Roger Waters victim of Cancel culture???

[Sativied]

What you say may be true about "a decisive victory" I will point out that Israel is hardly a healthy democracy. It is trending toward fascism and their treatment of Palestinian Israeli citizens is deplorable. Most Jewish Israelis are native born to the area and have every bit of a right to life and happiness as the Palestinians in the area. I'm not into genocide as you seem to be but agree that a peace of death might be one solution. It would be a horrible crime against humanity and should trigger serious sanctions against Israel if that's where it ends.

Given that genocide is the direction Israel is heading, I don't want the US to provide aid to Israel any longer and we should distance ourselves from the current government..

I condemn Zionism and anti-Semitism. They are both bad. But I don't have any solutions to offer. It's going to have to come from the people living in the area.

Well I said it too here when we went down this road before nearly a decade ago, sometthing about only a decisive win bringing us closer to world peace. I also remember how quickly things escalated here back then and the for this subject almost pavlovian strawman attacks. See examples above.

It’s genocide of the jews why Israel is Israel and a for decades constant threat of an enemy who wants to finish the job is why they respond like they do. It does not follow someone is “into genocide” for suggesting those who are the victim of genocide and under attack again and again have every right to respond to the threat and feel safe by any means necessary. Just as the US, Europe, or Australia would have done in undoubtedly far more aggressive ways (the latter would relocate all the aboriginals to an island and let them starve if they behaved like Palestinians).

I was trying the illustrate how Israel is judged differently, always more harshly. When everything else is equal except for one difference: they’re jews.

I’d of course prefer a different reality, but I’ll never judge whatever Israel does to keep its people safe and as result of that ongoing effort. Definitely easier, don’t have to add disclaimers like “I have nothing against jews but…”, “I’m not anti-semetic but…”, “it’s just the zionist ones I don’t like”. It all sounds too familiar, whether it’s about black people or any “other”. It’s not guilt that makes Germany support Israel, it’s because they still remember what happened during and before WW2. Don’t need books, movies or documents for that, we (I say we cause it’s no difference in NL) still know. It’s because anti-semitism regardless of how it’s packaged is still outside the Overton window for some.

And while it’s healthy to be able to disagree with your president of choice, that by itself would still make me think twice. In case it’s Biden, thrice.

“Israel is hardly a healthy democracy. It is trending toward fascism and their treatment of Palestinian Israeli citizens is deplorable”

Yes too the last part. Not sure what the first part means. Let’s not compare support and approval and protest percentages with
the US and support for republicans and Trump. Or the difference in how religious freaks try to tell others how to live. Let’s go with your opinion Israel is hardly a healthy democracy and trending towards fascism. Is that a good reason to end the support against actual religious fascists. You seem to ignore how much worse the alternative is. It’s kinda like complaining about corruption in Ukraine while the Russians are trying to take over the country with terrorist attacks. What I get from the replies to my post is “Israel is bad and you’re guilty too for supporting them”. Nothing about how Palestinians treat Palestinians worse and want all jews to die.

Should the civilized world drop relations and abandon the US by distancing themselves from its government if enough Americans are dumb enough to elect Trump. Abandon the left cause the right went nuts? Of course not. Netanyahu IsNot Israel.

 

[cannabineer]

Well I said it too here when we went down this road before nearly a decade ago, sometthing about only a decisive win bringing us closer to world peace. I also remember how quickly things escalated here back then and the for this subject almost pavlovian strawman attacks. See examples above.

It’s genocide of the jews why Israel is Israel and a for decades constant threat of an enemy who wants to finish the job is why they respond like they do. It does not follow someone is “into genocide” for suggesting those who are the victim of genocide and under attack again and again have every right to respond to the threat and feel safe by any means necessary. Just as the US, Europe, or Australia would have done in undoubtedly far more aggressive ways (the latter would relocate all the aboriginals to an island and let them starve if they behaved like Palestinians).

I was trying the illustrate how Israel is judged differently, always more harshly. When everything else is equal except for one difference: they’re jews.

I’d of course prefer a different reality, but I’ll never judge whatever Israel does to keep its people safe and as result of that ongoing effort. Definitely easier, don’t have to add disclaimers like “I have nothing against jews but…”, “I’m not anti-semetic but…”, “it’s just the zionist ones I don’t like”. It all sounds too familiar, whether it’s about black people or any “other”. It’s not guilt that makes Germany support Israel, it’s because they still remember what happened during and before WW2. Don’t need books, movies or documents for that, we (I say we cause it’s no difference in NL) still know. It’s because anti-semitism regardless of how it’s packaged is still outside the Overton window for some.

