lets see what reaction I get to this.....

Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
When I say Decent person, I mean, He isnt tryin to fuck his kid like trumpo, he wouldnt hang with epstein, etc. Not that he cares about the every day voter, I dont believe that any of them do, MAYBE AOC, the Squad and Bernie, MAYBE but im not even sure they do.
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I think Biden is a career politician who cares about doing a good job, not look bad in history books, in a verifiable objective way. Unlike Trump who is satisfied when enough people merely believe he’s a great president so he can fool himself and stroke his ego. It’s almost like atheists vs christians. Facts vs fiction. That still leaves plenty of reason to disagree with Biden’s policies, politics and his position on the spectrum, but I have no doubt he’s trying to do what he thinks is best for the US, and thus for all Americans, voters and non-voters. That’s why I said his motivations aren’t that relevant. Who knows, maybe he just wants to be better than Obama, maybe he just wants to impress his wife, maybe he just dislikes Trump as much as you do and figures he‘ll do it himself then. To do any of that though, a decent man will actually try instead of lie lie lie. So with that I refute your original post. I certainly get what you’re saying though. It’s hard to not be cynical these days.

I’d too prefer Bernie over Biden but that’s not because I think he cares any more or less about voters than Biden does, just cause he too is a decent man and more my kind of left. Same goes for AOC (aside from the man part), but idealists just as much do that for themselves. I believe both can be true, politicians caring about themselves and the every day voters. In case of Trump though, only one is true.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
When I say Decent person, I mean, He isnt tryin to fuck his kid like trumpo, he wouldnt hang with epstein, etc. Not that he cares about the every day voter, I dont believe that any of them do, MAYBE AOC, the Squad and Bernie, MAYBE but im not even sure they do.
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Why would he not care. I see him somewhere in the Jimmy Carter end of things in terms of how he feels about people. If he was 10-20 years younger he would be a shoe in. While I know he is more middle of the road, what would your ideal president do and how would he achieve it given the rules of Congress and the slim majorities in both houses?
 
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IndooorGardnerOhio

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
I think Biden is a career politician who cares about doing a good job, not look bad in history books, in a verifiable objective way. Unlike Trump who is satisfied when enough people merely believe he’s a great president so he can fool himself and stroke his ego. It’s almost like atheists vs christians. Facts vs fiction. That still leaves plenty of reason to disagree with Biden’s policies, politics and his position on the spectrum, but I have no doubt he’s trying to do what he thinks is best for the US, and thus for all Americans, voters and non-voters. That’s why I said his motivations aren’t that relevant. Who knows, maybe he just wants to be better than Obama, maybe he just wants to impress his wife, maybe he just dislikes Trump as much as you do and figures he‘ll do it himself then. To do any of that though, a decent man will actually try instead of lie lie lie. So with that I refute your original post. I certainly get what you’re saying though. It’s hard to not be cynical these days.

I’d too prefer Bernie over Biden but that’s not because I think he cares any more or less about voters than Biden does, just cause he too is a decent man and more my kind of left. Same goes for AOC (aside from the man part), but idealists just as much do that for themselves. I believe both can be true, politicians caring about themselves and the every day voters. In case of Trump though, only one is true.
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Good points man, I guess I am an Idealist at heart, I want to see a president that wants to pass UBI, A 30 dollar min Wage(which would basically be middle class at this point), Streamline and make the approval for disablity easier, Help our vets, Universal Free Health care for all americans, etc. I am SUPER far left as far as what I want the government to do for the people, but NOT so left when it comes to them staying out of how we live our day to day lives. I dont belive the goverment should have ANY right to tell us what we can and cant do with our own bodies, up to and including assisted suicide, Making ALL drugs legal, and generally staying out of our day to day lives. If what we choose to do does not cause Direct physical harm to another person Or Intentional Mental harm to another person(such as stalking and verbal assault) then its not the business of the government.
 
