Advanced Nutrients Question

fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
MOBee said:
If you cant afford AN dont spam people post. the guy asked what to get, either answer him or go get laid.
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I can afford any thing I choose to buy. I answered with my honest opinion, not spam. You however have contributed nothing what so ever.
 
redi jedi

redi jedi

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
I am not just into the cheapest available nutrients , but I am into just paying a reasonable price for a like product. I am not into paying triple or even twenty times the cost of producing a nutrient just to get a name brand when a identical product can be bought for less, or when I can simply mix it myself. That much is true.

At worse a good software package for formulating aeroponic/hydroponic or soil medium nutrients is sold world wide fron New Zealand for about $130 U.S. funds. That is a very easily recouped amount considering the low cost of the base fertilizers and chemicals use in mixing nutrients.

I am also not into the marketing hype that a product is better because they claim a better supplier of raw chemicals, (what a joke) or because they merely say their formula is better. AN as do their equal competitors very, very likely buy from the same sources if the are based in the same general area and also buy the same purity classification of chemicals as their competitors which is evident by way of analysis of the final products. There are just to many governent policies that have limited the numv bers of producers of products and there are just so many economical methods to refine those chemicals so the better chemicals story is chiefly marketing hype and the measurements of very n minute amounts of trace elements that differ from one source to another. Those amounts are definitely inconsequential or negligible to all but a pitching marketer.

When an analysis of that better product merely amounts to an increase or decrease of a major nutrient by 0.1 percent, that is not an improved formula or improved products used in production but merely minor formulation changes so as to say their product is different or better. That is just another game of the high dollar nutrient suppliers. It is merely unethical marketing and such policies are known or even originate from the top of those corporations. That is sad and happens frquently.

There are no scientific avantages held by one company over another. There are no secrets, no major advances or discoveries or unknowns to anyone but to the customers who do not have the ability to analylize the products. However, the majority of those products can be easily tested at anyones local university as nearly all of them have cooperative extension services where such tests are done free or for just few dollars.

The thing is I do independently test many of the retail marketed products as do many others. I have table tops and shelves covered with analytical chemistry/laboratory test equipment in my home, and as well as more sophisticated pieces of test equipment available to me at the University. The test equipment doesn' t lie and the field tests done by many, including myself, have clearly and repeatedly shown like analysis products merely provide like results regardless of the name on the label or the retail cost.

It is just the pits especially when you find companies selling things like Pythoff products that are merely a very dilute solution of RO water and chlorine bleach. Then there are the many other rip offs like the silica phopsphate solutions, the pH up and pH down products . And people buy that stuff at high prices. The nutrient market is no better but possibly worse.

I have yet to see any of the manafacturers of quality aeroponic/hydroponic nutrients just do something sensible like send you two packets of chemicals Part A and Part B, and simply tell you to pour one of each packets into a one gallon bottle and add RO water until full, them mix, to make 100X concentrates. They could very easily do that for a few dollars a packet and still make a profit. That would even take away their use of feeble excuses of high manafacturing costs such as: bottling, labeling, packaging and shipping when trying to claim a just reason for their extremely high prices.

In other hobbies such as reef keeping bussinesses set up just to sell bulk supplies such as chemicals because they saw that people were being badly ripped off. There you buy packages of supplement chemicals, and just add them to RO water. Duh. Or they will sell you just about every other major product used in bulk at greatly reduced costs. I think someone ought to do the same for growers. Let AN and like manafacturers find legitimate/ethical ways to make money rather than taking advantage of Pot growers. Commercial growers of other products don't touch AN's products or their counter parts products. They merely mix there own for 1/10 the cost or less. Simple as that.
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Tell you what...how bout you mix me up a nute cocktail of your own (since you have access to all the equipment to do so) and I'll try it out and let you know if its as good, better or worse than those horrible conspirators(LOL) at AN?..Put up or shut up...
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
I can afford any thing I choose to buy. I answered with my honest opinion, not spam. You however have contributed nothing what so ever.
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so, for someone not ready to start a chemistry lab in their garage, can you recommend any good nutrient line for a good price Fatman?

is it even safe for the average person to try to make their own hydroponic nutrients?