And while it’s healthy to be able to disagree with your president of choice, that by itself would still make me think twice. In case it’s Biden, thrice.

“Israel is hardly a healthy democracy. It is trending toward fascism and their treatment of Palestinian Israeli citizens is deplorable”

Yes too the last part. Not sure what the first part means. Let’s not compare support and approval and protest percentages with
the US and support for republicans and Trump. Or the difference in how religious freaks try to tell others how to live. Let’s go with your opinion Israel is hardly a healthy democracy and trending towards fascism. Is that a good reason to end the support against actual religious fascists. You seem to ignore how much worse the alternative is. It’s kinda like complaining about corruption in Ukraine while the Russians are trying to take over the country with terrorist attacks. What I get from the replies to my post is “Israel is bad and you’re guilty too for supporting them”. Nothing about how Palestinians treat Palestinians worse and want all jews to die.

Should the civilized world drop relations and abandon the US by distancing themselves from its government if enough Americans are dumb enough to elect Trump. Abandon the left cause the right went nuts? Of course not. Netanyahu IsNot Israel.

I think part of the trouble is, preliminarily, that it is hard to gauge how much sarcasm is in your “cart them off to Afghanistan” remark. That wouldn’t be workable in any case.

Primarily it is that the situation is thorny from every angle of approach. I do not think there can be a decisive victory, since even if Israel kicked every Palestinian out of the contested area, Syria, Iran etc. would be a source of asymmetric warfighters gnawing at Israel.

The authoritarian manner of Netanyahu is a serious concern. It becomes difficult to gauge how to support Israel while refusing support to its illiberal component.

I see no clear path to resolution. Imo Israel has a right to its territory, while Palestinians have a right to integrate into Israeli (or perhaps Lebanese or Syrian) society. But there is no way to do that without significant injustice in my opinion.

It’s thorns all the way down.

 

[Sativied]

You never really had a valid point in the first place. And now that somebody actualy presents a valid argument you run in the other direction.

Not much better than the reply you deleted, no subtance to back it up. I’m going to reply to the deleted one if you don’t mind, or do:

The Jews sure screwed themselves over trying to navigate racial segregation in the US and avoid inequality black/white by marking the white/caucasian checkbox. Jews with the same ethnic background as for example Armenians or Arabs are called white. White man bad, white man fascist, victim brown people, Palestinians brown, must be victims.

The whiteness of Jews fluctuates based on who wants them to be the bad guys.

 

[Sativied]

I think part of the trouble is, preliminarily, that it is hard to gauge how much sarcasm is in your “cart them off to Afghanistan” remark. That wouldn’t be workable in any case.

Primarily it is that the situation is thorny from every angle of approach. I do not think there can be a decisive victory, since even if Israel kicked every Palestinian out of the contested area, Syria, Iran etc. would be a source of asymmetric warfighters gnawing at Israel.

The authoritarian manner of Netanyahu is a serious concern. It becomes difficult to gauge how to support Israel while refusing support to its illiberal component.

I see no clear path to resolution. Imo Israel has a right to its territory, while Palestinians have a right to integrate into Israeli (or perhaps Lebanese or Syrian) society. But there is no way to do that without significant injustice in my opinion.

It’s thorns all the way down.

I post here for what, like a dozen people tops, people I all assume smart enough to figure that out. If it’s not pragmatic, would you consider that something I‘d suggest regardless of the moral aspect? I suggested giving them what they want, to make clear what they want to achieve. There are countries like that already, Afghanistan, Iran. Countries we’re let’s say not cool with for good reasons. A factor people seem to just set aside too busy painting Israel black.

 

[cannabineer]

I post here for what, like a dozen people tops, people I all assume smart enough to figure that out. If it’s not pragmatic, would you consider that something I‘d suggest regardless of the moral aspect? I suggested giving them what they want, to make clear what they want to achieve. There are countries like that already, Afghanistan, Iran. Countries we’re let’s say not cool with for good reasons. A factor people seem to just set aside too busy painting Israel black.

I’ll add the caveat that there are as many things they want as there are Palestinians. The bringers of sharia tend not to hold a referendum.

 

[Lucky Luke]

If America reintroduced segregation i would hope the world, including RIU condemned it. I also would hope that America would not hide behind it being a Christian country and say that anyone criticizing it must be anti Christian.

