nl3004.kind
Active Member
sure would, that is my recommendation, but some people insist on going big to start...
Alcohol Tincture
- Thread starter Hobbes
- Start date
KenzieKush86
Member
I saw on another site, that you are supposed to let the mixture sit, un-closed, for 2 days to let the alcohol evaporate. Is this true?
nl3004.kind
Active Member
hey, i know this is a bit random, but has anyone heard from the great wizard hobbes lately? ?? i pm'ed him some stuff, but haven't heard back in quite some time... just wondering if he is still on here... hobbes if you're out there, get at a grower! i've got some questions, plus i just wanna know you're ok...
nl3004.kind
Active Member
good stalking poplars... i totally forgot to check his page... thx...
Liminator
Member
Ok... so I've read pretty much this entire lengthy thread, and still have some confusion on a few points, and it's not because I'm baked lol.
So, NL mentioned a few pages back that if your bud is dry and cured, you don't need to bake it to decarb. But then in other posts, the opposite is said. Which is it? Is baking dry cured bud going to hurt anything or only be airing on the side of caution?
Also, I know that most use, or want to use, the warm method for a faster result, but is it true that a room temp or cold (freezer) method for a longer duration (ie 6-8 weeks) with daily shaking ultimately provides a higher potency tincture? (which can then be processed in one of the many options suggested, if desired, to purify)
I picked up a bottle of Alcool today (95%) at the liquor store here in Montreal. 1.17 liters (39.56 OZ) was the smallest they had (YAY Quebec! haha). A bit pricey at $61.75 CAD, but it's a pretty big bottle, so I guess it's not so bad. That's a hell of a lot of tincture haha.
I just wanted to be 100% sure of my starting point before filling mason jars. I have at least 6 OZ of bud that I want to use for tincture, most of which was either highly crystallized hermi bud or scrawny bud that's not so tasty to smoke. TONS of trichomes though, so I don't want to just chuck the stuff.
If anyone has a suggestion as to where I should start, I'm open! I have patience and time, so slow methods are welcome too if it's ultimately worth while. Thanks everyone!
PS: I'm looking for a soothing, sedating full body buzz without all the nasty head shit that sometimes comes with weed. Man I miss smoking hash lol.
So, NL mentioned a few pages back that if your bud is dry and cured, you don't need to bake it to decarb. But then in other posts, the opposite is said. Which is it? Is baking dry cured bud going to hurt anything or only be airing on the side of caution?
Also, I know that most use, or want to use, the warm method for a faster result, but is it true that a room temp or cold (freezer) method for a longer duration (ie 6-8 weeks) with daily shaking ultimately provides a higher potency tincture? (which can then be processed in one of the many options suggested, if desired, to purify)
I picked up a bottle of Alcool today (95%) at the liquor store here in Montreal. 1.17 liters (39.56 OZ) was the smallest they had (YAY Quebec! haha). A bit pricey at $61.75 CAD, but it's a pretty big bottle, so I guess it's not so bad. That's a hell of a lot of tincture haha.
I just wanted to be 100% sure of my starting point before filling mason jars. I have at least 6 OZ of bud that I want to use for tincture, most of which was either highly crystallized hermi bud or scrawny bud that's not so tasty to smoke. TONS of trichomes though, so I don't want to just chuck the stuff.
If anyone has a suggestion as to where I should start, I'm open! I have patience and time, so slow methods are welcome too if it's ultimately worth while. Thanks everyone!
PS: I'm looking for a soothing, sedating full body buzz without all the nasty head shit that sometimes comes with weed. Man I miss smoking hash lol.
Hi all,
thanks everybody, but especially to Hobbes, for the very interesting thread.
I was curious to know if anyone has experimented with the Autoclave Extraction described by Hobbes in message #21.
Some of the claims are hard to believe but as the method is quite different from most (combination of very high temperature, long cooking times and no air allowed to escape) the results are hard to just guess based on similar experiences.
Looking on the web I found the same message repeated on a few forums but no other confirmation or confutation of the method.
thx
thanks everybody, but especially to Hobbes, for the very interesting thread.
I was curious to know if anyone has experimented with the Autoclave Extraction described by Hobbes in message #21.
