Are you Capitalist or Socialist?

And since you're obviously having a hard time grasping this, I figured Wikipedia would be a good place to start.

Dr Kynes said:

a contradiction in terms, like being a pacifist murderer.

socialism must by it's very nature eliminate the freedoms that allow a libertarian to exercise the liberty he claims as his birthright.

socialist governments inevitably descend into police states or caste systems. even now scandanavia is slipping further into the oppressive caste system of the middle ages where wealth and poverty are ones lot in life at birth, and upward mobility is nearly impossible due to government restrictions on innovation and industry.they have not indulged in oppression of the populace yet, which is good, but they are becoming a seriously stratified economy with the perpetual underclass surviving solely on the good graces of their overlords.

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so you mean capatalist governments don't descend into police states or cast systems, you must be stoned lol! look at america, what was segregation to you?

CC Dobbs said:

I'm ready, go on tell me how wrong I am and that you know how the world really works. I want to hear your thoughts on life being hard and how ya gotta pay your dues. Freedom isn't free? Is anyone ready to share that little ditty with me 'cause I've never heard that one before.

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Well I'm all ears, lets hear what you have experienced in your life!

Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system.

That being said I rated myself a 2 on the scale.

I dont think "pure" anything is likely to work.

Dr Kynes said:

yep, taking the marx out of marxism and redefining it to suit the newspeak sure does make for easy rightness.

too bad marx and engles defined communism socilaism and marxism quite sufficiently, and attempting to redefine the brand just makes the foundations look weak.

the gritty reboot to marxism with communism as the villain and socialism as the fucking batman is laughable in its stupidity. marx invented communism and socialism, not the other way around.

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marx did not "invent" socialism. its been around much much longer, without the name we give it now, and that is thanks to the marxist revolution.

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:

so you mean capatalist governments don't descend into police states or cast systems, you must be stoned lol! look at america, what was segregation to you?

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And that's where the libertarian argument falls apart. Government isn't the only way to restrict innovation and decrease class mobility. There are plenty of free market ways to eliminate your competition too. In fact, I believe there was more class mobility after the New Deal.

Not that I want to crap all over libertarians. I support them, just think they're a little naive on the economy.

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:

so you mean capatalist governments don't descend into police states or cast systems, you must be stoned lol! look at america, what was segregation to you?

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socialist states by their very nature sieze the rights liberties and freedoms of their people and bend those people to the state's whim. libertarians believe one owns oneself, and thus may own things, socialists believe the person belongs to the state, as does all property.

one can no more be a libertarian socialist than one can be a quadriplegic ballet dancer.

the fact that other types of nations may devolve into despotism is hardly an argument in favor of socialism which starts at despotism then moves back to the greatest oppression the people will accept before slowly and gradually reducing their expectations and eventually placing them in bondage at east german or soviet ukrainian levels.

segregation was an affront to the liberties, but it was no more a symptom of capitalism or democracy than hitler's death camps were a symptom of marxist thought.

billybob420 said:

You really believe Marx and Engles were the first to use the term "socialism"?

And I agree there is no agreeing to disagree, but we're gonna disagree whether we agree to it or not. I'm talking about Socialism as everyone else talks about it, you're talking about Socialism as Marxists use it, which is strange cause, you're not a Marxist. Marx was not the first to use the term socialism. If anything, he redefined it, as being a stage in "Marxism".

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so youre using the marxist term socialism to represent the happy fun times, good vibes, puppies and kittens, feelgood positive things of the universe while other ideas such as capitalism and communism represent what? all things dark and menacing?

feel free to spin the language in whatever way you choose, ill not argue with anyone who feels words mean only what he wishes them to mean and redefines them to suit his current narrative.

capitalism is not evil, nor is communism.

cronyism is evil in exactly the same way that socialism is, subjugating the needs of the people for the pleasure of those at the top of the ziggurat.

enjoy your fantasy world, ill not be dragged into it.

