A Tale of The Tape HPA vs 21st Century Flood and Drain

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
fuck that pet flora keep grinmdn this dudes got 19 posts and hes been dogging you the whole time, not to say his info isnt legit, but bro he was doing just fine before all these(fonzerellis) suggestions. and your still doing fine, but you got your sytem and you know your plants best, dont fuck it up on a whim, even if there is science to it.

i think if improvements can be made but you should play with plants in veg and try it then.... just my piece.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Guys, I've been at hpa (sans accumulator) for 5-6 grows now. Fonz brings things to the table that I had not considered.

Keep in mind i am repioneering the sans accum method. I do not have many of the answers. I really appreciate his input. Clearly to me, I have not yet gotten as close as I thought I would, so again, I appreciate Fonz's input
, especially since he phrases his suggestions so acceptably
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
well take your chances carefully pet. i dont mind fonz since he hasnt given flawed info yet, i just dont want to see you fail like you said Y0U are pioneering this. plus i have watched your aero systems since i joined which was one year b4 you, this is just a new profile, but everything ive learned about aero has come from you and im still a light weight, i got plans for a whole sytem drawn up to build off a 6ft stainless steel table, just dont got the cash yet. but anyways i know you know your shit, just do what you think best.
 

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
Thanks poly. The guys who know their shit use accumulators, solenoids, PRVs....

My stubborn ass believes I can get close to their results without all the extra gear. I haven't yet accomplished it. What I try to do is be open-minded when someone offers help/suggestions. Also, I work from home so I can closely monitor changes and adjust within an hour or two.

flame you should probably ask that question on the HPA threads. TrichyBastard has one that is loaded with 411. I use mist heads from Reptile Basics. I love them cause they come with articulating arms + they swivel

By 'rail system' I am guessing you mean NFT. NFT pods are great for smallish root plants, herbs, veggies... It was not designed for mj (large root mass) and especially not hpa. In hpa each root needs a good 1.5-2 cft of space for the atomized mist to swirl 360 degrees around each root
 

flamethrower1

Well-Known Member
Its actually the PVC fence post thing (stinkbuddies), so you do not think it would even work?
Thanks for the info though,
I just might convert to setup like yours, again thanks
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
lol i know PF if it wasnt for watching what you did to make your sytem i would be trying to do aero with a submersible pump..... exactly where im headed accumulator solenoids ect.

Its actually the PVC fence post thing (stinkbuddies), so you do not think it would even work?
Thanks for the info though,
I just might convert to setup like yours, again thanks

i could be converted... he told you what to look for a far as sprayer go, now you need a pressure regulator a, a high powered pump, a recycling timer, ECT its about 2000 min for a bangin aero sytem read up on it ask some other people this is a grow journal try starting a thread.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Thanks poly. The guys who know their shit use accumulators, solenoids, PRVs....


By 'rail system' I am guessing you mean NFT. NFT pods are great for smallish root plants, herbs, veggies... It was not designed for mj (large root mass) and especially not hpa. In hpa each root needs a good 1.5-2 cft of space for the atomized mist to swirl 360 degrees around each root
To be honest Pet, I don't think our little Hp world would be the same without you. I've always told you that whether I followed your advice or not, that I've learned a good deal from you and your experiences that you document. Admittidly, sometimes it's what to look out for, or not to do, but it's appreciated information nonetheless. The real irony is without you I probably would have been more stubborn and tried more ways to get around the accumulator myself. After seeing you already tried every which way I would have also tried, I felt like the work was done for me, and the results were there to see without going through all the trial and error. I appreciate all the willpower you've had to stay vigilant in your quest because I just gave in and went the accumulator route- I'm definitely too lazy and impatient to go through all that you have. So thanks, even though I went a different route, you have been a good help to me. :)
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
fuck that pet flora keep grinmdn this dudes got 19 posts and hes been dogging you the whole time, not to say his info isnt legit, but bro he was doing just fine before all these(fonzerellis) suggestions. .
?
fuck that? fuck what exactly? nasty. dogging? what is that exactly? If you can't understand the concept why even reply? The 5 second on 30 minute off is what the aero industry uses in lettuce production, I'm only adding info to the table, not demanding changes dude. Take a chill pill.
 