I am about to start a setup, and the only thing I haven't got yet is the nutrients (almost). Need more tips/advice on this




is this a good how to?
http://www.ehow.com/how_5349031_make-hydroponic-nutrients.html
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
redi jedi said:
Tell you what...how bout you mix me up a nute cocktail of your own (since you have access to all the equipment to do so) and I'll try it out and let you know if its as good, better or worse than those horrible conspirators(LOL) at AN?..Put up or shut up...
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It only takes a scale and some intellegence to mix up a given formulation. I could send you formulations (recipies)showing the exact amounts of fertilizers and chemicals (miconutrients) to mix just about any of the major manafacturer's regular product lines. I will only seend such information in a PM as I will not post it on an open forum. What is done with that information is up to the receiver.


Say the recipies for GH Micro, Bloom, Grow, and Hard Water Micro.

However, as you are being just a jerk off, I will send it instead to another more cordial poster that has asked for help. If he choses to share the information with you that is on him, not me.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
It only takes a scale and some intellegence to mix up a given formulation. I could send you formulations (recipies)showing the exact amounts of fertilizers and chemicals (miconutrients) to mix just about any of the major manafacturer's regular product lines. I will only seend such information in a PM as I will not post it on an open forum. What is done with that information is up to the receiver.


Say the recipies for GH Micro, Bloom, Grow, and Hard Water Micro.

However, as you are being just a jerk off, I will send it instead to another more cordial poster that has asked for help. If he choses to share the information with you that is on him, not me.
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maybe you could post a tutorial, with pictures, on how to mix your own nut's? That would really cool, and totally legal I think! Of course you don't have to reveal exact manufactures levels, since that may involve copyright or something. I'd like to mix my own nut's.

So I need a vent hood, or other chemistry safety supplies?
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
squarepush3r said:
maybe you could post a tutorial, with pictures, on how to mix your own nut's? That would really cool, and totally legal I think! Of course you don't have to reveal exact manufactures levels, since that may involve copyright or something. I'd like to mix my own nut's.

So I need a vent hood, or other chemistry safety supplies?
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Also, I wanted to add, what about General Hydroponics dry solutions?

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/maxiseries.html

MaxiGro and MaxiBloom look a lot cheaper than buying liquid form, and may be a simple solution for people wanting to simplify and not pay for huge costs of premix liquid formulas?
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
No special equipment needed except a scale. The recipe sent to you by PM is for GH MICRO and Bloom combined into a standard two part formulation. It is a 100X concentration recipe for 5 gallons of concentrate. I would wear latex gloves while handling the chemicals.

The only difference between the dry and mixed is the water. Part A, Part B and Trace Part B can all be combined together while dry. However the must be mixed to a diluted fornm and not a concentrate. They are merely being more practical in just sending a premixed powder that needs only be added to water. Smart move, hopefully they pass on a substatial price reduction, because the cost of shipping the fluid gallons aws a lot more expensive then the chemical costs. As long as they are sending it in a dry form it can all be mixed together. Liquid concentrations generally can not be mixed together until diluted or precipitates will form.

The recipe I sent you by PM if added together without water is jsut the same as the GH maxibloom but without PH balancing. It is almost 16 pounds of mix so the same as their 16 pound bag. I assume that their 16 pound bag should make 500 gallons.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
GreenThumbSucker said:
This might come in handy

For formulating your own recipes.
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Yes that is a good basic program. It does not do conversions from a standard percentage analysis to ppm's, and U.S. nutrient manafacturers are only required to list analysis percentages not ppm's. Nor does it sepearte the formulas into two or three part formulas, or tell you when you have exceeded levels and will therefore have precipitation etc.

However, the unethical manafacturers even avoid disclosing analysis percentages also when ever they can find a way. Or they post the data then close the site url's to the info. But if you have enough understanding to know standard ppms commonly used you would likely also know enough to not waste your money of premixed nutrients like AN anyway so their analysis would matter little to you anyway. I think MaxiBllom is selling for about $15 for 2.2 pounds. http://www.ecogrow.com/index.cfm/product/1415/mid/10/nid/40/home.html I think I can easily buy the ingrediants for 16 pounds for about 8 dollars.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
Yes that is a good basic program. It does not do conversions from a standard percentage analysis to ppm's, and U.S. nutrient manafacturers are only required to list analysis percentages not ppm's. Nor does it sepearte the formulas into two or three part formulas, or tell you when you have exceeded levels and will therefore have precipitation etc.

