating the 96 year old man who has a bad heart and keeps keeling over? When do you say enough is enough? You really cannot give everyone healthcare, at some point you have to let them die.

 

[ginjawarrior]

So do you keep resuscitating the 96 year old man who has a bad heart and keeps keeling over? When do you say enough is enough? You really cannot give everyone healthcare, at some point you have to let them die.

hmm thats a very dangerous line to go down. it will come to a point when your usefulness to society is the cut off.....

all the time that 96yearold wants health care then it should be there it shouldnt be forced on him but should never be taken away however much you decree he's past his sell by date

EDIT: i mean forced as kept alive against his will. my belief is that healthcare is a right

 

[0xo0]

People should plan for the ends of their lives. It should be encouraged. It's going to happen, and it's okay; you couldn't have life without death. It's one of our many delusions we have here, that goes back to the narcissism thing. A lot of Americans think their lives are the only ones that matter, the only ones that are important. Or that theirs, for whatever reason(s), practically always delusional reasons, that their lives are more worthwhile/valuable/worthy/etc than the lives of others. I can't for the life of me understand it. If all I did was watch reality television, I guess if it was all I COULD do, I'd shoot myself.

 

[blazin256]

if it is a right to have health care, then something else we must ask ourselves is is it right to be penalized if you dont want health care?

 

[ginjawarrior]

if it is a right to have health care, then something else we must ask ourselves is is it right to be penalized if you dont want health care?

yeah i'd take healthcare for all over a few disgruntled tax payers anyday. the chances are the vast majority of people that didnt want to pay would end up needing healthcare themselves anyway no matter how much they say they wouldn't

 

[bajafox]

I'm poor and unemployed and I still think health care is a privilege

I worked my ass of to get it and when I finally got it, it took a big chunk out of my paycheck every month but it was worth having it, even though I hardly ever used it. I think I paid more into it than what I used before I got laid off from the same company, I had been there for 10 years.

If people think they can sit on their ass at home all day and get free healthcare so they can go to the hospital for a simple cough can kiss my ass. I'm gonna rough it out, use my Prop 215 card and wait until I earn my benefits back.

 

[ginjawarrior]

I'm poor and unemployed and I still think health care is a privilege

I worked my ass of to get it and when I finally got it, it took a big chunk out of my paycheck every month but it was worth having it, even though I hardly ever used it. I think I paid more into it than what I used before I got laid off from the same company, I had been there for 10 years.

If people think they can sit on their ass at home all day and get free healthcare so they can go to the hospital for a simple cough can kiss my ass. I'm gonna rough it out, use my Prop 215 card and wait until I earn my benefits back.

and what happens if you fall ill before you find a job and cant pay for insurance again? what if your too ill to work to get insurance?

 

[0xo0]

Bajafox did you read the rest of this thread by chance?

Right now I'm in a really pretty particularly bad position. I was born with a life or death chronic condition, I will die without treatment. A few years ago my health went straight down the toilet, and I eventually got laid off and then eventually lost my COBRA coverage. They've pretty much made it a ridiculous pain in the ass to get my treatment, which is literally the only way I'm ever going to have any hope of anything more in this life. Without getting it consistently I'm also at very real risk of irreversible damage that's just going to put it all even further out of reach, and make it even more expensive to keep me alive.

And it's fucking expensive as it is right now. I'm talking $6,000-10,000 a month just to go on living as things are right now. It didn't have to get to be this bad. At an early age I found myself wondering why they didn't just kill me. I've considered doing it myself. But that's bullshit. I was baptized in the hospital when I was a baby because they didn't think I would ever leave alive. But then they figured it all out and kept me alive long enough to grow and love and all, and earn a one way ticket to hell if all of that Catholic stuff happens to be true. I've had to tell people that if they expect me to just die now, I'll walk with them but they're going to have to be the ones to do it. I'm not going to pull the trigger myself, that's fucked.

Your attitude is incredibly narcissistic.

 

[bajafox]

and what happens if you fall ill before you find a job and cant pay for insurance again? what if your too ill to work to get insurance?

Then I am shit out of luck, the same way I was before I earned my health care insurance.

Bajafox did you read the rest of this thread by chance?

Right now I'm in a really pretty particularly bad position. I was born with a life or death chronic condition, I will die without treatment. A few years ago my health went straight down the toilet, and I eventually got laid off and then eventually lost my COBRA coverage. They've pretty much made it a ridiculous pain in the ass to get my treatment, which is literally the only way I'm ever going to have any hope of anything more in this life. Without getting it consistently I'm also at very real risk of irreversible damage that's just going to put it all even further out of reach, and make it even more expensive to keep me alive.

