War

Offmymeds

Offmymeds

Well-Known Member
Crumpetlicker said:
Can I just get this straight? Anybody that doesn't agree with the US narrative is a troll. Is that right?
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The US has more than one narrative but they're different from the Russian and Chinese narratives which are the same and the only narratives allowed. What's yours?
 
Crumpetlicker

Crumpetlicker

Well-Known Member
The sensible thing to do now is to provide Putin with a way out that does not cause affront to his masculinity or position. The Western media and leaders are just making things worse. I thought everybody knows you don't poke the bear.

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Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
Win in the Ukraine, then Belarus and eventually get responsible government in Russia and then liberal democracy and we can save a lot of money on defense. We can also concentrate against Chinese expansion, but the lesson learned here about global sanctions won't be forgotten in China. They won't risk going after Taiwan for awhile now!
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their form of government already qualifies as a liberal democracy...but it is so rife with corruption that it can only really be labeled as a kleptocracy.
clean up their elections and get rid of as much corruption as you can, and they'll be doing as good as us on that front
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Crumpetlicker said:
Is it possible to not agree with either narrative?
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Vlad's motives have been articulated by himself, experts and those who know him. It's not his first rodeo and while the rest of the world is not perfect, this can help to clean it up and remove a major threat to liberal democracies. He backs corrupt authoritarian regimes that cause mass corruption and misery. The idea here is not to get anybody but Vlad, the plan is a better life for the peoples of Russia and their neighbors, when they prosper we prosper. China is not perfect either, but they seem to have responsible government and want to win with trade and commerce, for which they have a talent and ancient tradition. We can accept this, challenges make us all stronger, just stay inside the lines. Vlad broke the founding charter of the UN and golden rule and now he and Russia will pay.
 
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DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
their form of government already qualifies as a liberal democracy...but it is so rife with corruption that it can only really be labeled as a kleptocracy.
clean up their elections and get rid of as much corruption as you can, and they'll be doing as good as us on that front
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It will be a Helluva lot easier for the EU to clean up Ukraine and Belarus than Russia! They won't get in to the EU for a while and maybe never into NATO, they probably won't need to. The point is, along with aid for rebuilding, will come rules and monitoring, Zelenskiy will welcome it.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
their form of government already qualifies as a liberal democracy...but it is so rife with corruption that it can only really be labeled as a kleptocracy.
clean up their elections and get rid of as much corruption as you can, and they'll be doing as good as us on that front
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I think this war will change Ukrainian society in regards to patriotism and the toleration of corruption. Post war aid and reconstruction will impose other limits on it and any one shooting for EU membership knows this is the path forward.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
It will be a Helluva lot easier for the EU to clean up Ukraine and Belarus than Russia! They won't get in to the EU for a while and maybe never into NATO, they probably won't need to. The point is, along with aid for rebuilding, will come rules and monitoring, Zelenskiy will welcome it.
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i'm not trying to be an asshole, but you keep saying things like "we'll give them Liberal Democracy."...they have their own system of leadership, maybe they don't want to be America, jr. . maybe all they need is really free and really fair elections, and tougher laws about corruption, and to enforce those laws...
we've all criticized the government for empire building, for using the c.i.a. as a tool for deposing unfriendly regimes, for letting big business, especially petroleum companies call the shots...
this isn't an opportunity for us to rebuild russia in our image, whatever they do after all of this, will have to be their decision.
 
Roger A. Shrubber

Roger A. Shrubber

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
I think this war will change Ukrainian society in regards to patriotism and the toleration of corruption. Post war aid and reconstruction will impose other limits on it and any one shooting for EU membership knows this is the path forward.
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i was talking about russia, not Ukraine
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
none of this is about conventional war. at some point, putin is going to get tired of this and drop a few small tactical nukes...and what are we going to do about it?...only a few choices...you let him do it so things don't escalate further, or you retaliate in kind.
if you condone his behavior in any way, you'll only encourage more of it...but you run the risk of him feeling cornered and initiating a major nuclear strike. if you retaliate, he more than likely will escalate, striking back at you harder, so you strike back even harder....you see where that leads pretty quickly.
the worse the conventional war goes for putin, the more likely he is to resort to nuclear options.
this is going to be one of those moments in time when no one knows what is going to happen...we'll either tell our grand children about it, or we'll all be dead.
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That's probably why Vlad has to go and anybody who knows him and thinks that way must be concerned with their life and that of their family. This is a classic proxy war we all know the rules and tactical nukes used on Ukrainian territory would be the start of something ugly and Vlad might die over it at his own people's hands. NATO ain't gonna be dictated to by a nuked up mafia Don, not with Zelinskiy's example of courage. Vlad can't nuke his way out of this and if he tries he will have trouble at home or the whole country might be turned to glass and vapor, along with a few of us. If his nuclear forces work like his conventional forces, half his missiles will blow up in their silos or go off course to who knows where. However nobody wants to find that out since a little goes a long way.
 
Crumpetlicker

Crumpetlicker

Well-Known Member
DIY-HP-LED said:
That's probably why Vlad has to go and anybody who knows him and thinks that way must be concerned with their life and that of their family. This is a classic proxy war we all know the rules and tactical nukes used on Ukrainian territory would be the start of something ugly and Vlad might die over it at his own people's hands. NATO ain't gonna be dictated to by a nuked up mafia Don, not with Zelinskiy's example of courage. Vlad can't nuke his way out of this and if he tries he will have trouble at home or the whole country might be turned to glass and vapor, along with a few of us. If his nuclear forces work like his conventional forces, half his missiles will blow up in their silos or go off course to who knows where. However nobody wants to find that out since a little goes a long way.
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Correct me if I am wrong but Zelinsky has just accused the West of sitting on their hands for not enforcing a no-fly zone over the Ukraine. He is showing courage what is the West doing except stirring the pot?
 
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