 

[Kola_Kreator]

So anyway back to the topic.

The German democratic government is attempting to stop Waters from performing because they don't like his opinion.

If you believe in democracy and our principals of free speech you should be in opposition to this.

Criticising Israel does not make anyone antisemitic. To say that it does fits perfectly into the "straw man argument" category. Just because you are critical of the inhumane actions that Israel is guilty of does not mean you are prejudice against all Jews. And when a world democratic government tries to pull this kind of crap we should all call it out for what it is.

 

[Lucky Luke]

That’s 5 strawmen too many to dignify with a reply.

I think the answer was Geldof. Dylan and Stevens/Yusuf Islam would have to be last.

 

[Lucky Luke]

I post here for what, like a dozen people tops.

Scary how few people are active in Politics compared to a year or so ago. Its becoming an echo chamber.

 

[HGCC]

If America reintroduced segregation i would hope the world, including RIU condemned it. I also would hope that America would not hide behind it being a Christian country and say that anyone criticizing it must be anti Christian.

Why do you hate our freedom?!?!? Muahaha

Israel is a complex and interesting topic. I don't think we should have borders and people should be free to move about and live where they want...so it's not even an issue. Though am very much enjoying the various perspectives. I do think of Jewish people as a separate group from the state of Israel, I don't back the state but Sativied makes good points on why they are how they are.

 

[MtRainDog]

If America reintroduced segregation i would hope the world, including RIU condemned it. I also would hope that America would not hide behind it being a Christian country and say that anyone criticizing it must be anti Christian.

I'm not anti-Christian per se, but I strongly believe churches should pay taxes. Churches are entertainment. Movie theaters are entertainment. Movie theaters pay taxes... so should churches. Carry on.

 

[Sativied]

So anyway back to the topic.

The German democratic government is attempting to stop Waters from performing because they don't like his opinion.

If you believe in democracy and our principals of free speech you should be in opposition to this.

Criticising Israel does not make anyone antisemitic. To say that it does fits perfectly into the "straw man argument" category. Just because you are critical of the inhumane actions that Israel is guilty of does not mean you are prejudice against all Jews. And when a world democratic government tries to pull this kind of crap we should all call it out for what it is.

“back to topic”, goes on with post being about the same topic, which is actually as on topic as it gets around here.
Pretends to recognize perfect strawman, goes on to post strawman (“Just because… [more of something I didn’t claim])

Your first two statements need no refutation, they’re just so grossly oversimplified they are falsehoods.

US weighs in on Roger Waters antisemitism debate, says artist has long history of denigrating Jews

The Biden administration is weighing in on the controversy over Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters and his recent performances in Germany that have been deemed antisemitic by some. The State Department said Tuesday that Waters has “a long track record of using antisemitic tropes to denigrate...

apnews.com

When people tell you who they are…

I can see why Roger Waters is appealing to some. Considers Biden a war criminal, a slimeball, not sure if he prefers him over Trump, blaims Zelensky for not negotiating with the Russians and the many dead Russians, considers Taiwan part of China, denies the atrocities the Chinese government inflicts on millions of Chinese cause do your own rezurch…. but yeah his selective outrage towards Israel has nothing to do with him being an anti-semite, it’s cause he cares for the Palestinians. Sure as hell not, Jan.

 

[Fogdog]

So anyway back to the topic.

The German democratic government is attempting to stop Waters from performing because they don't like his opinion.

If you believe in democracy and our principals of free speech you should be in opposition to this.

Actually, he's being investigated in Germany for what he did, not his opinion. He claims his act, where he dressed up and displayed regalia similar to an SS uniform was a statement in opposition to fascism. OTOH, his act might have violated Germany's laws. From an article in Variety:

A police spokesman in Berlin said Waters was being investigated on the “suspicion of incitement to public hatred because the clothing worn on stage could be used to glorify or justify Nazi rule.”

Evoking Nazi imagery and play-acting fascists murdering a crowd at ground zero of the holocaust. I can see how it might be seen differently in Germany than in the US. My guess is that no charges will be filed. I think that an investigation is an appropriate rebuke, though it may result in Waters being banned from performing again in Germany. The appropriate response is for the people of Germany to decide. And this, I think, is what Waters is beefing about. What Germans think is appropriate is not for Waters to decide.