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:

marx did not "invent" socialism. its been around much much longer, without the name we give it now, and that is thanks to the marxist revolution.

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yes, marx created socialism, and communism as fully fleshed political theories.

the current incarnation of socialism is in no way what marx described but yes, that system is one of the oldest.

it is called fuedalism.

when the king owns the land and everyone in it, his word is law and his displeasure is imprisonment or death, thats a fucking fuedal monarchy. modern socialists are monarchists with different titles. these charlatans use marxist rhetoric to gain power then (as is obvious in north korea and cuba) establish a dynastic monarchy. some of these socialist regimes pay lip service to the marxist ideal of popular votes and elections for the poilitical seats of power, but just as in china, mexico, and all the rest, political power and wealth both accumulate in the hands of a few powerful families creating a new "noble class" with less fancy titles. the sons of the politburo as would be expected, are raised in privilege and eventually take their fathers places at the table of power.

but then i suppose a socialist apologist will describe the subtle differences between a medieval serf and a modern socialist worker who needs a pass to travel to the next town, has all of his food heat, and other goods rationed, and must needs do boon service for his liege lord before midsommer doth wane. feel free to explain the difference, except this, if a serf escaped his liege for a year and a day he was a free man, and a serf no longer. a socialist worker is a slave forever he can never return to the lands he fled without once again being shackled, or sent to gulag, or most likely, executed. as l,ong as socialism rules, the expat cubanos, north koreans, chinese, and others can never even visit their homelands without fear of losing the freedom they gained. so at least serfs had HOPE

Here is a little story told to me by one of my business associates in China many years ago.

The president of China and the President USA were driving down a road.
As they approached the fork in the road. One sign said "Capitalism" turn right and the other sign said Socialism turn left.
The American President asks the Chinese President which way should they go.
The Chinese President said with a smirk and a wink. Put your blinker on to turn left. But, we will really turn right.

End of story.



This is how things are in China today

Ringsixty said:

Here is a little story told to me by one of my business associates in China many years ago.

The president of China and the President USA were driving down a road.
As they approached the fork in the road. One sign said "Capitalism" turn right and the other sign said Socialism turn left.
The American President asks the Chinese President which way should they go.
The Chinese President said with a smirk and a wink. Put your blinker on to turn left. But, we will really turn right.

End of story.



This is how things are in China today

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Oh the irony, how true that analogy is.

then the American president put the hazards on and flipped the car into the ditch.

lifegoesonbrah said:

then the American president put the hazards on and flipped the car into the ditch.

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president Ted Kennedy? ohh i see what you did there...

Dr Kynes said:

so youre using the marxist term socialism to represent the happy fun times, good vibes, puppies and kittens, feelgood positive things of the universe while other ideas such as capitalism and communism represent what? all things dark and menacing?

feel free to spin the language in whatever way you choose, ill not argue with anyone who feels words mean only what he wishes them to mean and redefines them to suit his current narrative.

capitalism is not evil, nor is communism.

cronyism is evil in exactly the same way that socialism is, subjugating the needs of the people for the pleasure of those at the top of the ziggurat.

enjoy your fantasy world, ill not be dragged into it.

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My argument begins and ends with "Marx is a form of Socialism". That's it.

All the other arguments you seem to believe I'm making, you have conjured up all on your own.

I do not (and never said I did) believe in a Utopian Society, not with socialism, not with capitalism, nothing. There is no utopia at the end of the tunnel, no matter which direction you take. Life will always be a struggle and the human condition will never be perfect. Such is life.

I do appreciate the fact we've been able to keep this civil though. At least I don't think I did any name calling, if I did I apologize (sometimes shit slips, I guess I did say that thing about you not knowing anything, or that I "thought you knew what you were talking about"). Still, quite the achievement in today's political discussions.

EDIT: 1000th post

Mr Neutron said:

I wouldn't call that benefiting.

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You most assuredly didn't benefit from public education
But i am not going to blame public education for that