War

Sativied

Sativied

Well-Known Member
Lucky Luke said:
haha..to true! Us colonials are being trained though.
I could use Indigenous but that's a hard one for me to spell right...lol
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First time I talked with a Firstie he wanted 5aud and I could take only 1 photo. So much for my romantic image of having a spiritual encounter with a indigenous Australian. Regardless of the orginal meaning of aboriginal (I'll stick to the oxford dic) it makes sense they prefer something like First Nation People. If anything, it's up to them to pick their own label.

Anyway, maybe worry more about China's atrocities and hostility than American bombs? Might need them sooner or later.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
Sativied said:
First time I talked with a Firstie he wanted 5aud and I could take only 1 photo. So much for my romantic image of having a spiritual encounter with a indigenous Australian. Regardless of the orginal meaning of aboriginal (I'll stick to the oxford dic) it makes sense they prefer something like First Nation People. If anything, it's up to them to pick their own label.

Anyway, maybe worry more about China's atrocities and hostility than American bombs? Might need them sooner or later.
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as a person who lives in a tourist town, i can kind of sympathize with the first people. asshats from michigan (or w/e, take your pick) come and ask every stupid question there is to ask, do every stupid thing there is to do, make a mess they do not clean up, then want you to take their picture with their fat family, then they want a picture of you...and then, tomorrow, they do it again...and then the next day....
so i've gotten to the point where i'm like
gimme a dollar.gif
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
Imagine how much stronger of a position we would be in today if Trump didn't do China a favor and pull out of the TPP (trans-Pacific trade deal) and we actually had a strong alliance of Pacific countries working together to keep China in check.
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The TPP wasn't a good deal for the US. I can see how maybe this was more than a financial deal, it was also supposed to be some sort of international political alliance thingy. But damn, why should the US businessman and worker take it in the shorts in order to ingratiate Foggy Bottom to Thailand?
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
It's getting close to crunch time. First thing Biden did was threaten the "only" $200 billion in dirty cash that Putin personally owned. That slowed old baldy down. Now this:

apnews.com

Biden threatens: No gas pipeline if Russia invades Ukraine

In a flurry of diplomacy across two continents, Presidents Joe Biden and Vladimir Putin have met separately for hours with the leaders of Germany and France.
apnews.com apnews.com

Not that anybody is surprised to see the pipeline linked to international response to Putin's attempt to replace Ukraine's democracy with a puppet dictator. What surprises me is that it's probably going to go forward.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The TPP wasn't a good deal for the US. I can see how maybe this was more than a financial deal, it was also supposed to be some sort of international political alliance thingy. But damn, why should the US businessman and worker take it in the shorts in order to ingratiate Foggy Bottom to Thailand?
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I don't agree with just saying it was not a good deal for America when you look at all the problems that we are still dealing with today, but it really doesn't matter much now.

Im saying having a economic alliance several years in with trading partners that would be able to help leverage China away from Russia today would be a large benefit if nothing else.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I don't agree with just saying it was not a good deal for America when you look at all the problems that we are still dealing with today, but it really doesn't matter much now.

Im saying having a economic alliance several years in with trading partners that would be able to help leverage China away from Russia today would be a large benefit if nothing else.
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It was a bad deal for the US worker. It's time to stop using the common person's labor as a trading chip.
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
It was a bad deal for the US worker. It's time to stop using the common person's labor as a trading chip.
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I think that is easy to say, but I really am not sure that means much since the commons person's labor is literally being traded all the time for good/services. And having a large trading block to bring up the very real disputes with things like slave labor and protecting the work product from theft is a large benefit.

But I am willing to listen if there is something specific that you are saying was doing that.

https://ustr.gov/tpp/Summary-of-US-objectives

Screen Shot 2022-02-07 at 7.52.50 PM.pngScreen Shot 2022-02-07 at 7.53.23 PM.png
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I think that is easy to say, but I really am not sure that means much since the commons person's labor is literally being traded all the time for good/services. And having a large trading block to bring up the very real disputes with things like slave labor and protecting the work product from theft is a large benefit.

