Occupy Wall Street Day 11+

mccumcumber said:

Agreed, fucking with anonymous = disaster

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bedspirit said:

If your solution is that we should all do our homework and vote our way out of this mess, then I think you're the idealist. I doubt that all of America will suddenly become interested in politics and make good informed decisions. If we don't do something that wakes people up, I think we will continue to vote for the lesser evil every election. I realize that it's been said before and done before, but what else can be done?

I'm curious how deprave will respond to the notion that his ideas are conflicting. The thing that makes Deprave different than other activists saying similar things is that he seems to coming from the right, not the left. He believes in free markets and doesn't believe in the government stepping in to take care of us all. So while it may be an old path, I would characterize his shoes as new.

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deprave said:

Your right I am sorry I do that a lot to you, its a miscommunication, its just I have a hard time figuring you out, you and I are from different worlds. Its what I have gathered from your posts, anyway I apologize if its a gross misinterpretation. I would have to go look up all your posts and compile them really to give you specific examples of how I formed this impression but I don't have the time and neither do you so I apologize and lets just leave it at that, won't happen again.

Rightly so you give me a taste of my own medicine for which I just apologized above here, I lay this tactic down and I would appreciate it if you do the same.

Now...Instead of getting offended and firing back because I was a dick and deserved it...If you could address my main points/questions that would be high appreciated...It just astonishes me some of the things that you say, Im sorry to get upset but just look at the paragraph in bold for one, I will address this paragraph:


Why don't they just adjust their lifestyles? You ask...quite a neoliberal type of viewpoint here, very Bill O Reily'ish thats why I compare you two...My big questions for you is...Who is responsible in your view for the financial crisis of 2008? The better question...Who was the most responsible?

Most importantly....maybe they have ADJUSTED their lifestyles or don't need to, thats not the point, I am well off and Id just as soon join them. I am leaving my steady job to do so just because forunately I can...The problem is not WALLSTREET! The problem is NOT capitalism....its crony capitalism and corporatism...This is the source of the problem for every humanitarian issue...Including these policy makers you think so highly of...the drug companies lobby to keep marijuana illegal...there is one small example for you...money does more than just SWAY politics..a measely 30 grand and Rick Perrys giving little girls shots with untested drugs...and special interest put issues like pro-life/pro-choice/and gay marriage as the most important issue...Corporate interest put their interest first when for any politician to get elected he needs to make millions of dollars....I can go on an on but Id like to hear you answer those questions...This is not just America this is worldwide because the of the dollar.

1) Who is responsible for the financial crisis of 2008? Secondly who do you believe is the MOST responsible? Lastly who suffered because of it?

2) Why should lobbyist and corporations have strong political influence?

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The Ruiner said:

Personally, I think that the carelessness shown by the people in positions of power within the financial institutions deplorable..

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VILEPLUME said:

Best Wall St vid ever!!!!!!!

[youtube]rO_FVVHXEjM[/youtube]

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The Ruiner said:

My perspective is that the average American knows jack-shit about how the country REALLY operates, much less how the WORLD operates. There is just so much more going on than most people care to realize. It's all there, I mean, people can "plug-in" to the scene of global politics (and watch how it is intrinsically linked to domestic politics), and actually learn HOW to get real information - or, they can continue to swallow swillmilk from major propagandists like Alex Jones.



I would hold that there is shared responsibility of the financial crisis: The people who pushed the papers, and the people that signed them. Personally, I think that the carelessness shown by the people in positions of power within the financial institutions deplorable. But, at the same time people should have understood the terms of their mortages before committing to them, that's THEIR fuck up. As a non home owner, and a tax-payer, I CAN hold them both accountable, and say that their careless actions affected the nation. People expected to pay out their asses in taxes without ANY bailout (like me) suffered the most. As my generation will continue to pay out of our asses until we are ready to retire in poverty...but that's another problem no one gives two shits about.