Also from Variety: Waters further wrote, “I have spent my entire life speaking out against authoritarianism and oppression wherever I see it.

Bullshit. Waters is supporting Putin by speaking against aid to Ukraine.

 

[Fogdog]

Criticizing acts that Israel's government commits does not make anyone anti-Semitic. To say that it does fits perfectly into the "straw man argument" category. Just because you are critical of the inhumane actions that Israel is guilty of does not mean you are prejudice against all Jews.

And when a world democratic government tries to pull this kind of crap we should all call it out for what it is.

FIFY

The bottom sentence that I separated out. What are you referring to?

 

[Sativied]

OTOH, his act might have violated Germany's laws. From an article in Variety:

A police spokesman in Berlin said Waters was being investigated on the “suspicion of incitement to public hatred because the clothing worn on stage could be used to glorify or justify Nazi rule.”

Evoking Nazi imagery and play-acting fascists murdering a crowd at ground zero of the holocaust. I can see how it might be seen differently in Germany than in the US.

Different in Germany than (pretty sure) anywhere else. No hate speech laws in the US, which Germany has against anything close to nazi and rightwing extremism as well as sexual orientation and gender identity.

In US freedom of speech in the 1st in the constitution
In Germany it’s in article 5, 1-4 is about human dignity/ rights/ equality, freedom of religion and the Golden Rule.
In NL it’s in article 7 (in fact, we don’t literally have freedom of speech, we have the ”freedom to express opinion”. Inciting hate, nazism and alternative facts that endanger people are not opinions).

That’s just one set of laws applicable, includes holocaust denial.

No public display or distribution of [nazi or neonazi] “flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting”. Exceptions for journalists and artistic expressions, which obviously creates a gray area. The thing Trump does with namecalling like “Pocahontas”, malicious gossip, slander of politicians and private persons, violates insult laws.

Only low iq village idiots under influence get unlimited freedom of speech, for the rest there’s consequences.

Their laws are based on old ones but have been expanded since ww2 and still are:

German government makes hate-motivated insults a crime

The German government has passed a new law making hate-motivated insults a criminal offence which can be punished with a monetary fine or prison of up to two years.Germany’s justice minister said Wednesday that the new law is meant to protect Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people with disabilities and

apnews.com

One can of course disagree, but when you visit Germany it’s wise and imo appropriate to accept their laws.

That all said, it‘s particularly Germans who face prison for violating these laws.

 

[Roger A. Shrubber]

Well I said it too here when we went down this road before nearly a decade ago, sometthing about only a decisive win bringing us closer to world peace. I also remember how quickly things escalated here back then and the for this subject almost pavlovian strawman attacks. See examples above.

It’s genocide of the jews why Israel is Israel and a for decades constant threat of an enemy who wants to finish the job is why they respond like they do. It does not follow someone is “into genocide” for suggesting those who are the victim of genocide and under attack again and again have every right to respond to the threat and feel safe by any means necessary. Just as the US, Europe, or Australia would have done in undoubtedly far more aggressive ways (the latter would relocate all the aboriginals to an island and let them starve if they behaved like Palestinians).

I was trying the illustrate how Israel is judged differently, always more harshly. When everything else is equal except for one difference: they’re jews.

I’d of course prefer a different reality, but I’ll never judge whatever Israel does to keep its people safe and as result of that ongoing effort. Definitely easier, don’t have to add disclaimers like “I have nothing against jews but…”, “I’m not anti-semetic but…”, “it’s just the zionist ones I don’t like”. It all sounds too familiar, whether it’s about black people or any “other”. It’s not guilt that makes Germany support Israel, it’s because they still remember what happened during and before WW2. Don’t need books, movies or documents for that, we (I say we cause it’s no difference in NL) still know. It’s because anti-semitism regardless of how it’s packaged is still outside the Overton window for some.

And while it’s healthy to be able to disagree with your president of choice, that by itself would still make me think twice. In case it’s Biden, thrice.

“Israel is hardly a healthy democracy. It is trending toward fascism and their treatment of Palestinian Israeli citizens is deplorable”

Yes too the last part. Not sure what the first part means. Let’s not compare support and approval and protest percentages with
the US and support for republicans and Trump. Or the difference in how religious freaks try to tell others how to live. Let’s go with your opinion Israel is hardly a healthy democracy and trending towards fascism. Is that a good reason to end the support against actual religious fascists. You seem to ignore how much worse the alternative is. It’s kinda like complaining about corruption in Ukraine while the Russians are trying to take over the country with terrorist attacks. What I get from the replies to my post is “Israel is bad and you’re guilty too for supporting them”. Nothing about how Palestinians treat Palestinians worse and want all jews to die.