But I am willing to listen if there is something specific that you are saying was doing that.

https://ustr.gov/tpp/Summary-of-US-objectives

View attachment 5081768View attachment 5081769
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What I said was -- it's time to stop using the common person's labor as a trading chip. I'm not going to be "reasonable" about this. No means no.

For example, if pharma wants better protections for their patents, fine. But not going to trade the common person's labor to protect pharma's patents. What kind of bargain is that?
 
hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
What I said was -- it's time to stop using the common person's labor as a trading chip. I'm not going to be "reasonable" about this. No means no.

For example, if pharma wants better protections for their patents, fine. But not going to trade the common person's labor to protect pharma's patents. What kind of bargain is that?
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I really don't understand what you are saying is the trade you are talking about I guess. What exactly do you think is being traded in a pharmacies labor that is not now without TPP?

I also don't understand your 'I am not going to be 'reasonable' about this' thing. Or is that just you saying you are ok with being unreasonable and it is not worth trying to talk with you about it and not worth asking if you have actually read the TPP stuff and what was it that you had specific things in it you cared about in it. Because it was over 4 years ago and was heavily trolled so in hindsight and might be hard to really be this sure of why you feel the way you do about it outside of trigger responses.
 
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
Imagine how much stronger of a position we would be in today if Trump didn't do China a favor and pull out of the TPP (trans-Pacific trade deal) and we actually had a strong alliance of Pacific countries working together to keep China in check.
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Agreed. Shame Trump wasn't a fan of free trade.
But Trump ripped that up because its something Obama did.
 
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Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
I really don't understand what you are saying is the trade you are talking about I guess. What exactly do you think is being traded in a pharmacies labor that is not now without TPP?

I also don't understand your 'I am not going to be 'reasonable' about this' thing. Or is that just you saying you are ok with being unreasonable and it is not worth trying to talk with you about it and not worth asking if you have actually read the TPP stuff and what was it that you had specific things in it you cared about in it. Because it was over 4 years ago and was heavily trolled so in hindsight and might be hard to really be this sure of why you feel the way you do about it outside of trigger responses.
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I've personal experience with globalization. I didn't lose my job but saw thousands go offshore. Good jobs too. It wasn't even about product cost, it was about favorable tax rates for R&D jobs. No good reason for it. So, it's personal in that regard. Globalization is about multinational corporations searching for the best paper deal. Rarely does it work out the way the deal is sold.

Those labor agreements are never enforced so they sound good but it's just window dressing. Companies have lawyers that enforce the IP agreements but labor has no representation. China is fucking it's workers in the ass and will throw anybody who tries to enforce those agreements in the slammer. Ruin their lives if they speak up. Not to mention the corruption that cuts into wages and working conditions.

What I'd do is put labor first. Agreements should have teeth and enforced by an independent body and enforced everywhere, from US to India and everywhere else. Because it comes from truly vile acts by truly vile people, same goes with dirty money. Where are the investments coming from? How are those workers treated? Sure, let the corporate lawyers enforce IP protections, but no trade can take place without giving workers equal footing between nations. It's fine with me if another country's workers can put out a competive products for less, so long as they are able to agree to the conditions and wages under which they work.

That's just a quick start but maybe it helps you understand what I'm after. What I will not support is bargaining away workers rights that force US workers to compete with people working in unsafe, unhealthy, workplaces that pay wages that make workers live in horrible conditions or putting sham, unenforced "agreements" regarding how products are made, from sourcing materials to shipping finished products.
 
Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
injinji said:
They didn't need to invade, other than Hitler's need to be top dog.
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They did. The produce from Europe was for some strange reason way down on tonnage from before the war. Sure some of that can be explained by germany requisitioning all the tractors (remember even in WW2 Germany was a horse and cart Army) but....
They also feared that Russia would stop shipping oil to them.
 
