Alcohol Tincture

nl3004.kind said:

the deal is this: regardless of what substance it is in, if it (by it i mean literally anything one is trying to extract including the good parts of the weed) is heated beyond the point of volatility (which happens to be below 155c for most of the thc spectrum), the thca, v, cbn, cbd ect is vaporized OUT OF WHAT IS LEFT BEHIND (meaning into the air, not into the glycerine. If the door of the autoclave is closed tightly, all that means is that the vapors will escape when the door is open. the autoclave is not a magical reverse distillation device in which somehow the laws of physics and chemistry are reversed... in fact, to me this method is similar to those methods of making cannabutter which say to cook it for three days instead of 3-6 hours depending on temp... the oil which you will end up extracting would be high in thc ect but not as high as if you had cooked it at 180*f for 36 hours, get it??
hobbes, back me up on this, bro!

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Right and Wrong. This is where it gets fun. saturation! You can oversaturate the air, sounds dumb i know. When its super humid, it rains to get rid of excess moisture...
In a sealed enviroment, we will ONLY see evaporation of thc untill the air in the enviroment is saturated. I have no clue what the saturation point is, and so i have no clue if this device you talking about IS affective, but in THEORY it could be. Also, if you look at atmospheric pressure, that plays a huge roll. when you create a vacum, BPs drop WAY low. Vacum distillation is actually pretty common for seperating chemicals with similar boiling points. SO, the flip side is, if you could pressure cook it, the BP of all the compounds involved would actually RISE. Shake a propane can, theres liquid in it.

In short, creating an enviroment with no/little air, lots of pressure, and no outside interference, you would see a dramatic decrease in vapors lost.

Also its worth mentioning if you just let the liquid cool before opening the pot, alot of the gaseous THC will settle again, but most will settle onto the sides and lid so it might not help much.

Its ALSO worth mentioning, that simply keeping a lid on the pot will promote positive pressure as water expands, it will also stop gaseous thc from escaping, keeping the air saturated. so tip number one would be keep a lid on the pan, and accept that nothings perfect.

ill end my 2 cent lecture.
Im on some adderol, clorzepam, and good ol jane and lovin it. Very thought provoking high.

PS. For all those of you who want to worry about ONE MORE THING. When you heat the solution the water will expand/turn to vapor and create a rise in pressure (if enclosed). If you RELEASE this pressure while the solution is hot, then RECAP the solution, and allow it to cool, the water will then condense and create a VACUM in the container, which could lower BPs. Seriously though, I wouldnt be concerned.

damnit! one last bit of food for thought.

Take a vat of oil and bring it up to 220 (waters BP but not oils) and add water to it. the water sinks, it then reaches the bottom and begins to get hot. It needs to evaporate but the oil above it is non-polar, and so the gases/water molecules cant reach air and dispell. this means the water super heats untill the pressure is too great and it explodes into a bubble of gas that rushes through the oil and splashes out the top, often burning french fry cooks.

The same happens with ethanol and butter (which is why i dont recomend using ethonal in ur butter mixture unless u know what your doing).

It stands to reason that if you could find a chemical that wont bind with water or butter or ethanol (none come to mind) AND will float on top of your solution, it could be used as a liquid lid. The problem is any liquid that isnt water soluble, nor soluble in butters/fats/ethanol... its probably fucking poisonous. I know that Naptha floats on water, but again, poisonous... plus liquids that are light enough to set on top of butter will probably have very low bps themselves, and will most likely be flammable.

the liquid lid would also not promote positive pressure, but if you could successfully remove air from the equation then pressures not a big deal anymore.

Originally Posted by savagepossum
...

Autoclave

If you have an autoclave, or a pharmaceutical grade glass beaker with threadlock top, than this next method is for you!

Take 1oz of primo bud, not crushed but de-stemmed and totally and completely dried out. Toss them into a screw seal boiling beaker. Then, you must absolutely ABSOLUTELY use thread lock on the beaker. If you don’t do this, its totally pointless to even try this method.