polyarcturus

Well-Known Member
?
fuck that? fuck what exactly? nasty. dogging? what is that exactly? If you can't understand the concept why even reply? The 5 second on 30 minute off is what the aero industry uses in lettuce production, I'm only adding info to the table, not demanding changes dude. Take a chill pill.
just let it go. there no problem between us just an observation i want to see pet do the best he can if he says he can make the adjustments and keep an eye on it then i trust his word, obliviously he is finding your info useful, so there really isnt much i can say. i was just an opinion. srry man dont take it the wrong way even though it was a fucked up opinionated statement, but if you read back pet straightened me out anyways.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Thanks poly. The guys who know their shit use accumulators, solenoids, PRVs....

My stubborn ass believes I can get close to their results without all the extra gear. I haven't yet accomplished it. What I try to do is be open-minded when someone offers help/suggestions.
I was in the same boat 6 years ago when I started following pod-racers thread on TAG methods. That's where I got started with aero. There was a fellow on the thread that suggested a Variable Speed Pump as opposed to using an accumulator and selenoid valves. Apparently you are not familiar with this along with others here, as they so pleasantly pointed out. Although some people fear to accept new and updated info only to depend on "what's been done before," and "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type of mentalities, there is a good chance that what you seek is no longer that far out of reach for you. There really is no need for solenoids and accumulator tanks when you run a variable speed pump or one that has been designed to run at 25% duty at a psi of 125 such as the one I like to use. It's basically a 6800 as TB pointed out but it's got a valve plumed in to allow any back pressure to "re-flow" back into itself to maintain a 125 psi and is able to run 24/7 without even getting hot or make any noise. In other words it doesn't constantly run to pressure and then shut off abruptly and turn on again to try to maintain pressure like the cheaper "older" model pumps do. Hence making it possible to run constant pressures without using the solenoids and tanks and all the other crap.

After a long hard and very expensive journey I took delving into all the parts of a real aeroponics system, this is the knowledge and reasoning that I finally came to realize. I'm glad you appreciate the fact that I am adding this info to the table for you (since it is your thread) and are at least somewhat open-minded enough to give new ideas a try before totally tossing them out with udder disrespect like some people here.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
I want to point out that Cannabis is not a lettuce plant. When you are doing anything other than SOG methods and keeping everything as short and as possible is where the timing changes. I am not suggesting going back to 30 min off times. Like I said before it's a starting point for lettuce growers. Lettuce plants have a much much smaller root zone. Therefore, as Cannabis increases in size and gets a larger root mass, I would imagine that the misting times would have to increase and the off times would have to decrease (or stay the same) to allow enough time for the misting process to penetrate the larger root mass. How do you get the mist to the middle of the root ball without over-watering the outer parts of the rootball without increase mist times as the root balls is constantly increasing in size? This is the question that describes where you are at right now. I try to never veg more than a few days before switching to 12/12 so I don't have a giant tangled mess of roots that the mist can't penetrate.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
This is only a personal opinion, an not meant to degrade anyone elses here, but I felt the Tag threads really hurt the advancement of aero. As much as they stimulated interest they also led people to bad results and around the truth of the better way to do things which has been since discovered. I remember the variable speed pump which probably was an improvement over things, however when Pod discounted an accumulator and the degree of control it could make a difference on is when things lost value and stopped advancing. This arguement isn't for this thread, as Petflora has been dilligently working towards doing the best improvements he can to an accumulatorless system, and I enjoy reading his journals anyway, buit just saying there are other trains of thought out there worth investigating for anyone who takes this sport seriously. :)

