Religious faithw v

[eye exaggerate]

Love it! You mean you don't test your magical powers with the Hogwarts test?

...platfoam noine en fee kotas - it's a simple test - don't forget your trolly, dear

 

[olylifter420]

zaehet thinks beliefs are only ideas...

funny cause when marines landed on the beaches or norway, the IDEA of storming the gun huts just seemed a bit crazy and improbable,

but with the action of one leader who charged without carrying about his own life led his fellow marines to BELIEVE they could take the beach and they did...

hope others can see where i am going with this

I'd be careful saying beliefs are purely imagination. Beliefs can stem from direct observation and reason just as easily as imagination. Just look at illusions; we see them and form a belief based on them, that belief doesn't stem from out imagination, but directly from our senses. I think you are making generalizations about peoples' beliefs based on "what you can think of" (argumentum ad ignorantiam). You cited your definition of faith, and followed by stating that 'fear' was the common variable between all your reasons for having faith.

What about people who actually just believe because they are convinced? Some people aren't scared, they just honestly think god exists based on the evidence. Just because you can't fathom an event happening doesn't restrict said event from happening.

Also, removing faith doesn't necessarily usher in "logical, intelligent, thinkers", it's not a dichotomy, and the denial of one doesn't validate the other, or vice versa.

 

[olylifter420]

dude, dont you get it... it is a personal experience...

something that you have not and probably will never experience...

just like pussy, it is a personal experience with you and your wife or girlfriend that others wont be able to experience...

i can tell you all about it, but you would need to EXPERIENCE it in order to understand what is being conveyed.

how do you know? what happened to convince you of such certainty that god exists?

 

[olylifter420]

NO, but what he is trying to say, if i may is that most atheists assume that most if not all believers lack intelligence logical reasoning cause of one belief they have...

im not saying you are guilty of that, but others do and that is just illogical on their part and frustrating on ours

You honestly believe that people assess and rate their own qualities such as intelligence by using something that they don't believe?

 

[Beefbisquit]

zaehet thinks beliefs are only ideas...

funny cause when marines landed on the beaches or norway, the IDEA of storming the gun huts just seemed a bit crazy and improbable,

but with the action of one leader who charged without carrying about his own life led his fellow marines to BELIEVE they could take the beach and they did...

hope others can see where i am going with this

After re-thinking this position, I agree with ZS that beliefs are essential just ideas. What matters is how we arrive at determining if the idea is worthy of believing as fact.

 

[olylifter420]

then everything is essentially an idea... everything we have ever known about this world and the universe is all an idea then... makes complete sense cause this "idea" can be manipulated in any way cause it aint true or can be made to be true...


a belief does not have to be applied to solely just religious belief... there are different types of belief systems out there...

After re-thinking this position, I agree with ZS that beliefs are essential just ideas. What matters is how we arrive at determining if the idea is worthy of believing as fact.

 

[olylifter420]

get this, if i told you, you just have to believe in yourself in order to accomplish a certain goal you have, how will you address this?

i can give you many different facts not ideas that i have from research i read on the subject, but you have to believe in yourself, not the idea to accomplish it cause the facts not ideas are only there for guidance

 

[Beefbisquit]

then everything is essentially an idea... everything we have ever known about this world and the universe is all an idea then... makes complete sense cause this "idea" can be manipulated in any way cause it aint true or can be made to be true...


a belief does not have to be applied to solely just religious belief... there are different types of belief systems out there...

Beliefs are just ideas until they can be tested and either falsified or confirmed.

You can believe in yourself, but until you accomplish something that belief may very well be unjustified, and therefore just an idea because it doesn't reflect reality. Likewise, you can believe in god, but until you prove god exists it's just an idea.

 

[olylifter420]

it is an idea to an atheist. For a believer it is more of a belief that they have experienced themselves in a way that cannot be replicated in any lab and something that cannot be understood by someone who totally opposes those beliefs..

and that analogy i used was not meant to be applied to religious belief.

Beliefs are just ideas until they can be tested and either falsified or confirmed.

You can believe in yourself, but until you accomplish something that belief may very well be unjustified, and therefore just an idea because it doesn't reflect reality. Likewise, you can believe in god, but until you prove god exists it's just an idea.

 

[Beefbisquit]

it is an idea to an atheist. For a believer it is more of a belief that they have experienced themselves in a way that cannot be replicated in any lab and something that cannot be understood by someone who totally opposes those beliefs..

and that analogy i used was not meant to be applied to religious belief.

I'd be careful saying the experience can't be replicated. Dr. Persinger's helmet creates god-like experiences that are indistinguishable from true religious experiences.