I

IndooorGardnerOhio

Well-Known Member
printer said:
Why would he not care. I see him somewhere in the Jimmy Carter end of things in terms of how he feels about people. If he was 10-20 years younger he would be a shoe in. While I know he is more middle of the road, what would your ideal president do and how would he achieve it given the rules of Congress and the slim majorities in both houses?
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I dunno man, I just feel like Carter is the Last president we had that ACTUALLY did care about the people.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
Good points man, I guess I am an Idealist at heart, I want to see a president that wants to pass UBI, A 30 dollar min Wage(which would basically be middle class at this point), Streamline and make the approval for disablity easier, Help our vets, Universal Free Health care for all americans, etc. I am SUPER far left as far as what I want the government to do for the people, but NOT so left when it comes to them staying out of how we live our day to day lives. I dont belive the goverment should have ANY right to tell us what we can and cant do with our own bodies, up to and including assisted suicide, Making ALL drugs legal, and generally staying out of our day to day lives. If what we choose to do does not cause Direct physical harm to another person Or Intentional Mental harm to another person(such as stalking and verbal assault) then its not the business of the government.
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But, Republicans.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
Good points man, I guess I am an Idealist at heart, I want to see a president that wants to pass UBI, A 30 dollar min Wage(which would basically be middle class at this point), Streamline and make the approval for disablity easier, Help our vets, Universal Free Health care for all americans, etc. I am SUPER far left as far as what I want the government to do for the people, but NOT so left when it comes to them staying out of how we live our day to day lives. I dont belive the goverment should have ANY right to tell us what we can and cant do with our own bodies, up to and including assisted suicide, Making ALL drugs legal, and generally staying out of our day to day lives. If what we choose to do does not cause Direct physical harm to another person Or Intentional Mental harm to another person(such as stalking and verbal assault) then its not the business of the government.
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Where will the money come from? What percentage inflation would you allow, since there is going to be some when everyone makes at least $30? Once the property inflation bubble explodes what then? Just a few softballs to warm you up.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
printer said:
Where will the money come from? What percentage inflation would you allow, since there is going to be some when everyone makes at least $30? Once the property inflation bubble explodes what then? Just a few softballs to warm you up.
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Bumping the minimum wage has always happened alongside a proportional bump in the cost of stuff.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
Bumping the minimum wage has always happened alongside a proportional bump in the cost of stuff.
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I'm not aware that causation has been demonstrated and the correlation is weak if there is one. From a very simple empirical standpoint the assertion fails. The federal minimum wage was last increased in 2009. Inflation rates have gone up and down several times during that period.

www.investopedia.com

Does Raising the Minimum Wage Increase Inflation?

There are conflicting views on whether raising the minimum wage increases inflation.
www.investopedia.com www.investopedia.com
.

KEY TAKEAWAYS
  • Raising the minimum wage has been an issue for decades, with recent pushes to raise the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour.
  • There are conflicting views on whether raising the minimum wage increases inflation.
  • The central debate revolves around whether raising the minimum wage creates cost-push inflation as companies attempt to recover higher expenses through higher prices.
  • Some economists argue that raising the minimum wage artificially creates imbalances in the labor market and leads to inflation.
  • Other economists note that when minimum wages have been raised historically, inflation did not follow.

While arguments for wage-push inflation exist, the empirical evidence to back these arguments up is not always strong. Historically, minimum wage increases have had only a very weak association with inflationary pressures on prices in an economy.
 