Put the bud in the beaker with 1 cup glycerine; boil in your oven or on an autoclave at 155C or 311F; leave for 36 hours. It should be boiling for most of this time, but air should not be escaping the beaker. Remove and let cool. Upon cooling it should have separated into a green oily substance (which you want to keep) and a black thick tar, which in this case tested at 12% THC. The green oily substance in this case tested at 88% THC.

The bud should have completely and totally dissolved into the glycerine. That black tar stuff is all the plant material. It can be tossed if you like… or you could try drying it and smoking it, its up to you. (Thanks to Quanium for testing this for us!)

Once you have your drops, you can soak some of your normal bud in it to give it an extra little kick. Or you can put a few drops in a joint, or just on the top of a bowl in a bong. But by far the single best way to do this is to put just a few drops under your tongue and hold it there for about 2-3 minutes. Will make you go absolutely mad. The better herb you have, the better this concoction will be.

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Thanks all for helping clear this out.
I put a quote (part) of message #21 by Hobbes. The part of the message I copied describes the autoclave method (AM from now on..)
I am not sure if it's coincidence but the temperature recommended is 155c just below boiling point for THC (157c) and other cannabinoids (source: wiki) and way below the bp of glycerine.
If we add to this the pressure coming from the autoclave (or pressure cooker) it should be safe to say that the idea of the AM is not to have the THC evaporate and then condense into oil again at the end of the process. That does not mean that evaporation of THC cannot occur.
Considering that glycerine is a solvent for THC at such a high temperature and for so long it should do a pretty good job at extracting the THC from the buds
Given that the temp is just below bp of cannabinoids and that pressure is applied this should keep all the good stuff in the glycerine.
Does this make sense?
Thx

nl3004.kind said:

that would be true if the boiling point of the glycerine was below 290* c which it is...

likewise the boiling point of thc is 157*c so unless you want to burn the glycerine AND the weed, you've got to extract it at less than the boiling/ vaporization point of BOTH.

this is why i defer to people with *actual* science knowledge like hobbes when i've got questions or come across half-baked web theories...

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yeah I'm a stoner psuedo-scientist fucktard douche.

I don't know if you're talking about me in this post but it sure as fuck seems like you are.

I'd like to think I have a decent grasp of science, I have a decent understanding of how molecules interact to the extent of being able to tell you that the THC is likely not evaporating, but if the boiling point is higher it will degrade the molecules into CBN most likely.

I dont understand your logic. 1) THC IS evaporating
but 2) what do you mean it will degrade? explain your logic as ive never heard of this before
Ive heard of THC being destroyed via heat, but not altered. I thought you had to bind it with something or heat it in order to change its chemical make-up. In the process of heating it Ive heard of active groups LEAVING the THC, but not changing or degrading. Usually its a good thing, we call it activating thc (even though thats not exactly what your doing).

WhiteWidower123 said:

I dont understand your logic. 1) THC IS evaporating
but 2) what do you mean it will degrade? explain your logic as ive never heard of this before
Ive heard of THC being destroyed via heat, but not altered. I thought you had to bind it with something or heat it in order to change its chemical make-up. In the process of heating it Ive heard of active groups LEAVING the THC, but not changing or degrading. Usually its a good thing, we call it activating thc (even though thats not exactly what your doing).

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I think I misworded... what I mean is when thc is in a mixture, for whatever reason, if it's something like a fat, it will stay in the fat and not evaporate. if it is in water, the water must evaporate first before the thc can evaporate, etc. sorry I'm pretty stoned so I may be explaining it kinda weird.

I've read many places that if you overheat thc it will degrade to CBN.... I don't know why, but this has been repeated time and time again. I overdid my oil one day, and it had a really light high like I could barely feel it, eventhough I used a shitload of trim.

so the fact that I still got high means that the thc wasn't destroyed, it was merely degraded to not so good cbn.