One of the problems I have with 'believers' descriptions of their experiences is their false sense of expertise they have about why/how they're experiencing what they're experiencing. To someone experiencing a phenomenon, it might seem very real, but unless they were hooked up to EKG, PET, fMRI, or some other equipment to see what their physiology was doing, it's impossible to tell whether or not the experience is genuine or not. Even then, with capturing the results it's impossible to tell whether or not a godly force was responsible for changing your physiology. That's the frustrating thing about trying to deny an un-falsifiable claim...

Laymen are not experts in consciousness, or brain activity despite how much they want to believe they are.

 

[PbHash]

Beefbisquit- and you can make an ass out of ones self by Assuming everyone is a layperson.

You say that you can't prove whether the physiological changes seen in fMRI are a result of God or not. What if I made a cocktail of drugs that replicated the experience? Say one of the subjective claims is a feeling of euphoria... Any drug that causes a release of dopamine will do this.

 

[olylifter420]

So basically all you are saying is that believers are stupid eh?



Sure man, no one is smarter then you atheist fellows... You all are the epitomy of all who seek wisdom and enlightenment, lol

Keep living in your closed world man

It makes no

I'd be careful saying the experience can't be replicated. Dr. Persinger's helmet creates god-like experiences that are indistinguishable from true religious experiences.

One of the problems I have with 'believers' descriptions of their experiences is their false sense of expertise they have about why/how they're experiencing what they're experiencing. To someone experiencing a phenomenon, it might seem very real, but unless they were hooked up to EKG, PET, fMRI, or some other equipment to see what their physiology was doing, it's impossible to tell whether or not the experience is genuine or not. Even then, with capturing the results it's impossible to tell whether or not a godly force was responsible for changing your physiology. That's the frustrating thing about trying to deny an un-falsifiable claim...

Laymen are not experts in consciousness, or brain activity despite how much they want to believe they are.

 

[sso]

you are a fuckmuttnut that believes in a supposedly stone age book

"blessed are the poor" and then goes to one giltladen palace with selfhating queers in frocks preaching about hellfire and sin

if jesus met ya, he´d probably spit in your face (remember him going berserk at the moneylenders?)

 

[sso]

and jesus was a moron in many ways, if he was actually god, then we are all fucked.


"give up all your possessions" (try doing that in a place with a 9 month hard winter lol..(we´d all have to move to hot and humid places)

 

[PbHash]

Oly- I don't think Athiest say they are all smarter and more intelligent than believers but they think that believers have a huge flaw in their rationality and critical thinking.

From experience I have learned that many Christians have a very skewed view of what scientific evidence has proven and believes. I have tried to have evolution conversations with some Christians and I couldn't because their basic understanding of how evolution happened is so biased and skewed. They think bc there is a missing link that evolution is disproven! Most people cant even trace their family liniage back 200 years! Religion has an agenda, that agenda is to keep the world in line with their Christian views and beliefs. Science has an agenda, understand how things work.

 

[Beefbisquit]

Beefbisquit- and you can make an ass out of ones self by Assuming everyone is a layperson.

You say that you can't prove whether the physiological changes seen in fMRI are a result of God or not. What if I made a cocktail of drugs that replicated the experience? Say one of the subjective claims is a feeling of euphoria... Any drug that causes a release of dopamine will do this.

I'm not assuming everyone is a layperson, just the few people (including myself) that are in this thread. I believe the point I'm making (or attempting to) is one from Daniel Dennett, a philosopher and "expert" on consciousness.

I would be willing to state that laypeople, in general, have already made asses of themselves assuming they're experts in matters of the mind.


There is always a position for god no matter how far we can push it? back with science. Even if we could pin point each reaction of dopamine with within our brains, and we could watch the neuro-transmitters reacting in real-time with the receptors, there's still someone who would say god made the neuro-transmiterrs release or would somehow invoke god into a seemingly natural, (and explainable) event.

Even if we could trace every atom back to the the big bang, we still can't explain away the big bang, which leaves room for god. It's frustrating that people remove the word "unexplained" and insert the word "god".

 

[silent1966]

first of all ,your concepts are all backwards,and confused,people are scared,scared of what ?FAITH ISNT PRETENDING TO KNOW ANYTHING,FRIEND ,it is the latent energy within us,actually that heals our sick self,per say,you know there is a god by the things around you,so therefore without excusses we are

 

[Heisenberg]

Lets identify the strawman in the room. Atheists say they do not believe in god. That is it. The list of what atheism says is very short.

Atheist do not say believers are stupid, god can be proven false, or that they are better than others. People say those things, people who might be atheists, but nothing about their atheistic stance can be blamed for their additional positions. Atheism is without content. It is simply the refusal to accept a proposition.

