23 Days, Yellowing Fan Leaves

[Uncle Ben]

This is the analysis for the bloom fertilizer I recently started the plant on (Jack's Blossom Booster 10-30-20) from the manufacturer's website:

Total Nitrogen (N) 10%
5% Ammoniacal Nitrogen
5% Nitrate Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (P2O5) 30%
Soluble Potash (K2O) 20%
Magnesium (Mg) 0.50%
0.50% Water Soluble Magnesium (Mg)
Boron (B) 0.02%
Copper (Cu) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Copper (Cu)
Iron (Fe) 0.10%
0.10% Chelated Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0009%
Zinc (Zn) 0.05%
0.05% Chelated Zinc (Zn)

Based on your current experiences, not enough N, not that 1/8 tsp will have any real world effect (it won't). What are you doing using a high P food (which blocks N and micros uptake) when the plant is telling you it needs a 30-10-10 for continuing leaf support and maintenance? Been reading too many cannabis forum posts about what's popular rather than what's botanically correct?

Blossom Boosters will only reduce your yields by inducing premature leaf drop. You need to learn plant nutrition.

 

[bigjesse1922]

Based on your current experiences, not enough N, not that 1/8 tsp will have any real world effect (it won't). You need to learn plant nutrition.

Yeah, uh, listen to whatever UB tells you. To me, it looked like a pH problem being MG Soil and a 10-30-20 for consecutive feedings at 1/2 and full strength respectively.

But I don't understand things like Uncle Ben does, and if he is analyzing your nutrients for you, I would take that advice and run with it.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Cannabis is pH tolerant. Don't worry about pH nor letting your water stand before using it.

Also, NEVER let a pot completely dry out. The soil should stay moist (not saturated) at all times.

Good luck,
UB

 

[psyte]

Based on your current experiences, not enough N, not that 1/8 tsp will have any real world effect (it won't). What are you doing using a high P food (which blocks N and micros uptake) when the plant is telling you it needs a 30-10-10 for continuing leaf support and maintenance? Being reading too many cannabis forum posts about using what's popular rather than what's correct?

Blossom Boosters will only reduce your yields by inducing premature leaf drop. You need to learn plant nutrition.

Look bro, it's my first grow. Relax. Of course I'm going with what I learned based on the limited research I've been able to do so far. Sorry I've yet to come across some secret way of doing things that makes everything easy for a beginner. I think you can see how it makes sense to go with what most people are doing at first and then learn your own method from there. Obviously I don't plan on doing it the same way forever just cause everyone else says that's best.

I don't understand why I'd use a 30-10-10 nearly a month into flowering when the plant was looking nice and green up until a few days ago. The plant was not telling me it needed N (if that is in fact the deficiency) until then. Are you saying it's best to use veg nutes throughout the life of the plants and never use bloom nutes? If that's the case it seems like everyone growing would be having the same issue I am. I don't know, maybe it's more common than I realize. Like I've said many times in this thread, I'm open to learning something new, I just wish you'd be a bit less condescending and not assume everyone has the same knowledge and resources you do. If you could point me in the right direction where I could read up and learn more about this i would appreciate it.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Look bro, it's my first grow. Relax. Of course I'm going with what I learned based on the limited research I've been able to do so far.

Sorry, but most of such resources suck. If you want learn what makes a plant tick, the crap, gimmicks, and myths perpetuated in cannabis forums is your worst enemy. Be real damn careful regarding internet chat. Buy Mel Frank's 'MJ Insiders Growers Guide' and do it right.

I don't understand why I'd use a 30-10-10 nearly a month into flowering......

Because it's what the plant needs, that's why! You gonna sit there and watch your plants lose leaves because you THINK (based on popular thought) that you should be using a blossom food now?????? It's NOT blossom foods, additives, and supplements and other cannabis crap that produce buds, it's leaves and IF that means giving your plant pure N in the form of urea, ammonium salts, etc. to produce and retain healthy green leaves, then that's what you do, like this.





Look, you got a thin skin and are gonna take the popular route, that's what noobies do. Do some research outside of these silly cannabis forums. Learn plant nutrition as opposed to "how to kill my plants taking popular forum advice." http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/quickref/fertilizer/nutri_def.html

http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

Good luck,
UB

 

[bigjesse1922]

Thanks for the links and the reference (Mel Frank) UB!