No need to quibble guys, were all here just to learn and enjoy our hobby with eachother... I am also sure the way commercial grown lettuce is done may be done that way for economical reasons for maximum profit and large scaleability, but surely could be improved on in a home environment by someone who doesn't care about cost vs. returns...
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
This is only a personal opinion, an not meant to degrade anyone elses here, but I felt the Tag threads really hurt the advancement of aero. As much as they stimulated interest they also led people to bad results and around the truth of the better way to do things which has been since discovered. I remember the variable speed pump which probably was an improvement over things, however when Pod discounted an accumulator and the degree of control it could make a difference on is when things lost value and stopped advancing. This arguement isn't for this thread, as Petflora has been dilligently working towards doing the best improvements he can to an accumulatorless system, and I enjoy reading his journals anyway, buit just saying there are other trains of thought out there worth investigating for anyone who takes this sport seriously. :)

No need to quibble guys, were all here just to learn and enjoy our hobby with eachother... I am also sure the way commercial grown lettuce is done may be done that way for economical reasons for maximum profit and large scaleability, but surely could be improved on in a home environment by someone who doesn't care about cost vs. returns...
I didn't know that anyone even tried the VS pump. All I know is that someone mentioned it in the thread. Since then I came upon the Mist King version of booster pump that is meant for misting terrariums. Since noise is one major factor that we are all trying to cut down on, I thought I would give it a try and I'm glad I did.

There is little difference between what PF is doing and what I have done for the last 7 years other than the pump. This is why I posted here in the first place. I still use on off times with a cycle stat the same way he's doing. I am still running a pump without an accumulator quite well. The only difference is the little valve inside the pump. I know that using an accumulator is necessary with the old style pumps, but that was the whole reason that the new ones were invented. It saves money and space. I really didn't follow the TAG threads, but it's where google led me when I typed in aeroponics the first time so I read through it. I actually don't get wrapped up in these forums very often, but I like to throw out some valuable insight here and there where appropriate.

What is this "truth" you speak of? What exactly is the best way to do aero? One that costs a ton and achieves the same results as one that costs a fraction of the price? I guess I'm not following you completely. I can't say I really know where the TAG threads went wrong because I only used the thread to pick up some ideas here and there. It was sure a lot of work having to sift through all the nonsense!

What I would like to know is how does using an accumulator make an aeroponics system better? When my pump turns on it is instantly at 125psi without having to "rev up" to get there. There is no drip before mist reaches full capacity. So I really see no difference other than the cost and space. The pump I use IS NOT A VARIABLE SPEED PUMP! I just thought I would point that out in case there was confusion. Those are damn expensive and pointless when Mist King has the perfect solution already. I'm actually surprised no one has heard of them before, but to give you first hand experience, they do work a lot better than a VS pump at a fraction of the cost. I bought 2 of them just because. I'm actually surprised that aquatech shared the mechanical information with me when I asked how the pumps worked without some kind of speed controller, but it's not that complex of an idea installing a pressure relief valve within the pump head for the water to recirculate within the head while pressurizing.

I am not telling you to go and buy new gear if what you have is working, because that would be foolish since the money was already spent. For anyone else reading this (member or not), it's only fair for them to know their options. When a solenoid opens, it still takes time for max pressure to be reached when the accumulator tank forces water through the unpressurized mist lines to get to the misters. There is really no way around this and no need.
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
I am also sure the way commercial grown lettuce is done may be done that way for economical reasons for maximum profit and large scaleability, but surely could be improved on in a home environment by someone who doesn't care about cost vs. returns...
What do you mean by this? I highly doubt commercial aero lettuce operations are economical! I'm sure they must use a rather large accumulator pressure tank since there is no other way to operate on a large scale. The way this can be approved upon in a home environment is by making it economical and compact yet still maintaining professional yields and a true aero environment. I thought that was the whole point.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
What I would like to know is how does using an accumulator make an aeroponics system better? When my pump turns on it is instantly at 125psi without having to "rev up" to get there. There is no drip before mist reaches full capacity. So I really see no difference other than the cost and space. The pump I use IS NOT A VARIABLE SPEED PUMP! I just thought I would point that out in case there was confusion. Those are damn expensive and pointless when Mist King has the perfect solution already. I'm actually surprised no one has heard of them before, but to give you first hand experience, they do work a lot better than a VS pump at a fraction of the cost. I bought 2 of them just because. I'm actually surprised that aquatech shared the mechanical information with me when I asked how the pumps worked without some kind of speed controller, but it's not that complex of an idea installing a pressure relief valve within the pump head for the water to recirculate within the head while pressurizing.