Should the civilized world drop relations and abandon the US by distancing themselves from its government if enough Americans are dumb enough to elect Trump. Abandon the left cause the right went nuts? Of course not. Netanyahu IsNot Israel.

explain to me how the existence of Israel is legitimate? They waged a political campaign, they influenced world leaders, they "deservedly" played the victim card, and then....They stole the Palestinians homes, treated them like cattle, forced them into ghettos, and murdered those that resisted.
And every bit of this on the authority of a religious book with no basis in reality.

 

[Kola_Kreator]

“back to topic”, goes on with post being about the same topic, which is actually as on topic as it gets around here.
Pretends to recognize perfect strawman, goes on to post strawman (“Just because… [more of something I didn’t claim])

Your first two statements need no refutation, they’re just so grossly oversimplified they are falsehoods.

US weighs in on Roger Waters antisemitism debate, says artist has long history of denigrating Jews

The Biden administration is weighing in on the controversy over Pink Floyd co-founder Roger Waters and his recent performances in Germany that have been deemed antisemitic by some. The State Department said Tuesday that Waters has “a long track record of using antisemitic tropes to denigrate...

apnews.com

When people tell you who they are…

I can see why Roger Waters is appealing to some. Considers Biden a war criminal, a slimeball, not sure if he prefers him over Trump, blaims Zelensky for not negotiating with the Russians and the many dead Russians, considers Taiwan part of China, denies the atrocities the Chinese government inflicts on millions of Chinese cause do your own rezurch…. but yeah his selective outrage towards Israel has nothing to do with him being an anti-semite, it’s cause he cares for the Palestinians. Sure as hell not, Jan.

You do realise that there's no actual evidence of Water's behaving antisemitic in the article you posted. Maybe you should actually read stuff before you copy pasta.

His comments on Taiwan are not something that I agree with but that doesn't mean that I would support any action to cancel or silence his voice.

I think waters is genuinely supportive of human rights on a broader scale. This whole thing is about the interpretation of his stage show and whether or not it might incite others to act violently. The things about art is that it's not meant to be clearly defined, it's objectively open to interpretation by the viewer. So unless he's actually making antisemitic statements or voicing discriminatory opinions you can't simply assume he's antisemantic based only on his stage show. And he is correct when he says that there are political motivations behind pro-israel voices labelling him as such.

It might even be deeply offensive to some Jewish people but I'm pretty sure also that there's Jewish people that are not offended by his stage show. This is what happens when people interpret things. You will get varying outcomes.

And one should not connect Waters critical views on Israel and his on stage performances as one in the same. Obviously.

 

[Lucky Luke]

Fun facts:

The concert event The Wall – Live in Berlin, a July 1990 performance of the 1980 Pink Floyd album The Wall took place at the site of the Berlin Wall that had come down eight months previously.
The Wall: Live in Berlin was watched by a live audience of about 350,000. Tickets are said to have been sold to about 250,000 people but, with a large crush of people outside, the gates were opened and perhaps another 100,000 saw the show free. The television audience was estimated at 500 million people.

How many times has Roger Waters performed The Wall?

The Wall Live (2010–2013)

End date	21 September 2013
Legs	6
No. of shows	98 in North America 91 in Europe 15 in Oceania 15 in South America 219 in total

I wonder how many in the last 10 years? Anyone?

 

[GenericEnigma]

"Cancel Culture" is a boogeyman. It's just people spending money on things they like due to their opinion.

Cancel Bud Light. Cancel Goya. Blah blah.

Been around forever. I guess it needs a personification now so it can be applied to someone who can be hated.

I haven't the faintest qualification to judge how Germany handles perceived naziism and anti-semitism.

I will continue listening to Pink Floyd. I rarely listened to The Wall or the Final Cut before (they suck hind tit in comparison to More or Obscured By Clouds).

But to answer the question: yes - and no. Roger Waters suffers poor public opinion. And "Cancel Culture" is an illusion.

 

[cannabineer]

i suppose it could be taken that way, but i don't think it was it was intended as such. The only thing that makes it a strawman at all is the supposition of that treatment with no factual record of such behavior previously. i would actually classify that as a hasty generalization, personally.

Tell me where my analysis is flawed.