WhiteWidower123 said:

keep in mind boiling point and the point at which something evaporates are two entirely different things. one thing that you always have to keep in mind in chemistry is that a certain amount of EVERYTHING your dealing with is constantly evaporating away. Things like acetone that have low boiling points still evaporate rapidly below their boiling point. Hell, look at ICE, water evaporates off of ice. If you keep ice in a freezer with low humidity it will evaporate and form a fine layer all along the walls and roof.

the fact is alot of these things CANT be awnsered scientificly without some serious equipment. Im an undergrad chem student seeking my major in chem and then i want to go on to get a masters in Ochem (i fucking LOVE ochem). So my knowledge on chemistry, however limited, is still decent. And yes, i make my cannabutter using beakers, stirboxes and heat pads. I swear to god my recepe is in ml. And I still see variance from 1 butter to the next.

Im extremely interested in tinctures. Im desperately trying to find a way to enjoy my cannabis again. I just cant seem to get high back. My cannabutter actually receives complaints from people who say they where just TOO high and crashed/woke up high, but i have to eat a good 1/4 of my brownie batch to see any results (which arnt impressive).

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white: in relation to you seeking to "get (your) high back." there is one simple (but not awesome) answer and that is to take a "weed break" it is a very simple process, easily achievable by anyone and it is this: stop smoking, ingesting, or in any other way taking in weed for as little as 10 days or as much as three weeks, and then at the end of the time just smoke a little... your body becomes used to having it and then like everyone, it takes more and more and more to do the same thing... so if you stop for a bit, you'll be super impressed with how little it takes for you to get off... trust me, i'm a doctor...

poplars said:

I think I misworded... what I mean is when thc is in a mixture, for whatever reason, if it's something like a fat, it will stay in the fat and not evaporate. if it is in water, the water must evaporate first before the thc can evaporate, etc. sorry I'm pretty stoned so I may be explaining it kinda weird.

I've read many places that if you overheat thc it will degrade to CBN.... I don't know why, but this has been repeated time and time again. I overdid my oil one day, and it had a really light high like I could barely feel it, eventhough I used a shitload of trim.

so the fact that I still got high means that the thc wasn't destroyed, it was merely degraded to not so good cbn.

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actually poplars, i think that if that were true, there are a ton of folks in the medical community who would be over the moon with an oil with a very high cbn content...

some folks say it has better pain relief characteristics than most (high thc/low cbn) weed...

anyone actually try this out *and* get it verified???

white widower: you use this method (the autoclave method) at school? or the overcooked oil part? let me know if it actually works... there are tons of folks out there who need/ want nigh cbn/ low psychoactivity meds for their pain (thinking ms patients and more)...

poplars: i am not sure if we are arguing about the same thing but if you want to have a net-fight, perhaps you should look elsewhere... i respect you and your views, but am uninterested in a pissing match... ok?

nl3004.kind said:

poplars: i am not sure if we are arguing about the same thing but if you want to have a net-fight, perhaps you should look elsewhere... i respect you and your views, but am uninterested in a pissing match... ok?

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lol why are people so quick to assume I'm here to fight.... I was simply discussing, chill.

if you're talking about earlier when I thought you were calling me a psuedoscience dumbass stoner yeah I was annoyed but further discussion isn't a fight.

nl3004.kind said:

actually poplars, i think that if that were true, there are a ton of folks in the medical community who would be over the moon with an oil with a very high cbn content...

some folks say it has better pain relief characteristics than most (high thc/low cbn) weed...

anyone actually try this out *and* get it verified???

white widower: you use this method (the autoclave method) at school? or the overcooked oil part? let me know if it actually works... there are tons of folks out there who need/ want nigh cbn/ low psychoactivity meds for their pain (thinking ms patients and more)...

poplars: i am not sure if we are arguing about the same thing but if you want to have a net-fight, perhaps you should look elsewhere... i respect you and your views, but am uninterested in a pissing match... ok?