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks for the link and the reference (Mel Frank) UB!

You're welcome. 2 good links and a solid book!

 

[psyte]

Cool, I'll check it out. You gotta understand though, just during researching on forums I've seen A LOT of people who are as sure as you are that their method is the correct way. It's like a religion for people, they know the one true way and everyone else is wrong. As a beginner what are you supposed to think of that? Give me time and don't be so sure I'm just going to go along with the status quo and do everything the popular way. But I'm still going to do the research myself when possible. If I just blindly followed what you say then it really would be no better than just following the common knowledge. My grow might turn out better but I wouldn't understand why. I'm not interested in that. I want to learn. So keep it coming with the info and knowledge but please tone it back a bit with acting so shocked that I'm not doing things your way right off the bat. That's not realistic.

 

[psyte]

bigjesse, tried to pm you but it says your box is full.

 

[bigjesse1922]

Cool, I'll check it out. You gotta understand though, just during researching on forums I've seen A LOT of people who are as sure as you are that their method is the correct way. It's like a religion for people, they know the one true way and everyone else is wrong. As a beginner what are you supposed to think of that? Give me time and don't be so sure I'm just going to go along with the status quo and do everything the popular way. But I'm still going to do the research myself when possible. If I just blindly followed what you say then it really would be no better than just following the common knowledge. My grow might turn out better but I wouldn't understand why. I'm not interested in that. I want to learn. So keep it coming with the info and knowledge but please tone it back a bit with acting so shocked that I'm not doing things your way right off the bat. That's not realistic.

I can understand how you feel I think that's why he gave you some resources. Personally, I have a lot of experience growing but it pales in comparison to 40 years. He can really analyze things in a way that most people cannot; I have seen him do so on this forum over the past few years.

I don't think Uncle Ben is trying to be offensive. He is really just trying to help.

It's like my coach told me in football, if he didn't think I was worth the effort, he wouldn't get on me about doing better....he didn't just ignore my mistakes like some of the other kids who had no potential.

Well, sorry if I'm sticking my beak in. I just know you are lucky to have Uncle Ben along!

EDIT: I cleaned out my inbox sorry about that.

 

[Uncle Ben]

bigjesse, tried to pm you but it says your box is full.

Yep, and here is my response to his PM:

Hi Jesse, yeah, I prefer posting in forums. When I get basic questions in PM's like "what is the stretch", it kinda irks me.

I'm into plant nutrition, light saturation, 20 degree drop in temps at night, 20/4 veg photoperiod, etc. When you say you use some food without expressing the elemental values, I lose all interest as it means nothing in the real world only in cannabis forums that say they use this and that without knowing what's in them.

Only solid advice I can give you is to grow (and retain) the most amount of roots and foliage you can until harvest, cause that's all that matters. How you do attain that is your call.

Don't flush.

Good luck,
UB

 

[bigjesse1922]

Yep, and here is my response to his PM:

Hi Jesse, yeah, I prefer posting in forums. When I get basic questions in PM's like "what is the stretch", it kinda irks me.

That wasn't what I was really asking....I have done hundreds of hours of research and have read anything I can find that you have posted on here and have done numerous grows of my own (all which pales in comparison to your knowledge)...really I am asking if you have a preferred method of maximizing your yield/the efficiency of your grow space.

I'm into plant nutrition, light saturation, 20 degree drop in temps at night, 20/4 veg photoperiod, etc. When you say you use some food without expressing the elemental values, I lose all interest as it means nothing in the real world only in cannabis forums that say they use this and that without knowing what's in them.

My fault, I should have known you are unfamiliar with the GH line (duh).

Only solid advice I can give you is to grow (and retain) the most amount of roots and foliage you can until harvest, cause that's all that matters. How you do attain that is your call.

Don't flush.

Good luck,
UB

Main reason I was asking is because of your topping knowledge (you do have a technique named after you).

I thought you might have an opinion as to which method is most effective in maximizing your space in terms of pruning/training the plants.

EDIT: Sorry to jack the thread for a second I hope you aren't offended psyte. I would be willing to take the discussion elsewhere if you feel it's out of place.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Cool, I'll check it out. You gotta understand though, just during researching on forums I've seen A LOT of people who are as sure as you are that their method is the correct way.