And Lobbyist groups have strong political influence because they can corrupt the process by buying favor. It's just that simple. That's why VOTING is important, that's why paying a-fucking-ttention is so goddamn important. People cant just vote their congressman into office and then forget about them, there has to be some follow through. Lobbyist groups work because they organize, they contribute, they get in the faces of the lawmakers...in short, they are EFFECTIVE. They have clearly defined aims, they write policy, ready for signature. More importantly, they KNOW THE GAME. Most people don't know SHIT, and that's why the people will be fooled time and time again. They want quick fixes, they want someone else to do it for them. Lobbyists are dedicated, and streamlined. Just "wanting" our policy makers to change the policies they write will go nowhere. Until people realize that it takes playing the game, and playing by the rules (which obviously aren't that strict), THINGS WONT CHANGE.

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deprave said:

#1 Flaw in your entire argument is - The Government should work for the people, not the other way around.

first off, regarding the financial crisis, you blame the people! Just like they want you to do! Predatory lending was a major factor, the ones who are at fault by a factor of 99% or more is the financial Institutions and the FED. To keep it short: the financial institutions are the ones who ran the greedy scams and the fed enabled them, participated, and encouraged them, period.


On your lobbyist comments...you say it takes people paying attention, voting, and playing the game....laughable....you even admit that this will NEVER happen and "THINGS WONT CHANGE"....Theres an inherit flaw in the system when a million dollars can get you whatever the hell you want regardless of the outcome on society, the people, and the earth. Its happening all over this world, free democracy or not, money corrupts, money should be OUT of politics...When our elected officials need millions of dollars to GET ELECTED...Thats a problem! When Special interest and corporations control the vote, Thats a problem.

You say we should - HOLD OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS ACCOUNTABLE - by Voting! Really?! Do you really believe that people can hold elected officials accountable by who they vote in? Give me a fucking break. Again, Government works for us, we don't work for them.

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Coals said:

Your response is well thought out and rational, but it fails at this point.

I assure you there was very little "carelessness" at so called "financial institutions". This was well planned and executed with full knowledge of the outcome. There are many good books documenting this process. There are litterally hundreds of well known, well regarded experts that were screaming their collective heads off about this exact situation that was innevitable. Yet when it all comes crashing down everyone accepts the "no one could have possibly forseen this" aliby.

It is unrelented, free-market capitalism at its worst and was driven by the most collectively useless human instinct - GREED.

Lobbyists: Useless drains for souls. Litterally the tool that has been undermining the middle class for the better part of a century, thus destroying the entire economy that was built around it.

Lobbyists spent a collective 3.5 billion on how many elected members? 435. SO thats about 8 million dollars a peice, if distrubted evenly. And thats just the federal level. They control -not influence- all levels of government.
http://corporatejusticeblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/lobbyists-spend-record-35-billion-in.html

The economy will not recover untill the interests of the middle class are put first again. Our economy runs on consumption and its the middle class that does the consuming.

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hazyintentions said:

This guy is a testament to what the "Occupy Wallstreet" is about.

[video=youtube;uZmPWcLQ1Mk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmPWcLQ1Mk&feature=player_embedded[/video]

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The Ruiner said:

I didn't entirely "blame the people," you read that, because I wrote it, and that's the text to which you're replying. That's a flaw in argumentative strategy. In debate, when you fail to address arguments made, it is judged "negatively" for the exchange.

More importantly, it wasn't as if the lenders held their clients at gun point to sign the papers. Who was working for who?

I want to know what assurances you have, what gracious blind faith that you possess, for you to actually think that right now, there is any way that is a model that is going away anytime soon. There are few desirable, REAL WORLD methods to make a "lobbyist free" governance possible, they will fail because they are completely authoritarian in nature and will incite even further unrest... I admire your idealism, but reality is not with your opinion, or your concern. It will be what it remains. And if you can't see how that's for the better, I don't know what else to tell you.