I

IndooorGardnerOhio

Well-Known Member
printer said:
Where will the money come from? What percentage inflation would you allow, since there is going to be some when everyone makes at least $30? Once the property inflation bubble explodes what then? Just a few softballs to warm you up.
Click to expand...
its funny, Many other countries manage to provide these things without their cost of living jumping and they are not even the richest country on earth like we are. So if small countries without the resources we have can do it, why exactly cant we?
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
Good points man, I guess I am an Idealist at heart, I want to see a president that wants to pass UBI, A 30 dollar min Wage(which would basically be middle class at this point), Streamline and make the approval for disablity easier, Help our vets, Universal Free Health care for all americans, etc. I am SUPER far left as far as what I want the government to do for the people, but NOT so left when it comes to them staying out of how we live our day to day lives. I dont belive the goverment should have ANY right to tell us what we can and cant do with our own bodies, up to and including assisted suicide, Making ALL drugs legal, and generally staying out of our day to day lives. If what we choose to do does not cause Direct physical harm to another person Or Intentional Mental harm to another person(such as stalking and verbal assault) then its not the business of the government.
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Sounds all like common sense to me, or what should be common. Though the exact dollar amount is debatable, yes, yes, yes, and more yes. Double yes to the golden rule at the end of your post. Perhaps Trump's biggest crime is forcing the center to not go far enough left. It's an issue throughout the world. The center can't give too much to the left to avoid the right from gaining power.

The whole money system is made up, just numbers on computers. Just like we can change the meaning of words, we can change the economy. The US can easily afford to provide the basics of a decent living to all its citizens, it's a matter of will and solidarity. That last part is a bit of a problem, but then would it still be once everyone is provided with those basics...
 
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Sir Napsalot

Sir Napsalot

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
Let me first say, I vote blue, tho, if I am honest, NONE of them are far enough left for me, a few Like AOC, Bernie Sanders, and The Squad are Close, and the next statement DOES NOT apply to them, but DOES apply to all the rest of the elected Dems AND GOP.


I look at voting like this, Pick the person with the LIES you like best, be it blue or red, and understand that NOT A SINGLE DAMN ONE OF THEM gives a RATS ASS about you the voter and NONE OF THEM are gonna make good on what they "promise" to do. Democrat and Republican are two corrupt wings on the same damn bird. So pick whose lies you like best and hope they dont fuck things up too bad.
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I don't look at voting through such a pessimistic lens
 
GenericEnigma

GenericEnigma

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
I dont look at it as pessimistic, I look at it, based on previous life expierence, as realistic.
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I've found, in the face of party loyalty, that voting based on character is a good tactic. The trick is to determine for yourself based on direct observation - not by listenening to what others say.

This quickly leads to voting for folks like Carter, Biden, Murkowski, McCain.

2008 was a tough decision for me (Obama/McCain). That is until McCain tapped Palin. He sure made it easy for me to decide.
 
printer

printer

Well-Known Member
IndooorGardnerOhio said:
its funny, Many other countries manage to provide these things without their cost of living jumping and they are not even the richest country on earth like we are. So if small countries without the resources we have can do it, why exactly cant we?
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Minimum wage never has doubled. (assuming you have a $15 minimum) And the people making what they are making will not stand for people flipping burgers driving the same car as them. So all the other wages will go up in proportion. The employers would have to increase prices in order to pay their employees the higher wages.

On providing the things other countries provide, sure the US could. But that would be Socialism. A third of the country would not stand for it, even if it helped them.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
printer said:
Minimum wage never has doubled. (assuming you have a $15 minimum) And the people making what they are making will not stand for people flipping burgers driving the same car as them. So all the other wages will go up in proportion. The employers would have to increase prices in order to pay their employees the higher wages.

On providing the things other countries provide, sure the US could. But that would be Socialism. A third of the country would not stand for it, even if it helped them.
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I haven't seen a good analysis from an unbiased source that shows a strong relationship between inflation and the minimum wage. Personally, I think the claim is a truthy one and not one that bears up to careful analysis but you are the one making the claim so I'd like you to provide more than a truthy-sounding sentence to back up your claims. @cannabineer too.

But the motivation as I see it for raising the minimum wage isn't about the minimum wage, its about the decline in real wages and income that the US has experienced over time.