When believers say they believe, and atheists say they don't, that is the end of it. People can try to use their atheistic position to gain superiority, forgetting that even though each and every argument for god can be discounted, the very idea of god can not. Religious people can try to use their position to gain superiority, forgetting that there is nothing separating their propositions from fiction. If both sides simply stated their positions in humble tones without expecting it to go further, there would be no problem.

The problems arise when people want religion (or atheism) to be more than just a philosophical position. When religion wants power, influence, rules, credibility, ect. Religion deserves none of these things, and this is the point where non-religious people feel the need to speak up. If religion didn't try to acquire these things, there would be no need to say anything. If religious people simply kept their beliefs on the level of opinion, did not seek an undue entitlements, atheists would not be able to step up and demand anything, because atheism means nothing.

The best an atheist can demonstrate is, there probably isn't a god. The best a theist can demonstrate is, there probably is a god. Neither side has any right to go further than that. When religion says, there IS a god and he gives me special privileges, those opposed feel an intellectual responsibility to speak up. Some of those get caught up in the fact that when theists try to demonstrate their position from a logical or empirical view, they look like fish flopping around on dry land. This can lead some to believe that atheism is a special stance denoting intelligence, but the failure of theists to ground god in reality does not push atheism beyond it's original philosophical realm. When it comes to theism, the only consistencies are laziness and/or sloppiness and/or inconsistency, but just because atheists are the opposite of the theists, it does not mean they are automatically without laziness, sloppiness, or inconsistency. The position of atheism can be reached by many paths. The difference is, if we clear away inefficient thinking from the theist, we find no justification for the position. If we clear away inefficient thinking from the atheist, we still find a solid stance. Theism insults the dignity of mankind, atheism does not.

 

[Beefbisquit]

Lets identify the strawman in the room. Atheists say they do not believe in god. That is it. The list of what atheism says is very short.

Atheist do not say believers are stupid, god can be proven false, or that they are better than others. People say those things, people who might be atheists, but nothing about their atheistic stance can be blamed for their additional positions. Atheism is without content. It is simply the refusal to accept a proposition.

When believers say they believe, and atheists say they don't, that is the end of it. People can try to use their atheistic position to gain superiority, forgetting that even though each and every argument for god can be discounted, the very idea of god can not. Religious people can try to use their position to gain superiority, forgetting that there is nothing separating their propositions from fiction. If both sides simply stated their positions in humble tones without expecting it to go further, there would be no problem.

The problems arise when people want religion (or atheism) to be more than just a philosophical position. When religion wants power, influence, rules, credibility, ect. Religion deserves none of these things, and this is the point where non-religious people feel the need to speak up. If religion didn't try to acquire these things, there would be no need to say anything. If religious people simply kept their beliefs on the level of opinion, did not seek an undue entitlements, atheists would not be able to step up and demand anything, because atheism means nothing.

The best an atheist can demonstrate is, there probably isn't a god. The best a theist can demonstrate is, there probably is a god. Neither side has any right to go further than that. When religion says, there IS a god and he gives me special privileges, those opposed feel an intellectual responsibility to speak up. Some of those get caught up in the fact that when theists try to demonstrate their position from a logical or empirical view, they look like fish flopping around on dry land. This can lead some to believe that atheism is a special stance denoting intelligence, but the failure of theists to ground god in reality does not push atheism beyond it's original philosophical realm. When it comes to theism, the only consistencies are laziness and/or sloppiness and/or inconsistency, but just because atheists are the opposite of the theists, it does not mean they are automatically without laziness, sloppiness, or inconsistency. The position of atheism can be reached by many paths. The difference is, if we clear away inefficient thinking from the theist, we find no justification for the position. If we clear away inefficient thinking from the atheist, we still find a solid stance. Theism insults the dignity of mankind, atheism does not.

+REP.

Excellent response.

 

[MixedMelodyMindBender]

Wow this turned into a believers thrashing thread. Food for thought : For some, Faith , God and Faith in God are all Gifts from God. I think the longer you live the more you realize that you don't find faith, faith finds you via God.

If we are focusing on Christianity Jesus says in the bible that most are not going to heaven. That leads me to think that most will never get the gift of faith in God.

For myself, God is a matter far greater then the greatest thoughts conceived to the human cognitive. In any religion, God is Above the capacity of the human intellect. To sit and debate from a believers stand point is something preached against, and so by God himself. Its pointless. In my eyes, God has made it so, so that most will find out at the fearful stage of death, and the saved find out by faith.

A gift can be rejected. I'd rather take it, then to later wish I had took the gift. I would rather believe in God, then believe in mankind. I believe that if your thinking is that your grande enough to have "figured" out god, then you should have no problem stopping the one thing no one has done , but one man Eternal Death. 2 things are for sure in this life as we know it...DEATH...and GOD....Both You can ignore, but neither can be out ran. However, I am not a missionary, I believe in free will and free choice , thus think for yourself