Apple and oranges. "My way" is embracing plant botany and good nutrition.....reading my plants. "Their way" is snake oils and gimmicks. Again, if you'd get away from these forums, pick up a book on indoor plant culture and cruise regular gardening forums you would be able to distinguish what's right.

The delivery system is not what's important - DWC, ebb/flow, soil, soil-less, aeroponic. It's the support for the plant's needs that's important. You can grow well in your grandma's combat boots if her boots are size 12D and well drained.

It's like a religion for people,.....

Especially when it comes to cannabis specific sales crap. Cannabis culture and all the businesses that support this cult is big business.

See that plant above? Done with a dime's worth of Walmart food and good top lighting that takes into account a plant's light saturation point and requirements, etc.

I tend to go with high N foods right until harvest cause that's what supports leaves. In fact my favorite food is a continuous release food, an encapsulated 12 month 18-5-9 with micros.

And for the record, I'm the guy that recommended Peters 10-30-20 over a decade ago to pot growers. They had never heard of it before, nor was anyone using a 600W HPS until I started pushing its efficiency value. I grew orchids and that food was originally designed for orchids. Based on its analysis and talking to old man Jack himself, it's a great food for cannabis but like any blossom food, it may induce premature leaf drop. IT WILL NOT ENHANCE flower production. Salts are their for their nutritional support, not production. It's leaves that produce bud.

Cannabis is nothing more than a subtropical foliage annual that flowers, it's a weed and has no special needs. Treat it that way and you'll do good. Treat it otherwise and you'll fail. Never known pot growing in the wild that all of a sudden gets a blossom booster from mother nature, AND, under normal enviro conditions cannabis receives far less light during flowering than in veg. So what do noobs do? Burn the shit out of their gardens during flowering pushing them with too much light and fertilizer.

Think outside of the box,
Uncle Ben

 

[DrFever]

well while back i watered my girls they were all green life was good and normally water every 4 - 5 days being i run lots of power well it was like 13th day soil was still wet plants were green i thought WTF so i flushed ( soil GRower here ) and low and behold my ph was 5.6 i couldn;t beleive my ppm were over 2000 ppm so i flushed till i got returns of 6.8 ph fed next day and plants took off growing as usual i was lucky if i would of had ph in check i would of smelled them burning from a block away ) so PH does matter
in al aspects of growing specially if your useing hydroponic parts A and B if it wasnt the case then why do so many hydro guys worry about ph ????
yes theres many things on any site that you should take by a grain of salt
yes Nitrogen is important in all aspects of flowering but needed less in later stages
what i get a kick out of is these so called guru's of growing MJ in reality are no bodys i mean comparing them to lets say a illegal grow op operator that yields in the tons would make them look silly

UB nice plat but yet again i see lots of smaller buds once thats trimmed that not overly impressive when theres buds like these that are NICE )

 

[bigjesse1922]

Yep, and here is my response to his PM:
When you say you use some food without expressing the elemental values, I lose all interest as it means nothing in the real world only in cannabis forums that say they use this and that without knowing what's in them.

Sorry, I forgot to fully answer this part. The best way to get this information is going here: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

Near the bottom of the page, it gives you the analysis for each of Grow, Micro, and Bloom. I am trying to learn more about plant nutrition myself and appreciate your time. I understand what you meant now about the PM's and such, was confused as that's not what I messaged

 

[psyte]

Ben, seriously, I totally agree with you. From the beginning my goal has been to learn how to grow in the most simple way possible. I absolutely agree people tend to overdo it. I was actually trying to keep it simple with just using a simple and cheap veg and bloom nute instead of like 20 different chemicals that a lot of other people seem to use. If you check the thread I also started out saying I was skeptical about water pH affecting soil pH in any significant way. I am thinking about this stuff, it's just that I have a shit load of different sources saying a lot of contradictory stuff. At this point I need to learn to sift out the garbage more than anything.
Look, I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot, I can clearly tell just from that post that the way you grow is the way I want to learn to grow. Your first posts just came off to me like just another know-it-all. But I appreciate you continuing to follow up and discuss this.

On that note, I have some idea of what you think I did wrong in the past, and I intend to look into the resources you provided. But is there anything you can recommend to help me out with the problem I'm having right now? Should I switch back to veg nutes? Clearly you don't think I should flush, so I'm hoping you can give me some advice because otherwise I'm kind of back to square one since what you are saying contradicts the plans I've been making to deal with this.

