Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours :)

Heisenberg said:

I enjoyed the exchange. I apologize for not being able to link to the study I mentioned. It is documented by Richard Wiseman in his book quirkology. His website lists this study involving charity boxes which you also might find interesting.



I often talk about human perception being prone to mistakes, and how it's important to consider this when judging evidence and beliefs. Richard's work provided us with a great video to demonstrate one of these mistakes.

[video=youtube;UfA3ivLK_tE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfA3ivLK_tE[/video]

Click to expand...

That Wiseman study is interesting! I'm going to pass this along to my tip jar friends, as well. The video you posted is one I've seen before at an Atheist Convention at Cal Tech, although it was children passing a ball and a gorilla walking into the middle and waving. It's our favorite example of the pitfalls of human perception. They showed several examples of the foibles and quirks of human perception, and I was blown away by my missing almost everything. Since then, I've realized my feeling of certainty does not necessarily mean what I'm certain of is true, and that I must always be applying doubt to my thinking process. It sometimes feels like a lot of work

Here's another cool example of the fallibility of the mind, a phenomenon called 'Change Blindness' (Sorry, I don't know how to imbed the YouTube screen here):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkrrVozZR2c

everyone fails these tests at least once. It is impossible to be aware of everything, although some are quite easy to identify.

Heisenberg said:

I enjoyed the exchange. I apologize for not being able to link to the study I mentioned. It is documented by Richard Wiseman in his book quirkology. His website lists this study involving charity boxes which you also might find interesting.



I often talk about human perception being prone to mistakes, and how it's important to consider this when judging evidence and beliefs. Richard's work provided us with a great video to demonstrate one of these mistakes.

[video=youtube;UfA3ivLK_tE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfA3ivLK_tE[/video]

Click to expand...

So god is real.

Why are you unwilling to answer in your own words?

Click to expand...

I am waiting to see what you say and what you said i was expecting. I am saying this is bias because of the way it is setup. The rules are in favor of atheists' as atheists will agree with atheists while atheists will not maybe sometimes will, but mostly will not agree with what i say. Me being in an atheist thread is putting me in this position, but i came in here trying and WILLING to participate, but as i slowly found out as the thread evolved that i am in an unfavorable position. No one has agreed with anything i have mentioned, yet i do play by the rules. No other believer in God has cared to participate because i bet they know it is a bias thread. How can you not see it? From the title of this thread "Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours " to the constant scrutiny of my posts. IF you pretend to think that this thread was not intended for believers, you are naive bias.

Influenced by other threads, this one is to show the stark contrast between believers and non-believers.

Click to expand...

In these "other'' threads, believers have been confronted and constantly questioned and ridiculed for their beliefs, so clearly this is another attempt at doing so.

on a light note, i finally learned how to multi quote.

I said manipulate.

Click to expand...

You obviously do not know the definition of manipulate, which can be synonymous with change

manipulate |məˈnipyəˌlāt|
verb [ trans. ]
1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
• alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
• examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
• alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.

One more time. You made an ASSUMPTION about what I meant by different. You can make different tests fair, or different tests very biased. I can give each student the same questions in different order to prevent cheating, or I can choose inherently different questions, which was what I meant from the first post. Different questions for some students can certainly introduce bias. If you don't understand that basic concept, then you don't understand the word and you should just stop replying because you are making yourself the fool.
The fact that you are arguing with me about what I meant and intended is not helping matters either.

Click to expand...

I cannot thank you enough for stressing ASSUMPTION. finally all can see what has been happening here and on other threads mainly towards my beliefs and myself. This is also what i have been trying to convey here on this S&S&P forum threads towards believers... non believers want to assume that since we believers believe in God, we have to pay for stupid shit we did not partake in and hate just as much as they do and our beliefs make us some stupid fucktard simply cause they disagree with our beliefs... what bias crap is that?

if you are not going to participate properly, please do not change the direction of this thread... if you do so, well the rules are the rules. I think everyone will bad rep you and report you.

Hepheastus420 said:

So god is real.

Click to expand...

olylifter420 said:

if you are not going to participate properly, please do not change the direction of this thread... if you do so, well the rules are the rules. I think everyone will bad rep you and report you.

Click to expand...

So why is it wrong for me to say that?

because that was not the OP.

Hepheastus420 said:

So why is it wrong for me to say that?

Click to expand...

olylifter420 said:

because that was not the OP.

Click to expand...