I am not telling you to go and buy new gear if what you have is working, because that would be foolish since the money was already spent. For anyone else reading this (member or not), it's only fair for them to know their options. When a solenoid opens, it still takes time for max pressure to be reached when the accumulator tank forces water through the unpressurized mist lines to get to the misters. There is really no way around this and no need.
Well, I'm a little curious now as I know about internal bypass, but only when used to keep the maximum pressure from going higher than the setting as opposed to a demand pump that would have a pressure switch that turns the pump off until it senses low pressure again. Anyway, besides having an accumulator, I also have a solenoid within 2 inches of each nozzle, so there is no time really involved in pressurizing the line, and no mist run on after a cycle. The problem when those things aren't controlled is the larger mist particles splatter and over wet things at the inbetween lower pressures, not to mention creating a lot more waste when doing DTW. So are you saying that with your pump, there is instant 125 psi pressure available to the nozzles, but it also instantly dumps with the zip drip and there is no run on? I'd assume there is still some time involved in pressurizing the lines to the nozzles, and you couldn't run the short mist times that my system can. (It seems I can get a full mist to develop and cut off within 3/10 of a second)... The reason it's been found that the ability to have shorter mist timings is that the roots perform better with a less defined wet/dry period- so instead of misting for 5 seconds every 5 minutes, you are misting for 1 second per minute, or half a second every 30 seconds. With the correct droplet size allowing constant mist in the environment to circulate, the roots can simultaneously feed and respire resulting in faster growth rates.

I don't know exactly how they do commercial lettuce, I figure not often aeroponically, but more the style where it floats on the surface of the nutes in styrofoam floats. I was only saying that a homebrew diyer could probably perfect his system for growing with perfect attention to each plant easier and would be more likely that a huge operation that may have to sacrafice quality for quantity or budget concerns. IE just because they are using a method comercially, doesn't automatically make it the way for the end all be all of perfect results. I'm sure they have a vested interest in efficiency however. It's true that the arguement that a large corporation with deep pockets and resources "could" and probably does use good methods and won't waste time on things unproven by science, but let's face it- they are in a business of making money, where we might strictly operate on the passion of having the most perfect plants and roots we can possibly grow for our small gardens.

EDIT: Also with an accumulator I feel there's a safety net of stored energy so if the pump failes or there is a power outage, alot of the concerns people have about aero being so easy to foul are dealt with. Now I realize you still have to notice the pump's gone bad, and that there are other ways to have backup systems, but by the time you do any of them, it seems the best way to do things cost and efficiencywise was just run an accumulator in the first place if you are interested in having the best results as a main priority. I have seen rootpics both with and without an accumulator, and I know what I like. Have you been able to get roots like the ones tree farmer posts for instance, with your setup?
 

Fonzarelli

Active Member
Well, I'm a little curious now as I know about internal bypass, but only when used to keep the maximum pressure from going higher than the setting as opposed to a demand pump that would have a pressure switch that turns the pump off until it senses low pressure again. Anyway, besides having an accumulator, I also have a solenoid within 2 inches of each nozzle, so there is no time really involved in pressurizing the line, and no mist run on after a cycle. The problem when those things aren't controlled is the larger mist particles splatter and over wet things at the inbetween lower pressures, not to mention creating a lot more waste when doing DTW. So are you saying that with your pump, there is instant 125 psi pressure available to the nozzles, but it also instantly dumps with the zip drip and there is no run on? I'd assume there is still some time involved in pressurizing the lines to the nozzles, and you couldn't run the short mist times that my system can. (It seems I can get a full mist to develop and cut off within 3/10 of a second)... The reason it's been found that the ability to have shorter mist timings is that the roots perform better with a less defined wet/dry period- so instead of misting for 5 seconds every 5 minutes, you are misting for 1 second per minute, or half a second every 30 seconds. With the correct droplet size allowing constant mist in the environment to circulate, the roots can simultaneously feed and respire resulting in faster growth rates.