 

[Uncle Ben]

well while back i watered my girls they were all green life was good and normally water every 4 - 5 days being i run lots of power well it was like 13th day soil was still wet plants were green i thought WTF so i flushed ( soil GRower here ) and low and behold my ph was 5.6 i couldn;t beleive my ppm were over 2000 ppm so i flushed till i got returns of 6.8 ph fed next day and plants took off growing as usual i was lucky if i would of had ph in check i would of smelled them burning from a block away ) so PH does matter

What meter do you have and how often do you calibrate with fresh solution?

Jesse, call me jaded. If the info doesn't come from a bonafide, non partisan, impartial organization like a university I won't pay it much attention. Almost all hydro foods I've seen reverse the N and K values, and to date, no one has explained to me why. Why they would sell a "Grow" food that's intended for veg with a NPK like 3-6-9 is beyond me.

UB

 

[DrFever]

Ben, seriously, I totally agree with you. From the beginning my goal has been to learn how to grow in the most simple way possible. I absolutely agree people tend to overdo it. I was actually trying to keep it simple with just using a simple and cheap veg and bloom nute instead of like 20 different chemicals that a lot of other people seem to use. If you check the thread I also started out saying I was skeptical about water pH affecting soil pH in any significant way. I am thinking about this stuff, it's just that I have a shit load of different sources saying a lot of contradictory stuff. At this point I need to learn to sift out the garbage more than anything.
Look, I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot, I can clearly tell just from that post that the way you grow is the way I want to learn to grow. Your first posts just came off to me like just another know-it-all. But I appreciate you continuing to follow up and discuss this.

On that note, I have some idea of what you think I did wrong in the past, and I intend to look into the resources you provided. But is there anything you can recommend to help me out with the problem I'm having right now? Should I switch back to veg nutes? Clearly you don't think I should flush, so I'm hoping you can give me some advice because otherwise I'm kind of back to square one since what you are saying contradicts the plans I've been making to deal with this.

i am sure once you get a few grows under your belt your goin to do great it takes time to get good at it some ppl have a green thumb for it others tend to take longer either way getting your room dialed in and proper all round food and your goin to do well

 

[bigjesse1922]

On that note, I have some idea of what you think I did wrong in the past, and I intend to look into the resources you provided. But is there anything you can recommend to help me out with the problem I'm having right now? Should I switch back to veg nutes? Clearly you don't think I should flush, so I'm hoping you can give me some advice because otherwise I'm kind of back to square one since what you are saying contradicts the plans I've been making to deal with this.

And sorry from me for giving you the wrong advice. I guess my mind just couldn't accept the fact that the plant needed N when it's in Miracle Grow time release soil even though it clearly looked like it was N def., just thought that was being caused by the pH but the more I think about it now, if that was the case, it would look more than just N def based on my research, because N is absorbed more readily throughout the "acceptable" pH scale than many others.

Well, I am not above learning and am glad you didn't flush them to have to find out it was just N def.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Ben, seriously, I totally agree with you. From the beginning my goal has been to learn how to grow in the most simple way possible. I absolutely agree people tend to overdo it. I was actually trying to keep it simple with just using a simple and cheap veg and bloom nute instead of like 20 different chemicals that a lot of other people seem to use. If you check the thread I also started out saying I was skeptical about water pH affecting soil pH in any significant way. I am thinking about this stuff, it's just that I have a shit load of different sources saying a lot of contradictory stuff. At this point I need to learn to sift out the garbage more than anything.
Look, I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot, I can clearly tell just from that post that the way you grow is the way I want to learn to grow. Your first posts just came off to me like just another know-it-all. But I appreciate you continuing to follow up and discuss this.

On that note, I have some idea of what you think I did wrong in the past, and I intend to look into the resources you provided. But is there anything you can recommend to help me out with the problem I'm having right now? Should I switch back to veg nutes? Clearly you don't think I should flush, so I'm hoping you can give me some advice because otherwise I'm kind of back to square one since what you are saying contradicts the plans I've been making to deal with this.

My fault, I should not have singled you out plus I admit, I didn't read the entire thread. I've just seen this problem with every new crop of noobs. Here's a thread that might help (that's been plagarized all across forums):
https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/158144-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-bloom.html