I was just stating my belief, but I guess I can't do that, peace.

iMO beliefs are past down from parents for instance race color and name calling of ppl like jews spics, rag heads who are we to judge that unless we were taught and from who what we see on TV, from our leaders
another instance is usa is a good one ok for years usa supplied afganistan with weapons to fight the russians and today there bad who is america to judge other countries doings another good one is libya why is america really there and for what purpose

dunno, seems to me, all the criticism, has been directed at the bible.

not at god per se (pretty unprovable)

we´d probably be dissing the koran for all the stupid shit in there (some really nice stuff in there too btw, actually more so than the bible, but still a stupid bunch of crap to live totally by(my opinion)) if we lived in that area and were raised under that religion.

well, we´d be dissing it, but in hushed tones, cause lot of the muslims live in the dark ages.

still, i have to say..

believers have been killing and torturing people for being right, millennia and longer.

we teasing you for being idiots and believing in that old hogwash is, well its kinda funny, you complaining about it.

cause, despite, you never having killed or tortured anyone, you still tout the book that inspired that crap..

thats so funny, why? cause, you cant really tout it, without Serious Editing

and that goes for All the religions, all the gods.

all the religious writings are full of serious crap.

talk about a loving god all you want, quote wisemen.

talk about life after death and heaven all you want.

but that stuff has little to nothing to do with the bible.

wanting anyone to believe in the bible...

well you better get them young and preferably stupid

now believing in god?

that can be a good thing, but i betcha ya cant call yourself christian without ignoring alot of the writings in the bible (and hide behind that you cant understand it cause gods so mysterious?)

olylifter420 said:

I am waiting to see what you say and what you said i was expecting. I am saying this is bias because of the way it is setup. The rules are in favor of atheists' as atheists will agree with atheists while atheists will not maybe sometimes will, but mostly will not agree with what i say. Me being in an atheist thread is putting me in this position, but i came in here trying and WILLING to participate, but as i slowly found out as the thread evolved that i am in an unfavorable position. No one has agreed with anything i have mentioned, yet i do play by the rules. No other believer in God has cared to participate because i bet they know it is a bias thread. How can you not see it? From the title of this thread "Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours " to the constant scrutiny of my posts. IF you pretend to think that this thread was not intended for believers, you are naive bias.
In these "other'' threads, believers have been confronted and constantly questioned and ridiculed for their beliefs, so clearly this is another attempt at doing so.

Click to expand...

What you seem to be saying is that these questions are designed to get to the truth, and so are biased against those who want to believe fantasy. If you think providing reasoning for your conclusions amounts to bias, then you do not understand self accountability or the way logic works in the field of knowledge. In fact this thread has not even asked you to provide any proof, it has only looked at why we believe things and our approach to solidifying those beliefs. That could mean anything from god to bigfoot to gravity. The only reason to fear these questions is because you fear the answers. You fear the answers will reveal the non-existent thought process behind your religious beliefs and expose the true motivation- comfort and conformity. If someone is confident and passionate about a belief, then they should not fear, but be eager to identify how these beliefs came to be. If there is a bias here, it is a self driven bias on your part, and not our problem.

You don't even agree that some beliefs are valid and others false. Some beliefs have evidence to back them up, while others do not. If all beliefs have equal truth value, then I guess you must give the same respect to someone who believes in smurfs or leprechauns as someone who believes in electricity. There is a good reason we do not take this approach to reality. Walk into any drug store and tell me you don't appreciate accountability and evidence when it comes to the claims of these medications. Would you want to take medical advice from a doctor who gives the same weight to the idea of witch burning as he does to cancer treatments? The truth is you depend on and benefit from these standards as much as anyone else, yet you wanna cry bias when we apply these standards to religion, something this thread did not do until you brought it up. You complain about us misunderstanding and distorting your posts, yet when you obviously misunderstand MP's test example, you argue about what he meant, instead of saying "I misunderstood". You want to pretend we do not give you the benefit of doubt, when in fact we do and that courtesy is not returned. You do not read our posts objectively and consider what they say, you read them in an effort to pick out what you interpret as unfair and then respond with the hurt card.

I thought we agreed that further discussion involving you in this thread is pointless, so why are you still posting? This thread is about bringing to the table your idea of the correct way of reaching beliefs. If you are unwilling to do that, then you don't deserve a place at this table.

No, you are wrong. I decided to keep at and not give up like pad said, so i continued and addressed what was asked of me, yet you continue to scrutinize me for participating.

If i dont sound as smart as you does that mean you are smarter then me or vice versa? No, it means nothing.