Some of the claims are hard to believe but as the method is quite different from most (combination of very high temperature, long cooking times and no air allowed to escape) the results are hard to just guess based on similar experiences.
Looking on the web I found the same message repeated on a few forums but no other confirmation or confutation of the method.
thx
nl3004.kind
Active Member
imo, science will show that the longer you put your buds in the alcohol, the more that it extracts- people use the warm method because they don't want to wait two months before they can medicate...
if your buds are dried and cured, then heating them up before you put them in the alcohol won't hurt, but if you do it for too long, they will lose some of their flavor and punch...
the thing i would tell you is that to make it as strong as possible make sure to only just barely cover the buds with alcohol, and when it is done (regardless of method), you should start with a small amount of it (like drops or teaspoons, not ounces) and titrate it until you are right where you want to be...
good luck liminator! let us know how it turns out.
nl3004.kind
Active Member
poplars
Well-Known Member
yep!
I did the warm method with a bunch of small buds from 5 of my strains I grew outdoors last year, with a few balls of scizzor hash... the shit is so powerful you can't even take a half shot without getting ridiculously high (depending on your tolerance..)
its pretty awesome stuff,I highly recommend it when it's done right...
though I also recommend you evaporate the excess alcohol after extraction... it will still work just fine, without the bite of the alcohol... this is all preference however.. it may store longer with the extra alcohol as opposed to the evaporated mix....
Thank you nl3004.kind for your take on this.
I was hoping the ingenuity shown in many contributions on this thread could help in finding a way around the autoclave.
I am in a very cannabis unfriendly place at the moment so will not be able to experiment, but when I'll be able to I'll try the following:
The glycerine boiling point is much higher than the 155c needed for the preparation. So a simple pressure cooker should do nicely.
The problem would be controlling the temperature and the best way I can think of is using a larger pot filled with oil (not water as it would evaporate) brought to a temperature of 155c.
Put the pressure cooker (or another pot with a solid lid on as there should be no pressure build up at that temperature) in the oiled filled pot.
The thermometer should go in the oil to make sure the temperature is right.
This should guarantee a setup very similar to the one described in the autoclave method.
I am curious to have your thoughts on this idea.
thx
nl3004.kind
Active Member
speaking only about the technical parts of your idea, yes it will work better with oil vs water...
however, the thing is this: the melting point of thc, thcv, thca, cbn, cbd all is lower than 155c and you run the risk of losing potency the longer you cook the glycerine...
i would recommend that you do it without a lid in the pot, using a digital thermometer with a thermocouple (like the one you could get a target for roasting meats: long wire between base and a metal probe) into the glycerine, keeping it right at 155c or so for as little time as possible...
for me, i usually extract at 125F just so you have a frame of reference...
good luck!
nl3004.kind,
I think the idea of the Autoclave method is very different from the method you use.
In fact the Autoclave method requires to leave the tincture at 155c for 36 hours.
That is why I mentioned that this method was very different from most others. Usually you have low temp and long times or high temp and short times.
This method requires the glycerine tincture to stay for a long time at very high temp.
I understand that thc,cbn and cbd may reach boiling point but once in glycerine, does that mean they would be released as vapor inside the cooker? Could this be the reason why the author insists the lid should be necessarily closed?
The reason why this method is so intriguing (apart from the promises of a highly potent oil) is that it is so unlike most of the other methods.
Would anyone with more experience like to chime in with any ideas?
Thx
I think the idea of the Autoclave method is very different from the method you use.
In fact the Autoclave method requires to leave the tincture at 155c for 36 hours.
That is why I mentioned that this method was very different from most others. Usually you have low temp and long times or high temp and short times.
This method requires the glycerine tincture to stay for a long time at very high temp.
I understand that thc,cbn and cbd may reach boiling point but once in glycerine, does that mean they would be released as vapor inside the cooker? Could this be the reason why the author insists the lid should be necessarily closed?
The reason why this method is so intriguing (apart from the promises of a highly potent oil) is that it is so unlike most of the other methods.
Would anyone with more experience like to chime in with any ideas?