1703273981649.png


On several occasions, I have glibly referred to how it now takes two spouses working to equal the wages of a one-income family of 40 years ago. Unfortunately, that is now an understatement. In fact, Western wages have plummeted so low that a two-income family is now (on average) 15% poorer than a one-income family of 40 years ago.

The 1960's were a time when a blue collar single income household could raise a family and even manage to get a few through college. Minimum wage at that time was not what adult full time wage earners were paid, it was a bottom wage that mostly went to temporary and part time workers.

The author proposes something altogether different from raising the minimum wage to address the woeful economic state that hard working Americans are going through today. I don't know if I agree with him and I don't know if I can agree with a $30 minimum wage either. But I think its fair to say that we need to come up with a better plan than the one Reagan used when the working class's real wages began to decline. In part, the political instability the US is experiencing today is due to that decline. So there is a real and imminent threat that can be addressed by reversing the trend line shown in green in the figure above.

The extreme surge in inflation that we saw happen after 2021 was almost entirely due to skimming of profits made by the mismatch between rising prices and rising wages over the past few years. Prices shot up well past anything that could be justified by rises in cost that were only partly due to rises in wages. Go back and look at the record. Corporations posted record profits in 2022 and 2023, the stock market went up 25% in 2023. There is plenty of unearned income in that and maybe some forced wage increases along with price controls are justified. The word socialism to me isn't nearly as dirty as the word capitalism. Just saying, there is room for us to have a discussion.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
I haven't seen a good analysis from an unbiased source that shows a strong relationship between inflation and the minimum wage. Personally, I think the claim is a truthy one and not one that bears up to careful analysis but you are the one making the claim so I'd like you to provide more than a truthy-sounding sentence to back up your claims. @cannabineer too.

But the motivation as I see it for raising the minimum wage isn't about the minimum wage, its about the decline in real wages and income that the US has experienced over time.

View attachment 5353913


On several occasions, I have glibly referred to how it now takes two spouses working to equal the wages of a one-income family of 40 years ago. Unfortunately, that is now an understatement. In fact, Western wages have plummeted so low that a two-income family is now (on average) 15% poorer than a one-income family of 40 years ago.

The 1960's were a time when a blue collar single income household could raise a family and even manage to get a few through college. Minimum wage at that time was not what adult full time wage earners were paid, it was a bottom wage that mostly went to temporary and part time workers.

The author proposes something altogether different from raising the minimum wage to address the woeful economic state that hard working Americans are going through today. I don't know if I agree with him and I don't know if I can agree with a $30 minimum wage either. But I think its fair to say that we need to come up with a better plan than the one Reagan used when the working class's real wages began to decline. In part, the political instability the US is experiencing today is due to that decline. So there is a real and imminent threat that can be addressed by reversing the trend line shown in green in the figure above.

The extreme surge in inflation that we saw happen after 2021 was almost entirely due to skimming of profits made by the mismatch between rising prices and rising wages over the past few years. Prices shot up well past anything that could be justified by rises in cost that were only partly due to rises in wages. Go back and look at the record. Corporations posted record profits in 2022 and 2023, the stock market went up 25% in 2023. There is plenty of unearned income in that and maybe some forced wage increases along with price controls are justified. The word socialism to me isn't nearly as dirty as the word capitalism. Just saying, there is room for us to have a discussion.
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The split between the green and blue curves hits home with me. My monthly check is indexed to the blue, which means prices for almost everything have been and are robustly outpacing my buying power. By the graph, my real income is two-thirds what it was when I was awarded disability twenty years ago. Add the California Skew and it’s about half.

This ain’t freedom. It’s a mild sort of wage slavery. Shame Republicans are working like galley rowers to magnify that discrepancy. Then they conceal their cynical grab for our money behind glittering, empty slogans.

I think I’ll quit before I go full Shrubber.
 
Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
I’m probably missing something here but just checking: is in the US minimum wage not yearly adjusted to balance out inflation and keep buying power the same or better? Normally, or so I assumed elsewhere too, inflation => higher wages (including minimum).
 
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