Unfortunately, the main problem, and hindrance, to people actually having power over their elected leaders is that they display none, and ask for little obedience. Instead, people knowingly remain oblivious to their undertakings, except for the occasional mentions in the press, as if there were only enough information to report, in about two pages.

I just think that there are better, more appropriate ways towards effective change.



Well, the answer I think is to turn our country into something like Holy Mountain a la Jodoworksy...

The problem is that we ARE still consuming. People are buying all sorts of goofy shit, for extravagant prices. Filling the pockets of companies filling the suitcases of money to by given by lobbyists in order to fill the pockets of politicians. What to do? What's the plan for changing the paradigm?

I envision the "solution" proposed as a situation that will probably require that the politicians themselves will write the laws. I don't know how that makes sense in your world, but to me that sounds like a really bad idea. That's dangerous, I think. That is why I believe if ordinary people knew how to organize, and approach not just politics, but politicians, via voting, demonstrations, pointed activisim, not vague objectives, there would BE change, tangible change.

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The Ruiner said:

I envision the "solution" proposed as a situation that will probably require that the politicians themselves will write the laws. I don't know how that makes sense in your world, but to me that sounds like a really bad idea. That's dangerous, I think. That is why I believe if ordinary people knew how to organize, and approach not just politics, but politicians, via voting, demonstrations, pointed activisim, not vague objectives, there would BE change, tangible change.

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hazyintentions said:

This guy is a testament to what the "Occupy Wallstreet" is about.

[video=youtube;uZmPWcLQ1Mk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZmPWcLQ1Mk&feature=player_embedded[/video]

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deprave said:

Same old argument, Liberty is idealism and its not practical, you must be practical...for example...you can't let people cheat, lie, kill, hurt others, or steal, for example you don't take peoples social security/medicare away from people who already have it...There can be social justice in a libertarian society. Additionally..there is a practical implementation for every part of the liberty philosophy and by doing so we could eventually restore this republic and have it work in the modern world and in real world scenarios. Liberty and our republic has been lost piece by piece very slowly ever since 1910..It won't be easy to undo what they have done and it will take some time.

Republicans today now those are ideologues and their policies are not practical...Libertarian thats a whole different ball game...

Its funny how they have taken Social Liberties and Economic liberties out of the discussion. Republicans claim they are for liberty but THIS IS A LIE, conservative 'Values' are not about Liberty, Regan created this, liberty is the libertarian philosophy(duh), to be conservative truly means that you are for more economic liberties and less social liberties....

The democrats aren't even involved in this discussion either, the Democrats are under the guise of civil rights and social justice, while social liberties are what really attract people to say they are a democrat.

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deprave said:

If it didn't cost millions of dollars to run for federal office, and it was popular vote, then we wouldn't get corporate puppets running for president, any federal seat cost millions..thats why we have millionaire politicians doing whatever they can to make the most millions to get re-elected again in the federal office, to run for re-election a senator needs at least 4 million dollars so wtf hows he going to get 4 million dollars and keep his job when he only makes a tiny fraction of that as a senator? by "campaigning" HA! Showing up at a debate is not even important these days and they SKIP debates because .....corporate sponsors are the most important thing.

I happen to think your a a lot more of an ideologue then me actually...with a lot less ideas. Id like to hear your proposals? (Aside from 'quit whining' or the equivalent)

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The Ruiner said:

I gave you ideas already - and you dismissed them. I told you exactly what to do: Vote with your money, and learn the system to play the game. Apparently, those ideas have bearing in your mind.

The "ideas" you have are so backwards they make no sense whatsoever. Until you have an elected body that you TRUST to execute the desired reforms, you are setting yourself up for a total disaster (a point that you completely ignore to address). You are advocating reforms with no clue as to how to implement them, or more importantly WHO is going to do it. Again, ignorance to reality, in regards to how political work actually gets done, is your downfall. Until you can outline a CLEAR picture of how your platform has any legs to stand on, I will oppose it on principal.

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