However, the unethical manafacturers even avoid disclosing analysis percentages also when ever they can find a way. Or they post the data then close the site url's to the info. But if you have enough understanding to know standard ppms commonly used you would likely also know enough to not waste your money of premixed nutrients like AN anyway so their analysis would matter little to you anyway. I think MaxiBllom is selling for about $15 for 2.2 pounds. http://www.ecogrow.com/index.cfm/product/1415/mid/10/nid/40/home.html I think I can easily buy the ingrediants for 16 pounds for about 8 dollars.
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thanks for your input fatman, I am, and I think other people like me, are really learning a lot about nutrients and how they may be in fact a giant ripoff. I never thought it made much sense for me to be buying 23 Liters x 2 of different formulas, the shipping alone on that is ridiculous. So, it does seem to be a large scale fleecing of pot growers, who are just happy to be growing their plants.

I wanted to ask a few more questions Fatman, if I may have your attention for a bit longer. I think many people are learning from this thread and could be a significant change to how people view nutrients in the future. I guess some question are

1) Besides this lucas formula, which is the core base of any growing regiment, do you think there are any other products out there worthwhile? (i mean, brand name or not, such as carbohydrates, vitamin B, fulvic acid, humic acid, or any other additives enhancers?) If so, are any of these easy to make, or would you recommend actually buying any product?


for example, this "Bud Candy" product has 30-40 ingediants that seems like it may be hard for the average at home do-it-your-selfer would be able to replicate.

2) I know the home made formulas aren't PH balanced, or have buffers like the big companies formulas. Should we accomplish the PH balance simply by using PH up/down after adding our solutions to water? to ge the 5.5-6 ph desired range for hydroponic growing.


oh, and 1 more thing, Fatman7574 wrote:

The recipe I sent you by PM if added together without water is jsut the same as the GH maxibloom but without PH balancing. It is almost 16 pounds of mix so the same as their 16 pound bag. I assume that their 16 pound bag should make 500 gallons.
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If my understanding is correct, Lucas Formula is a 2 part formula, ie: MaxiGro and MaxiBloom, in ratio 1:2 of Gro:Bloom

The recipe in the PM you send, would only be Maxibloom? So would it be appropriate to run Veg or is this a flower only formula, or is a separate formula needed?
sry if i misunderstood something, this is the first I've researched into Lucas formula and a lot of things are still new to me.


thanks for your continued input
 

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fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
Lucas formula is a combination of Micro and Bloom formulas as is the Formula I sent you. Lucas does not use the Grow formula at all and the Hardwater Micro is basically about the same as Micro but without the calcium. Maxi grow and Maxi Bloom are combinations of Micro and either Bloom or Grow. GH makes no complte 1 part formulas other than its Maxigrow and Maxi Bloom. It is extremely difficult comparatively to make up a liquid concentrated 1 Part formula of any strong concentration without some precipitation occuring. Maxigrow and Maxi Bloom are dry mixed 1 Part formulas (actually Two Part Formulas just mixed together)., where other wise they sell 2 Part formulas in water.

Most of the enhancers are really elements of organics being added to chemical fertilizers. Humic acids are basically just the acids leached from Humis (partially decomposed orgainic material) The most common natuaral source is from the sedimentation layers of soft brown coal or from peat moss. If you run water through your oil mix and the water comes out tinted brown you would then have water containing humic and tannic acids. Plants are very good at producing all the carbohydrates they need as long as they have adequate levels of CO2. Vitamin B is believed to be beneficail in rooting and seedling growth, although growth hormone preparations without Vitamin B have been found to be just as effective. Fulvic acid is the most active of the acids present in humic acids. It as are the other humic acids are typically only of benefit and therefore concern when growing in soil media. Most of their benefits in soil mediums are provided by chelating agents in chemical formulas. Humic acoids such as Fulvic are really of very little value in chemical nutrient formulas.