I don't know exactly how they do commercial lettuce, I figure not often aeroponically, but more the style where it floats on the surface of the nutes in styrofoam floats. I was only saying that a homebrew diyer could probably perfect his system for growing with perfect attention to each plant easier and would be more likely that a huge operation that may have to sacrafice quality for quantity or budget concerns. IE just because they are using a method comercially, doesn't automatically make it the way for the end all be all of perfect results. I'm sure they have a vested interest in efficiency however. It's true that the arguement that a large corporation with deep pockets and resources "could" and probably does use good methods and won't waste time on things unproven by science, but let's face it- they are in a business of making money, where we might strictly operate on the passion of having the most perfect plants and roots we can possibly grow for our small gardens.

EDIT: Also with an accumulator I feel there's a safety net of stored energy so if the pump failes or there is a power outage, alot of the concerns people have about aero being so easy to foul are dealt with. Now I realize you still have to notice the pump's gone bad, and that there are other ways to have backup systems, but by the time you do any of them, it seems the best way to do things cost and efficiencywise was just run an accumulator in the first place if you are interested in having the best results as a main priority. I have seen rootpics both with and without an accumulator, and I know what I like. Have you been able to get roots like the ones tree farmer posts for instance, with your setup?
I would say it takes about 1/10 of a second to reach full 125psi and about 1/2 second to stop misting. The reason for this is that the misters I use do not work unless they have at least 40 psi running through them so when the pump shuts off the water doesn't keep coming out of the misters. They will drip a couple droplets if they are installed upside down from time to time.

Everything you have mentioned is 100% true. Having your solenoid that close to your mister is the ticket to have instantaneous misting. With the variable speed pump that I tried out there was a cycle up and down time that took a few seconds to build pressure and to unwind. But I got rid of my variable speed pump in place of the mist king. It has 1/4" outlets and I use 1/4" outside diameter tubing so the pressure build is pretty much instantaneous. Plus the lines are already charged with water when the pump turns on. The misting is instantaneous to my eye. I get the fluffy lateral root growth you speak of. Could you please link me to the photo you are referring to so I can compare? I'm in the process of starting a new aero grow so I can send you a few photos to compare later down the road. The variable speed pump was inadequate for sure and that's why I got rid of it. This new type of valve pump is da shit and that's no lie! I've had them for 3 or 4 years and I would never sell them. For $99 ya can't complain at all. What's the size of your misting chamber btw? I really like your short intervals you speak of allowing the mist to "always be there" kind of like a fogger system. But what type of timer allows you to have 3/10 of a second? My timer's lowest setting is about 3 seconds. When I first started out I was running 1 minute on and 3 minutes off intervals because I had read that somewhere and it didn't work very well. Long stringy floor roots. But as I turned the on time down and increased the interval I got the fluffy roots that defy gravity. With my system, the best roots I would get I would run 3 seconds on and 20 minutes off and as the plant size increased my off time would decrease. I tried to time it so that my leaves would start to droop slightly before misting. It was a challenge and I went back to organic soil for awhile until I found this thread which inspired me to get out the aero system again which is cool. I will be following this thread and posting photos along the way for comparison if that's ok.
 

Trichy Bastard

Well-Known Member
Well, it sounds like you have the accumulatorless route dialed in well, and I am sure Petflora is interested in combining knowledge with you in that. Here is a link to one of tree farmer's systems that I hope he doesn't mind me reposting: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/trees-and-aero.15936/

Google "ATC 422 flip/flop timer" and it can go down to 1/10 second resolution. Let me know how those compare to your roots as I am curious. He has some lovely roots and cool designs I love looking at, good little read too :)
 
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