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I do what at school? sorry that kinda caught me off guard. I dont use an autoclave, or any kitchen utensils at all. This is ganna sound real dumb but i can show you pictures, I use a labtop stir box, heat pads, beakers, etc etc. My recepe is in mL. And it DOES work well, idk if its the best, but it works well for all my friends.

As for THC binding to fat and not evaperating. WRONG. Im not trying to be jerk, im just very confident. If THC binded to other chemicals and then took on a new BP, then you would NEVER lose THC. Fat DOES NOT evaporate. Take a glass a milk, boil it away, whats left at the bottom? fat. try it with whole and fat free and see the difference.

So if your logic proved correct, thc could grab onto fats, sugars, and salts, and NEVER be evaporated... which we all know isnt true

also, "it was weak, so therefore it must have been converted to weak thc, or i wouldnt have felt anything at all". Again WRONG. when a mixture hits a certain temp, all the low bp chemicals dont just SHOOT out... it takes time. If you put a batch of thc in a pot that was 800 degrees, the thc wouldnt be immediately destroyed, statisticly, after 10 minutes, there would probably still be atleast a TINY bit of thc. producing a mild affect.

Furthermore, Ive always heard CBN/CBD used to describe non thc cannibinoids. theres tons of them. In fact, if you smoked straight thc you would get very sick. I do hear about the thc/cbn ratio for medicinal uses, but again, i just assumed that meant thc:non-thc cannibinoid. In fact i have heard of thc:cbn ratios MOST when dealing with right off the plant bud. Come to think of it this is the first time ive ever heard it discussed in cooking.

WhiteWidower123 said:

I do what at school? sorry that kinda caught me off guard. I dont use an autoclave, or any kitchen utensils at all. This is ganna sound real dumb but i can show you pictures, I use a labtop stir box, heat pads, beakers, etc etc. My recepe is in mL. And it DOES work well, idk if its the best, but it works well for all my friends.

As for THC binding to fat and not evaperating. WRONG. Im not trying to be jerk, im just very confident. If THC binded to other chemicals and then took on a new BP, then you would NEVER lose THC. Fat DOES NOT evaporate. Take a glass a milk, boil it away, whats left at the bottom? fat. try it with whole and fat free and see the difference.

So if your logic proved correct, thc could grab onto fats, sugars, and salts, and NEVER be evaporated... which we all know isnt true

also, "it was weak, so therefore it must have been converted to weak thc, or i wouldnt have felt anything at all". Again WRONG. when a mixture hits a certain temp, all the low bp chemicals dont just SHOOT out... it takes time. If you put a batch of thc in a pot that was 800 degrees, the thc wouldnt be immediately destroyed, statisticly, after 10 minutes, there would probably still be atleast a TINY bit of thc. producing a mild affect.

Furthermore, Ive always heard CBN/CBD used to describe non thc cannibinoids. theres tons of them. In fact, if you smoked straight thc you would get very sick. I do hear about the thc/cbn ratio for medicinal uses, but again, i just assumed that meant thc:non-thc cannibinoid. In fact i have heard of thc:cbn ratios MOST when dealing with right off the plant bud. Come to think of it this is the first time ive ever heard it discussed in cooking.

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to the first part: i just assumed you had access to an autoclave (or were more likely than most to possibly be able to source one)...

the second: i know, that was not the point i made either, but... in fact i seem to recall that somewheres in the nih or nida there is a sample of high percentage thc oil floating around, scientists are still waiting (40 years later) for it to evaporate... i seem to think it was ed rosenthal who wrote about that somewheres...

third: yep, exactly right...

fourth: usefully and interestingly right once again...