I fear no answer cause i have put the two together. God created everything and we are discovering the mysteries that He left for us.

mp set it up in a way where i would misinterpret what you said, why do you think his screen name is mp?


I do not depend on anyone like you say and i keep to myself. You continue to guilt me by association and whatever i may say to defend my case, it will never get accepted because of my beliefs and the fact that you continue to assume that im stupid and some fucktard that is lower then you. whatever bro, and the hurt card, you got to be kidding me,

you are ignorant to the fact that these discussions between believers and non believers will always be bias and will never meet in the middle. that is the funny part about all this.


what is unfair everyone dissecting what i say in attempt to corrupt it with your philosophical rhetoric.

Heisenberg said:

What you seem to be saying is that these questions are designed to get to the truth, and so are biased against those who want to believe fantasy. If you think providing reasoning for your conclusions amounts to bias, then you do not understand self accountability or the way logic works in the field of knowledge. In fact this thread has not even asked you to provide any proof, it has only looked at why we believe things and our approach to solidifying those beliefs. That could mean anything from god to bigfoot to gravity. The only reason to fear these questions is because you fear the answers. You fear the answers will reveal the non-existent thought process behind your religious beliefs and expose the true motivation- comfort and conformity. If someone is confident and passionate about a belief, then they should not fear, but be eager to identify how these beliefs came to be. If there is a bias here, it is a self driven bias on your part, and not our problem.

You don't even agree that some beliefs are valid and others false. Some beliefs have evidence to back them up, while others do not. If all beliefs are valid, then I guess you must give the same respect to someone who believes in smurfs or leprechauns as someone who believes in electricity. There is a good reason we do not take this approach to reality. Walk into any drug store and tell me you don't appreciate accountability and evidence when it comes to the claims of these medications. Would you want to take medical advice from a doctor who gives the same weight to the idea of witch burning as he does to cancer treatments? The truth is you depend and benefit from these standards as much as anyone else, yet you wanna cry bias when we apply these standards to religion, something this thread did not do until you brought it up. You complain about us misunderstanding and distorting your posts, yet when you obviously misunderstand MP's test example, you argue about what he meant, instead of saying "I misunderstood". You want to pretend we do not give you the benefit of doubt, when in fact we do and that courtesy is not returned. You do not read our posts objectively and consider what they say, you read them in an effort to pick out what you interpret as unfair and then respond with the hurt card.

I thought we agreed that further discussion involving you in this thread is pointless, so why are you still posting? This thread is about bringing to the table your idea of the correct way to reaching beliefs. If you are unwilling to do that, then you don't deserve a place at this table.

Click to expand...

olylifter420 said:

No, you are wrong. I decided to keep at and not give up like pad said, so i continued and addressed what was asked of me, yet you continue to scrutinize me for participating.

If i dont sound as smart as you does that mean you are smarter then me or vice versa? No, it means nothing.

I fear no answer cause i have put the two together. God created everything and we are discovering the mysteries that He left for us.

mp set it up in a way where i would misinterpret what you said, why do you think his screen name is mp?


I do not depend on anyone like you say and i keep to myself. You continue to guilt me by association and whatever i may say to defend my case, it will never get accepted because of my beliefs and the fact that you continue to assume that im stupid and some fucktard that is lower then you. whatever bro, and the hurt card, you got to be kidding me,

you are ignorant to the fact that these discussions between believers and non believers will always be bias and will never meet in the middle. that is the funny part about all this.


what is unfair everyone dissecting what i say in attempt to corrupt it with your philosophical rhetoric.




[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Click to expand...

Your are surprised that in a thread who's title states "be prepared to answer for yours" that people are examining what you say? If you fear no answers, then why have you not attempted to answer the questions in the OP? You seem to have time to elaborate on everything else. I have never called you any names or said that I am above you. I have said that you don't understand, are inconsistent, or fail to consider what people say objectively. Insinuating that I have called you a fucktard and lorded superiority over you when I haven't is a great example of playing the hurt card. This was not a discussion between believers and non-believers until you framed it that way, and now you want to cry foul. This would be an example of wanting to have the benefit of doubt while not extending it to others. You have added nothing to this discussion but distraction and unfairness. If you don't want what you say to be dissected, stop posting. If you want what you say to survive dissection, apply some thought before you say it.

You live in a world where when someone says you are confused or inconsistent you can simply say 'nu-uh' without considering their words. Your brain immediately starts listing all the things people have against you and all the reasons they are attacking what you say, except it fails to consider that they might be right. In your world ALL criticism is due to prejudice, because that is what your world has taught you, and so your sole response is to identify and cry prejudice even if there is none. You are reluctant to judge the beliefs of others because you feel you might be participating in prejudice yourself. Your thinking is sloppy and your are not thorough, and this is not an indication of low intelligence, but of a lazy and fearful approach to truth.