Of all the additives out there I would say some of the hormonal are of the most benefit but also the most health questionable. There are hndreds, likelt thousnads of growers using menstrual blood as a hormonal supplen ment as it is quite likely a lot safer than man synthesised hormones. Most of the preparations being cranked out now are all a result of old research work drug out and now reintroduced solely to make money. They were not deemed worthwhile after their initial "discoveries: reasearch and they are no better now. The few things that are of value are usually only of value to those not meeting standard good grwoing conditions such as adequate nutrient delivery, adequate CO2 etc. Then there are the things such as pH up or pH down, and Silica phosphate that are good useful products athat are just hugely over priced as is Phythoff etc.

Silica phosphate can be replaced with sodium Silicate at a huge, huge savings and pH up and pH down chemicals can be bought as the appropriatte acids or bases undiluted making for huge savings. So much of what Growers are paying for is simply 96% to 99% water. They are actually receiving only pennies worth of active ingrediants.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
GreenThumbSucker said:
Here is some stuff I came across on the internet for bulk production of hydroponic fertilizer at home.

This site has bulk formulas, mix yourself with complete mixing directions. Buy from 1 or 1000 lbs at a time, hehehe.

This site has a lot of bulk hydroponic fertilizers and other stuff

For those interested in making their own
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The lucas formula is

N-P-K-Mg ppm



I sent an email asking if they carried anything similar to this.


122-99-171-68
so it seems none of their premade formulas simulate this well.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
The Lucas formyla uses just Micro and Bloom. However he varies the ratios of each depending on whter it is used for budding or flowering. He does not use grow formula at all. The concenttation of the Part A or Part B remains the same. He just not mix it in the ratios of 1 to 1 but more like 1 to 2. Other than tha it is added until a specific EC is obtained. The Lucas formula does not add anything to the GH formulations.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
GreenThumbSucker said:
Here is some stuff I came across on the internet for bulk production of hydroponic fertilizer at home.

This site has bulk formulas, mix yourself with complete mixing directions. Buy from 1 or 1000 lbs at a time, hehehe.

This site has a lot of bulk hydroponic fertilizers and other stuff

For those interested in making their own
Click to expand...
The first link is to a listing of general nutrient formulas for use with varoius green house vegattable crops. The y list the nalysis of the fertilizers. No recipes listing amounts of fertilizers needed to misx their commercial formulations, nor do they list the ppm of each element in the finish formualtion.

They second link is a good link. It suppliess all the commonly usedfertilizers used for most formualtion and sell premixed trace/nmicro elements used at standard levels.
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
squarepush3r said:
The lucas formula is

N-P-K-Mg ppm



I sent an email asking if they carried anything similar to this.


122-99-171-68
so it seems none of their premade formulas simulate this well.
Click to expand...
Those numbers are ppm's not percentage ananylsis numbers. Those numbers can be entered into the Excel program at the prior given link and you can get a formula for specific set of ppms. Or I can post a recipe for that formulation with standard calcium and trace nutrients levels as a seperate Part as it is Lucas' formulation not GF's so they have no real basis for protest. But who knows what GH and AN will tolerate at any given moment.

Mixed 0.5 parts Part A and 0.5 Parts Part B the below is Lucas formula mixed at a ratio of 2 parts Bloom to 1 part micro. The same formula is used with the Lucas formula for bloom and grow. The only difference is in the EC of the mix.

2.5 gallons of Part A and 2.5 Gallons Part B with Trace Part B added to Part B.

If all is left in dry form it can all be mixed together as in the Maxibloom dry formula. However it would probably be better to keep the Trace Part B seperate and add it seperately. Just mix it in a 2 litter soda bottle and fill with RO/Distilled water. Then add 4.0 ml to each gallon of reservoir water after the reservoir water is mixed. A teaspoon is 5 ml. So a 20 gallon reservoir would need 80 ml or 16 teaspoons ie 1/3 of a cup. The total weight of chemicals(minus the trace nutrients ) is 15.6 pounds. So (15.6 x 16 ounces /pound) = 249.6 0unces (249.6 / 200 gallons) = 1.24 ounces per gallon of the combined mixed dry chemicals of Part A and Part B per each gallon of nutrient water mixed.