fifth: outside of the stoner community (and i am hoping that you are not offended by being lumped into said group), there is a big brouhaha about the existence of synergistic effects of non-thc cannabinoids (cbd, cbv, cbn most notably as well as others) it seems that there are 70 plus cannabinoids which exist in varying amounts in weed, and there is a large amount of anecdotal evidence that strains which happen to be high in cbd/ cbn are thought to be more effective in treating spasticity and degenerative muscular issues and the like... it seems that the reason for you feeling very paranoid and dizzzy and perhaps pukey after smoking pure thc is because these other non thc cannabinoids lessen the overall effect of the thc... while not entirely positive as to the exact effect of these 70plus naturally occurring cannabinoids scientists are currently trying to study the effects of especially cbn/cbd on humans, especially those in pain... look it up, and you'll know i'm not bs-ing... see skunk magazine, high times, treating yourself (an especially good resource, as most medical journals refuse to print scholarly papers regarding cannabinoids and their positive effects)...

ok, scientist, help an old hippie out and try to see if cooking thc past the point of decarboxylation will make it degenerate to cbn, you'll probably win a cannabis cup if you can document it (and really isn't that better than a nobel prize?)...

ps. taking a time out from weed will work, and will help you appreciate it more when you come back to it, trust me...

AW FUCK, i had been writting for like 30 min and my fuckin browser crashed. Im going to speedily run through what I was saying (-the usefull explenations, if you have questions ask)

1) I do have access to chemistry lab tools but the chemicals and sheer danger in our labs means they are watched over pretty closely. getting caught = expulsion + criminal charges for sure. Weeds not worth that, or rather there are just much easier ways.

2) Cannibinoids definately have positive and beneficial affects. no argument there. The debate is if thc degrades

3) To determine if thc degrades to ANYTHING other than THC youll need to: extract it, isolate it, run an IR scan (infrared spectrum analysis). Apply heat / cook (put it through the conditions that it supposedly degrades at) and run another IR scan. If it only activates and doesnt degrade, we will see an almost identical IR with no activity in the carboxyl region. If it degrades into something entirely new, we will have an all new IR. We can find the chemical formula using the new IR, and compare that to lists of known canninoids to see if any of them have the same make-up. If they do, theres youre awnser. I really am shocked no one has done this. Isolation the THC is probably the hardest part.

4) You can decarb using a base as well if you choose, or liquer, or fat without heat. BUT each extracts in its own way, so be carefull. For example, a base will not extract thc, but rather the carboxyl group.

5) when you use a base to decarb thc, you are left with a AQ salt. I find this interesting because it occured to me just now that if you are creating a salt, it will be soluble in water and insoluble in butter. So check this out:

put weed. 200ml butter and 200ml water together (maybe a dash of ethanol) and add NAOH or any other strong base
mix heated for several hours to decarb
when this is done the weed will be useless, i would never use weed that had been soaked in a strong base such as NAOH but stick with me
seperate the butter
evaporate the water
what are you left with?
SALTS!! Now listen here, those salts are not pychoactive any may be poisonous... so dont eat it. BUT, now that you have this salt, you can determine the percentage of that salt that used to be carboxylic acid. Once ALLL THIS is done, youll know how much carboxylic acid (in terms of weight) was removed from solution. sounds kind of dumb, except that the amount of salt would DIRECTLY correspond to how much thc/cannibinoid was in the bud. In other words, this is a 4 hour cheap way to waist an 8th of bud if you ever want to find out JUST how good your shit really is.

6) the decarb method i described above has promise in actual cooking, its just that a weaker non-poisonous base needs to be found first. Ill keep my eye out.

7) I decided i wanted to look at the thc molecule to kind of get a visual for it in my head, when i realized i cant find a single picture online of non-carbed THC. Can anyone find me a molecular representation of inactive THC? Somewhere in the molecule will be 2 Oxygens linked to the SAME carbon, one will be a double bond the other a single. I cant find this in ANY representation. Thats frustrating.

I dont mind being called a stoner at all. In fact i take minor pride in being a stoner. I hate being called a pot-head though. So we're good.

9) Just found a THC molecule depicting the carb. Its attached to the benzene ring. But ultimately what i really discovered is no one can even agree on the overall layout of THC. there is one form that seems to have dominated the interenet and tatoos, but there are many other depictions (using the same formula) out there. I think that above all this proves that as of today no one really knows shit about the chemical workings of thc yet. Im worried that we found ways to work with it and THEN tried to explain why those methods work in order to create what we "THINK" is the thc molecule, if this is true we could be missing out on some amazing things by not... well... playing with thc in a lab.