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Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
schuylaar said:
it's part of the problem when the world looks to one country as world police.
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England certainly handed the Super power/Empire batten to America after ww2 but the world police thing is more driven from America by Americans.
Can you name a conflict America entered because the UN requested you to? I can only name one for Australia and that was East Timor (was very successful in every way as well).
Even going back to Vietnam that is a war that is ingrained with our generation, America and its allies were supporting a Govt that Buddhist monks were setting themselves on fire in protest of. Certainly not what a "Police" force should be doing.

I know my Father- a SGT whilst in Vietnam, has never forgiven the US and Australian Government for that war .
 
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Lucky Luke

Lucky Luke

Well-Known Member
hanimmal said:
Yeah and owns the majority of information flowing around your nation and every other English speaking country pushing anti-American/pro-Russian propaganda for decades unfortunately, so yeah, it is important, especially when what you do is just more of the same.
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Murdocks very American i would of thought.
He is white, racist, capitalist and a conservative, also Christian. Seems very American republican to me.

America is to blame for what the world thinks of them- not Murdoch. I shall give you an example. Iraq: America screams weapons of mass destruction. France and the UN says nope- no WMD. OMG America went nuts and very Anti french and started carrying on to France (your greatest ally from way back) like a pork chop. In the end France and the UN was right....You created Isis i think in that invasion and destabilised a very safe and stable country (ruled by a CIA placed lunatic) but a very safe modern country by the regions standards. Its still a shit hole and not the place it once was.
Another reason why the world dislikes America? You guys bomb lots of civilians and start wars you cannot or have no intention of finishing, usually over a lie - you create terrorists groups and refugees and have no intention of helping those you hurt.

World loves Americans, such a down to earth homely bunch but America?
Its funny but every American i've met (and i used to dine at The American Club in Sydney), and they must be travelled as i've never been to an American country, always apologizes for Bush 1 and 2, Trump and starting wars etc. They don't understand why America has its gun culture and no plan to fix it. When i was a backpacker they used to sew Canadian maple leafs on their back packs in Europe..lol..Didn't the Canadians just love that...haha.

Im of the belief. That if voting was compulsory then America would be a very different place and the world would be so much better for it.
 
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hanimmal

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Lucky Luke said:
Murdocks very American i would of thought.
He is white, racist, capitalist and a conservative, also Christian. Seems very American republican to me.
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Sure it does, because it describes rich white guys anywhere on the planet.

You just seem to be programmed to shit talk America, so you see it as 'American'. But really what is the difference between them and what Putin does?

Lucky Luke said:
America is to blame for what the world thinks of them- not Murdoch. I shall give you an example. Iraq: America screams weapons of mass destruction. France and the UN says nope- no WMD. OMG America went nuts and very Anti french and started carrying on to France (your greatest ally from way back) like a pork chop. In the end France and the UN was right....You created Isis i think in that invasion and destabilised a very safe and stable country (ruled by a CIA placed lunatic) but a very safe modern country by the regions standards. Its still a shit hole and not the place it once was.
Another reason why the world dislikes America? You guys bomb lots of civilians and start wars you cannot or have no intention of finishing, usually over a lie - you create terrorists groups and refugees and have no intention of helping those you hurt.

World loves Americans, such a down to earth homely bunch but America?
Its funny but every American i've met (and i used to dine at The American Club in Sydney), and they must be travelled as i've never been to an American country, always apologizes for Bush 1 and 2, Trump and starting wars etc. They don't understand why America has its gun culture and no plan to fix it. When i was a backpacker they used to sew Canadian maple leafs on their back packs in Europe..lol..Didn't the Canadians just love that...haha.

Im of the belief. That if voting was compulsory then America would be a very different place and the world would be so much better for it.
Click to expand...
Yeah I just see a lot of anti-American cherry picking here.

We paint the biggest target the last 50-70 years as Europe was rebuilding from tearing itself apart and Asia was building up. But to pretend like what you are talking about is not very much what Putin has been pushing is false. And Murdoch has been helping by pushing the narrative as well.