If you fear no answers, then why have you not attempted to answer the questions in the OP?

Click to expand...

I believe in what i believe in because when i was in high school i was a part of the FCA(fellowship of Christian Athletes) on a retreat that i went on, i was able to find God and truly come to one with Him. it is a highly spiritual thing that i cannot explain, you would have to experience it and believe with all your heart. I spoke in tongue and was enlightened by this immense energy just coursing through my body. Again, it is something that you would have to experience yourself and BELIEVE 100% with your heart to be one with God.

i believe that addresses what the OP is seeking, but you consider it nothing because you find nothing in it that you can agree with. That is not my problem, that is yours and if you cannot understand it, then you are the one not taking to your own advice.

fail to consider what people say objectively.

Click to expand...

it might seem that way to you because you are not me and you have differing beliefs then my own

This was not a discussion between believers and non-believers

Click to expand...

that is silly of you to say that when the OP clearly states what it is and what it wants

while not extending it to others

Click to expand...

how have i not and no one has extended nothing my way.

apply some thought before you say it.

Click to expand...

i do, but since you do not agree with me in any way or my beliefs, you already willingly know that you will not agree with me no matter how smart it may be worded. You spend so much time putting thought into what you say that you ignore what i have shared.

Your brain immediately starts listing all the things people have against you and all the reasons they are attacking what you say, except it fails to consider that they might be right.

Click to expand...

this is funny and stupid of you to say. Again, assuming things about a person you do not know is silly. WOuld it bother you that before i took my anthropology classes my mind set was set in stone that God was the only thing able? Or would it bother you that since then, i have expanded my knowledge of how things work and reasons behind them, yet i keep God as my Lord and savior? Yes it will, cause you assume these things about me without considering who we are as a person.

In your world ALL criticism is due to prejudice, because that is what your world has taught you, and so your sole response is to identify and cry prejudice even if there is none

Click to expand...

Its funny that you use prejiduce, i dont even know what that means, but i assume you have assumed that of me due to my posts.

olylifter420 said:

I am waiting to see what you say and what you said i was expecting. I am saying this is bias because of the way it is setup. The rules are in favor of atheists' as atheists will agree with atheists while atheists will not maybe sometimes will, but mostly will not agree with what i say. Me being in an atheist thread is putting me in this position, but i came in here trying and WILLING to participate, but as i slowly found out as the thread evolved that i am in an unfavorable position. No one has agreed with anything i have mentioned, yet i do play by the rules. No other believer in God has cared to participate because i bet they know it is a bias thread. How can you not see it? From the title of this thread "Question My Beliefs, But Be Prepared To Answer For Yours " to the constant scrutiny of my posts. IF you pretend to think that this thread was not intended for believers, you are naive bias.
In these "other'' threads, believers have been confronted and constantly questioned and ridiculed for their beliefs, so clearly this is another attempt at doing so.

on a light note, i finally learned how to multi quote.


You obviously do not know the definition of manipulate, which can be synonymous with change

manipulate |məˈnipyəˌlāt|
verb [ trans. ]
1 handle or control (a tool, mechanism, etc.), typically in a skillful manner : he manipulated the dials of the set.
• alter, edit, or move (text or data) on a computer.
• examine or treat (a part of the body) by feeling or moving it with the hand : a system of healing based on manipulating the ligaments of the spine.
2 control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously : the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group.
• alter (data) or present (statistics) so as to mislead.






I cannot thank you enough for stressing ASSUMPTION. finally all can see what has been happening here and on other threads mainly towards my beliefs and myself. This is also what i have been trying to convey here on this S&S&P forum threads towards believers... non believers want to assume that since we believers believe in God, we have to pay for stupid shit we did not partake in and hate just as much as they do and our beliefs make us some stupid fucktard simply cause they disagree with our beliefs... what bias crap is that?

Click to expand...

Ignoring the other incorrect bullshit you just posted, how about if you detail why you think this thread is designed for atheists when the OP never once mentioned religion or god? Unless you are conceding that your beliefs are not defensible, then I actually don't understand why you think this way. You can use any beliefs you may or may not have. I personally have some superstitions when I play poker that I really try to shed. These beliefs of mine cannot be defended in a logical way and I recognize that.
You are the one that brought god into the discussion. You were free to choose any beliefs and explain why you believe or have stopped believing. You have not answered the basic questions like if there is a right way to evaluate truth claims or if you believe that comfort is more important than truth. These questions can be answered by anyone, regardless of the position they hold on god. You haven't answered a single one yet continue to participate in this thread and whine and cry about unfairness when you have not demonstrated an such thing. Repetition of a claim is not support for that claim.