This is based upon a analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014

Things are easier in gram and liter measurements but as I have no idea of who prefers what units?

I'll post the Micro grow later if the site receives no flack from GH.

Between Crop King and Ebay all the chemicals are readily available at cheap em nough prices that AN or GH prices will seem ludicrous to anyone who wish to mix their own nutrient formulas. It cost more to buy your own individual trace nutrients but the are a lot cheaper in the long run. however ifyou only grow a few crops per year the economics of buying premixed trace nutrients is stll quite good. The Iron Chelate is referred to as SEQUESTRENE 330 FE CHELATED IRON and sells on eBay or garden centers. It is the most expensive ingrediant used at $10 per pound, so 2 cents per gallon of mixed nutrient. The other trace nutrients cost more but they are used in such small amounts there overall cost is low. At prices from Crop King and eBay the concentrate should run about $5 per gallon, so the total diluted nutrient cost will be about 5 cents per gallon. RO water usually cost more than that to produce.
 
GreenThumbSucker

GreenThumbSucker

Well-Known Member
fatman7574 said:
The first link is to a listing of general nutrient formulas for use with varoius green house vegattable crops. The y list the nalysis of the fertilizers. No recipes listing amounts of fertilizers needed to misx their commercial formulations, nor do they list the ppm of each element in the finish formualtion.

They second link is a good link. It suppliess all the commonly usedfertilizers used for most formualtion and sell premixed trace/nmicro elements used at standard levels.
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Now if only I knew how to translate those raw chemicals into something similar to the two recipes used for the Lucas Formula :wall: , I would be one happy camper, and less poor in the long run. (wink, wink)
 
fatman7574

fatman7574

New Member
fatman7574 said:
Mixed 0.5 parts Part A and 0.5 Parts Part B the below is Lucas formula mixed at a ratio of 2 parts Bloom to 1 part micro. The same formula is used with the Lucas formula for bloom and grow. The only difference is in the EC of the mix.

If you wish a liquid concentarte it will be 2.5 gallons of Part A and 2.5 Gallons Part B with Trace Part B added to Part B.

If all is left in dry form it can all be mixed together as in the Maxibloom dry formula. However it would probably be better to keep the Trace Part B seperate and add it seperately. Just mix it in a 2 litter soda bottle and fill with RO/Distilled water. Then add 4.0 ml to each gallon of reservoir water after the reservoir water is mixed. A teaspoon is 5 ml. So a 20 gallon reservoir would need 80 ml or 16 teaspoons ie 1/3 of a cup. The total weight of chemicals(minus the trace nutrients ) is 15.6 pounds. So (15.6 x 16 ounces /pound) = 249.6 0unces (249.6 / 200 gallons) = 1.24 ounces per gallon of the combined mixed dry chemicals of Part A and Part B per each gallon of nutrient water mixed.

This is based upon a analysis of bottled GH micro and bloom combined on a 1 to 2 , so: N=5, P=10, K=9 and M=3

Amounts are in Ounces: Final ppm each nutrient: N=176, P=133, K=300, M=100, Calcium=166
Part A.
Calcium Nitrate 75.3
Iron Chelate 2.25

Part B.
Mono Potassium Phosphate 104.8
Magnesium Sulfate 67.4

Trace Part B.
Manganese Sulfate 0.448
Boric Acid 0.085
Zinc Sulfate 0.009
Copper Sulfate 0.003
Ammonium Molybdate 0.0014
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The underline bolded part above should read:
So (15.6 x 16 ounces /pound) = 249.6 0unces (249.6 /500 gallons) = 0.499 ounces per gallon of the combined mixed dry chemicals of Part A and Part B per each gallon of nutrient water mixed. The trace Part B is correct as is. SORRY
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
GreenThumbSucker said:
Now if only I knew how to translate those raw chemicals into something similar to the two recipes used for the Lucas Formula :wall: , I would be one happy camper, and less poor in the long run. (wink, wink)
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GreenThumb, look above, that is the lucus formula.

Lucas Formula = Flora Nova Bloom (liquid concentrate) = MaxiBloom (powder concentrate) = 1:2 ratio Flora series Micro:Bloom

The recipe Fatman posted replicates it, with ingredients you can buy yourself.
 
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