Fogdog said:
I've personal experience with globalization. I didn't lose my job but saw thousands go offshore. Good jobs too. It wasn't even about product cost, it was about favorable tax rates for R&D jobs. No good reason for it. So, it's personal in that regard. Globalization is about multinational corporations searching for the best paper deal. Rarely does it work out the way the deal is sold.

Those labor agreements are never enforced so they sound good but it's just window dressing. Companies have lawyers that enforce the IP agreements but labor has no representation. China is fucking it's workers in the ass and will throw anybody who tries to enforce those agreements in the slammer. Ruin their lives if they speak up. Not to mention the corruption that cuts into wages and working conditions.

What I'd do is put labor first. Agreements should have teeth and enforced by an independent body and enforced everywhere, from US to India and everywhere else. Because it comes from truly vile acts by truly vile people, same goes with dirty money. Where are the investments coming from? How are those workers treated? Sure, let the corporate lawyers enforce IP protections, but no trade can take place without giving workers equal footing between nations. It's fine with me if another country's workers can put out a competive products for less, so long as they are able to agree to the conditions and wages under which they work.

That's just a quick start but maybe it helps you understand what I'm after. What I will not support is bargaining away workers rights that force US workers to compete with people working in unsafe, unhealthy, workplaces that pay wages that make workers live in horrible conditions or putting sham, unenforced "agreements" regarding how products are made, from sourcing materials to shipping finished products.
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Ive experienced a lot of globalization too, and I disagree that it is all bad. And saying something is never enforced is exactly why having a coalition of nations backing up the agreement would have been so important. It is ok though man, it has been about 5 years since I really looked at the TPP, and don't feel like going through it again since atm it really doesn't matter since all those things you listed are still occurring and there is no agreement.

Even if I wish it would be since we are in a very precarious situation with China sidling up with Russia and a much weakened alliance in the Pacific right now thanks to 4 years of the orange would be dictator.
 
C

CCGNZ

Well-Known Member
Lucky Luke said:
Murdocks very American i would of thought.
He is white, racist, capitalist and a conservative, also Christian. Seems very American republican to me.

America is to blame for what the world thinks of them- not Murdoch. I shall give you an example. Iraq: America screams weapons of mass destruction. France and the UN says nope- no WMD. OMG America went nuts and very Anti french and started carrying on to France (your greatest ally from way back) like a pork chop. In the end France and the UN was right....You created Isis i think in that invasion and destabilised a very safe and stable country (ruled by a CIA placed lunatic) but a very safe modern country by the regions standards. Its still a shit hole and not the place it once was.
Another reason why the world dislikes America? You guys bomb lots of civilians and start wars you cannot or have no intention of finishing, usually over a lie - you create terrorists groups and refugees and have no intention of helping those you hurt.

World loves Americans, such a down to earth homely bunch but America?
Its funny but every American i've met (and i used to dine at The American Club in Sydney), and they must be travelled as i've never been to an American country, always apologizes for Bush 1 and 2, Trump and starting wars etc. They don't understand why America has its gun culture and no plan to fix it. When i was a backpacker they used to sew Canadian maple leafs on their back packs in Europe..lol..Didn't the Canadians just love that...haha.

Im of the belief. That if voting was compulsory then America would be a very different place and the world would be so much better for it.
Click to expand...
While I don't condone the 2nd Iraq war,I thought the WMD cause to go in should have been backed up by the fact that Saddam was violating the UN agreements that ended Gulf war 1 with the no fly zones,he was lighting up air patrols w/AA radars. Bush should have included this in his argument to go back in, then his ass was covered, and lets also give credit to the fact we admitted that we found no WMD. How many other countries would have planted WMD's to cover their asses.We found none and stood up and took the hit and gave the Ayatollas a big present as far as the balance of power in that area is concerned. Americans naively believe people in lands ruled by authoritarian dictators will automatically embrace our ways w/no regard to their cultures and customs THAT is where our fault really lies IMO
 
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