10) taking a break from weed. lol. It seems my body has forced that upon me. Its wierd, I DONT smoke a ton, but I do smoke everyday (i guess for some thats a ton) and its never really had much affect on me (other than I get high) but yesterday I woke up and my pipe was sitting on the night table and there was some ash on a paper towel from the night before (typical stoner stuff, nothing out of the ordinary) but when the smell of the res and pipe hit me, i started puking profusely. And now I cant go near burnt pot (or just any smelly ash) without getting really sick to my stomach, it came from nowhere. I had to bag my bong and pipe completely. So im taking that as a sign to quit for a while, and when i come back ill probably stick with the vape. I only smoke maybe a gram a day though, i just dont know where that came from. None of my friends have had the same issue.

nl3004.kind said:

look it up, and you'll know i'm not bs-ing... see skunk magazine, high times, treating yourself (an especially good resource, as most medical journals refuse to print scholarly papers regarding cannabinoids and their positive effects)...

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Again, i believe your right, my concern is where those cbd/cbn chemicals come from, if they are already present, or created via degrading thc. I personaly dont believe thc degrades into CBN/CBD.

And as far as journal articles go, thats changin fast man. I expect to see some pretty huge scientific breakthroughs for weed in the next 10 years. For once we see a drug with medicinal value, few side affects, and the world is warming up to it, its only a matter of time.

The only reason we dont have super PCP and super Crack is because they where already made super by scientists and governments who wanted to use them as medicine. OBVIOUSLY they are a little hard to work with as a medicine so it was abandoned. POT most likely wont suffer the same outcome, once it hits the lab benches, its there stay. I truly believe that. Now we just gotta get it to a lab bench.

poplars said:

lol why are people so quick to assume I'm here to fight.... I was simply discussing, chill.

if you're talking about earlier when I thought you were calling me a psuedoscience dumbass stoner yeah I was annoyed but further discussion isn't a fight.

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i hope you dont leave the discussion entirely. sometimes miscomunications happen. Im just like you, people mistake me for fighting when all im trying to do is talk. Debate is way more fun than just random talking. Gets me in trouble with my g/fs all the time :/

the reality is when two people refuse to agree w/o scientific proof, atleast one or both of them learn something by time the debate is over. Scientists bicker and fight and debate more than ANYONE. fuck poloticians, they dont have shit, scientists atleast have to debate with FACTS.

WhiteWidower123 said:

i hope you dont leave the discussion entirely. sometimes miscomunications happen. Im just like you, people mistake me for fighting when all im trying to do is talk. Debate is way more fun than just random talking. Gets me in trouble with my g/fs all the time :/

the reality is when two people refuse to agree w/o scientific proof, atleast one or both of them learn something by time the debate is over. Scientists bicker and fight and debate more than ANYONE. fuck poloticians, they dont have shit, scientists atleast have to debate with FACTS.

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for sure, I should pull up a science book for this one.

Or not I guess...

Ok,
I think there is enough uncertainty on the Autoclave Method that we cannot rule out it works.
The only test is then to give it a try.
I will try to follow the instructions using a simple pressure cooker put in a pot with oil.
I will let you know how it goes.
It will take a few months: as explained before I need to relocate first.
Thank you all for your contributions and if anyone has results please post.
Thx

Just tried another dose of some tincture(hot method) alcohol base. I left in pickling for 2months in the dark. I added a little peppermint extract and lemon extract for flavor.
I added exactly 15ml of the tincture to a good cup of coffee with real milk cream. As before it took about two hours to really start going and I was feeling it for over eight hours, with about two of those hours being really intense. I like this Green Dragon probably more than any other delivery method.

I took a 1/2oz shot of my dragon last night. Within 30 minutes I was babbling like a baby. Talk about a good night's sleep though!

hell yeah warm method???