Thx
nl3004.kind
Active Member
the deal is this: regardless of what substance it is in, if it (by it i mean literally anything one is trying to extract including the good parts of the weed) is heated beyond the point of volatility (which happens to be below 155c for most of the thc spectrum), the thca, v, cbn, cbd ect is vaporized OUT OF WHAT IS LEFT BEHIND (meaning into the air, not into the glycerine. If the door of the autoclave is closed tightly, all that means is that the vapors will escape when the door is open. the autoclave is not a magical reverse distillation device in which somehow the laws of physics and chemistry are reversed... in fact, to me this method is similar to those methods of making cannabutter which say to cook it for three days instead of 3-6 hours depending on temp... the oil which you will end up extracting would be high in thc ect but not as high as if you had cooked it at 180*f for 36 hours, get it??
hobbes, back me up on this, bro!
poplars
Well-Known Member
pretty sure it doesn't work like that. if the boiling point of the material the thc is in is higher than the boiling point of thc then it will essentially stop the thc from vaporizing out if it is soluble.
nl3004.kind
Active Member
that would be true if the boiling point of the glycerine was below 290* c which it is...
likewise the boiling point of thc is 157*c so unless you want to burn the glycerine AND the weed, you've got to extract it at less than the boiling/ vaporization point of BOTH.
this is why i defer to people with *actual* science knowledge like hobbes when i've got questions or come across half-baked web theories...
WhiteWidower123
Active Member
keep in mind boiling point and the point at which something evaporates are two entirely different things. one thing that you always have to keep in mind in chemistry is that a certain amount of EVERYTHING your dealing with is constantly evaporating away. Things like acetone that have low boiling points still evaporate rapidly below their boiling point. Hell, look at ICE, water evaporates off of ice. If you keep ice in a freezer with low humidity it will evaporate and form a fine layer all along the walls and roof.
the fact is alot of these things CANT be awnsered scientificly without some serious equipment. Im an undergrad chem student seeking my major in chem and then i want to go on to get a masters in Ochem (i fucking LOVE ochem). So my knowledge on chemistry, however limited, is still decent. And yes, i make my cannabutter using beakers, stirboxes and heat pads. I swear to god my recepe is in ml. And I still see variance from 1 butter to the next.
Im extremely interested in tinctures. Im desperately trying to find a way to enjoy my cannabis again. I just cant seem to get high back. My cannabutter actually receives complaints from people who say they where just TOO high and crashed/woke up high, but i have to eat a good 1/4 of my brownie batch to see any results (which arnt impressive).
the fact is alot of these things CANT be awnsered scientificly without some serious equipment. Im an undergrad chem student seeking my major in chem and then i want to go on to get a masters in Ochem (i fucking LOVE ochem). So my knowledge on chemistry, however limited, is still decent. And yes, i make my cannabutter using beakers, stirboxes and heat pads. I swear to god my recepe is in ml. And I still see variance from 1 butter to the next.
Im extremely interested in tinctures. Im desperately trying to find a way to enjoy my cannabis again. I just cant seem to get high back. My cannabutter actually receives complaints from people who say they where just TOO high and crashed/woke up high, but i have to eat a good 1/4 of my brownie batch to see any results (which arnt impressive).
WhiteWidower123
Active Member
Also, if i remember correctly Hydrocloric Acid (HCl) is made by pumping hydrogen gas through chlorine or vice versa. Hell, it may have been another chemical entirely, all i know is i remember reading about a process in which a gas was pumped through a liquid in order to bind them together. If this is a true process, it stands to reason that if the solution reached the evap point of thc BEFORE that of the butter/liquer/oil then it would be grabbed by the oil. The fault to this is thc...... stop error error....
rewind. I think we are using flawed chemistry here. first off, if we claim thc evaporates at point A, then it evaporates at point A... period. if it was then grabbed by the oil, would it take on a NEW boiling point of the oil? lets flip that question, if it was grabbed by ethanol... would it now have the bp of ethanol? This opens a world of problems...
if the awnser is YES, then oil tinctures will be amazing becuase they will create a more stable thc compound but ethenal tinctures would be shit cause they evaporate at room temp...
if the awnser is NO, then it doesnt matter what the bp is of the oil or tincture medium, the thc is going to evaporate... as it heats its going to rise to the surface and thc molecules that are on the surface are going to evaporate...
rewind. I think we are using flawed chemistry here. first off, if we claim thc evaporates at point A, then it evaporates at point A... period. if it was then grabbed by the oil, would it take on a NEW boiling point of the oil? lets flip that question, if it was grabbed by ethanol... would it now have the bp of ethanol? This opens a world of problems...
if the awnser is YES, then oil tinctures will be amazing becuase they will create a more stable thc compound but ethenal tinctures would be shit cause they evaporate at room temp...
if the awnser is NO, then it doesnt matter what the bp is of the oil or tincture medium, the thc is going to evaporate... as it heats its going to rise to the surface and thc molecules that are on the surface are going to evaporate...