You mischaracterize the OP, you misuse and misunderstand the word bias, you are a complainer and a whiner and have added nothing of substance to this discussion. I think the only reason you are posting is to create these red herrings in order to derail this thread that you dislike. Forget about what Pad said, I think you are unteachable and I would prefer if you GTFO. Obviously you can stay if you want, it's just my preference as I rather have this conversation with people that actually reads and comprehends what others are posting.

Ignoring the other incorrect bullshit you just posted,

Click to expand...

there you go, ignoring things i contribute. you discredit them because they answer what want, but not in the way you want..

You were free to choose any beliefs and explain why you believe or have stopped believing.

Click to expand...

mp, you cant be serious right? A thread posted in a spirituality forum is not for God believers and non God believers? Wow, this must be the new toke and talk.

I would prefer if you GTFO. Obviously you can stay if you want, it's just my preference as I rather have this conversation with people that actually reads and comprehends what others are posting.

Click to expand...

why the bad temper? I do comprehend what you post, i believe you are the one who does not understand what i post... why might it be? cause you are an atheist and im a believer of God who has given you what the OP wanted but you continue to dislike what i share... that is your problem and if you dont like you can stay out of here. Id rather have this discussion with someone who is not a bias person.

olylifter420 said:

I believe in what i believe in because when i was in high school i was a part of the FCA(fellowship of Christian Athletes) on a retreat that i went on, i was able to find God and truly come to one with Him. it is a highly spiritual thing that i cannot explain, you would have to experience it and believe with all your heart. I spoke in tongue and was enlightened by this immense energy just coursing through my body. Again, it is something that you would have to experience yourself and BELIEVE 100% with your heart to be one with God.

Click to expand...

Thank you for finally answering one part of the OP. That's all people were asking for, was that so painful?

May I ask why you can't explain it? Can you explain the feeling in any way? What you describe is personal revelation, something that I have never had, otherwise I might too be a believer. The only problem I have is that we are all susceptible to being tricked by our own brains. You were in a religious environment that was designed to help you reach god. Many people I know have had spiritual experiences on LSD and I ask them the same question I am about to ask you. Why do you think it wasn't just your brain responding to whatever stimuli there was, whether it was the drugs or in your case, possibly prayer and meditation? I had an experience in a K-hole once where I believed I understood some cosmic reality that had been hidden from mankind. I didn't create a new religion based on this because I recognize that this was a drug-induced thought.
It has been shown that people can have very profound religious experiences from very small amounts of magnetism acting on their brain as well as hypnagogic hallucinations. There are probably a myriad of things that can affect our brains that we don't even know about.
Why are you so sure that your experience was from god, and specifically the Xian god?

I've been trying to pick up on some of the disscusion myself as I have been thinking and re-thinking some of my own answers to these questions, Got to thinking what this thread would look like if we all ignored Oly? We now know that he is satisfied with his answer being that he found god on a trip and can't describe it besides the immense energy and speaking in tounges.

olylifter420 said:

there you go, ignoring things i contribute. you discredit them because they answer what want, but not in the way you want..

Click to expand...

No, I just don't feel like rehashing the things that Heis and I already said. You made assumptions, twisted the meaning of my post and then argued with me about what I intended.

mp, you cant be serious right? A thread posted in a spirituality forum is not for God believers and non God believers? Wow, this must be the new toke and talk

Click to expand...

Look again smartass. This subforum is for philosophy and sexuality too. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy.
.

why the bad temper? I do comprehend what you post, i believe you are the one who does not understand what i post... why might it be? cause you are an atheist and im a believer of God who has given you what the OP wanted but you continue to dislike what i share... that is your problem and if you dont like you can stay out of here. Id rather have this discussion with someone who is not a bias person.

Click to expand...

You don't comprehend and don't listen to what others are telling you. You feel like you are being attacked for being a believer but in fact are being attacked for evading and dodging while claiming to have answered the OP.
The above post of your is the very first time I have seen you attempt to answer part of the OP even though you claimed to have already done so. If you noticed, I applauded you for actually answering, because only then can any meaningful discussion take place.

In oly's defence I think he mentioned the trip earlier.