And it's fucking expensive as it is right now. I'm talking $6,000-10,000 a month just to go on living as things are right now. It didn't have to get to be this bad. At an early age I found myself wondering why they didn't just kill me. I've considered doing it myself. But that's bullshit. I was baptized in the hospital when I was a baby because they didn't think I would ever leave. But then they figured it all out and kept me alive long enough to grow and love and all, and earn a one way ticket to hell if all of that Catholic stuff happens to be true. I've had to tell people that if they expect me to just die now, I'll walk with them but they're going to have to be the ones to do it. I'm not going to pull the trigger myself, that's fucked.

Your attitude is incredibly narcissistic.

No I did not. Trust me, my wife thinks I'm a dick about my stance on it too, so do some of my cousins who need it.

I was born in Mexico and nothing ever came easy to me, from becoming a citizen to getting a nice paying desk job with a 2 year degree. I worked my fucking ass off for both of those things, my parents paid hundreds of dollars for my citizenship plus 2 years of waiting and it took me 8 years to crack $50k at my company before getting laid off. I wish it was that easy to just hand over free healthcare to people, but it's not. This country is full of people taking advantage of situations. Look what happened to the real estate market. Loop holes put middle income families into upper middle class homes, 3 years after their interest only loan ran out, they get foreclosed, why? Because they received shit they didn't deserve.

Same thing is going to happen to healthcare, give people what they don't deserve and they will take advantage of it.

I'm sorry for your situation, but it's not me you should blame, it's those idiots who go to the hospital because they have a stomach ache when they can just take some Pepto Bismol and a nap, instead of wasting time for people who really need it, like you.

I like to consider myself a realist.

 

[CaRNiFReeK]

Above all else, humanity is at a point where we totally COULD feed and clothe and educate and shelter and provide health care for every last person on earth

I agree with this absolutely. We could do that.

I don't really see why we shouldn't... and when you look at the distribution of wealth all across the world, it's not like anybody on this forum would actually have to give up anything to get humanity to that point. We would all reap the benefits, however. It's total narcissism that prevents this from happening.

This is the part I disagree with. The reason is ECON 101, Chapter 1, Page 1: Scarcity: The lack of enough resources to satisfy all desired uses of those resources. All of those "handy dandy laws of supply and demand" are not so simple when you pit implicit costs vs. explicit costs. Implicit costs include all of the things you forgo in order to use an asset. Explicit costs are just monetary outlay.

There is also a thing called the "Law of diminishing return" and it is not as 'simple' as S&D, (and S&D is not simple. If you think it is, then you don't really "get all of that free market stuff"). It says that the marginal physical product of a variable input (not fixed) declines as more of it is employed within a given quantity of fixed inputs.

For example, if I run a hot dog cart by myself on day one and I pay myself $10, I sell 50 hot dogs in a day. I then hire a second person on day two and pay him $10 to run the register, I sell 200 hot dogs because we specialized our service to the hot dog stand. On day three I hire a third person, pay him $10, and we only sell 250 dogs because we are running into each other. Selling each dog for 2 bucks a piece, my business makes $90 the first day, $380 the second, and $470 the third. My per unit cost however, goes from $1.80 on day one to $1.90 on day two, to $1.88 on day three. My business is becoming effected by the law of diminishing return on day 3. If I add one more person, pay them $10 and we sell 255 dogs, my business makes $470 on its 4th day for a per unit cost of $1.84. On day 4, we are still selling more hot dogs than on day 3, but the business didn't take in any more, and the per unit cost actually went down. Our hot dog stand is now seeing a diminishing return at the same profit.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if it is hot dogs or health insurance, it works out the same regardless of product sold. We may have the resources to DO it in theory, but when it comes down to actually DOING it, it cannot be done. It's the law. Any attempt to try would incur an opportunity cost, an implicit cost that would create an even bigger disaster than we tried to fix in the first place.

 

[0xo0]

That's assuming all things are fair and no one is cheating. I would love it if it were like that. But it's not really a free market. If it really were that simple, wouldn't it all be that simple?

 

[0xo0]

One could look at the health care our veterans get, it sure seems to be working really well. The operating costs are actually quite low too.

 

[Balzac89]

The second bill of rights would make it the governments job to make sure every who wanted a job could get one. That means the government has to come up with ways to get the private businesses to hire more people. It would be better than the current system of starting a war to support industry. Not that that works for us anymore or anything?