WhiteWidower123
Active Member
Ok, i searched my mind, sometimes it takes time, i think i found an awnser.
Step 1
In any AQ mixture we see an even distribution of all molecules. Heavy molecules dont sink and light ones dont float. In an AQ mixture its all even.
step 2
in any distillation, we see that chemicals in the solution evaporate at their percise evaporation point, pulling themselves out of solution. We can use this method to pull ethanol (w/ a low bp) out of swill (moderate bp)
step 3
when thc leaves the organic material, it becomes a molecule, itself floating evenly distributed throughout solution
step 4
if we distill this, we will pull thc out of solution at its evap point just like any other chemical
if it where a salt, this would be different, its not.
step 5
put ethanol, butter, and a shitload of thc together, we can distill these.... ethanol has the lowest bp, it will evaporate first, all the thc in the ethanol will move to the butter layer, next is thc, it will boil off, then butter, leaving salts and fats behind.
with that path of reasoning, i see no reason that a higher bp chemical would "catch" THC unless it was capture thc that was being passed to it by a catalyst like ethanol, AND the solution hadnt reached the bp of thc. I COULD see how it could slow down the process of evaporation, I could also see fats in the butters causing a traffic jam and slowing down thc evaporation.
Its possible that you could make a batch of butter with a skinny REAALLLLLY tall pot, use a mixture of ethanol, water, and butter, LOTS of butter. The bottom of the pot would reach very high temps, any temp you wanted really, causing evaporation and all kinds of shit, but the top of the pot would still be cool, hell you might even keep a solid layer of butter film at the top. I think that as the THC rose up the colum it would cool and bind into the butter... kind of like a fractional distilation where you never collect the distilate. this would require like a 5 foot tall pot though, and probably atleast 2 feet of butter at the top. meaning someone would have to be willing to make about 10-20 pounds all at once... if they are using high grade hemp that could cost on the order of 10-20,000 bucks. I wont be doing this :/
Step 1
In any AQ mixture we see an even distribution of all molecules. Heavy molecules dont sink and light ones dont float. In an AQ mixture its all even.
step 2
in any distillation, we see that chemicals in the solution evaporate at their percise evaporation point, pulling themselves out of solution. We can use this method to pull ethanol (w/ a low bp) out of swill (moderate bp)
step 3
when thc leaves the organic material, it becomes a molecule, itself floating evenly distributed throughout solution
step 4
if we distill this, we will pull thc out of solution at its evap point just like any other chemical
if it where a salt, this would be different, its not.
step 5
put ethanol, butter, and a shitload of thc together, we can distill these.... ethanol has the lowest bp, it will evaporate first, all the thc in the ethanol will move to the butter layer, next is thc, it will boil off, then butter, leaving salts and fats behind.
with that path of reasoning, i see no reason that a higher bp chemical would "catch" THC unless it was capture thc that was being passed to it by a catalyst like ethanol, AND the solution hadnt reached the bp of thc. I COULD see how it could slow down the process of evaporation, I could also see fats in the butters causing a traffic jam and slowing down thc evaporation.
Its possible that you could make a batch of butter with a skinny REAALLLLLY tall pot, use a mixture of ethanol, water, and butter, LOTS of butter. The bottom of the pot would reach very high temps, any temp you wanted really, causing evaporation and all kinds of shit, but the top of the pot would still be cool, hell you might even keep a solid layer of butter film at the top. I think that as the THC rose up the colum it would cool and bind into the butter... kind of like a fractional distilation where you never collect the distilate. this would require like a 5 foot tall pot though, and probably atleast 2 feet of butter at the top. meaning someone would have to be willing to make about 10-20 pounds all at once... if they are using high grade hemp that could cost on the order of 10-20,000 bucks. I wont be doing this :/