A Tale of The Tape HPA vs 21st Century Flood and Drain

[PetFlora]

Fonz: First a big THANK YOU! After reading your first post about hpa wet/dry cycles, I went from 2 seconds to 3 seconds, and increased pause from 2:36 to 4:36. Approximately 24 hours later I decided to look in on them, but not expecting too much. HA!

I would not have believed what I saw today, unless it was with my own 2 eyes + a bright white led light + mag glass- root hairs everywhere. since I have ~ 4 weeks left, plenty of time to see how the 2 hpa plants respond

The SDG of Zoomed Florosuns I saw on zoomed website, are maybe 70% intensity of the SDG of Wave Point.

You need to clarify who said what regarding anything, but specifically here, 660: yes, it is important, BUT, maybe 1/8- 2/8 tops when the 600-630 range is amply covered, as in my bulb mix. This is the beauty of a few florosuns + UVL Red Lifes- the combination covers 600-700+ band very well

 

[Fonzarelli]

Fonz: First a big THANK YOU! After reading your first post about hpa wet/dry cycles, I went from 2 seconds to 3 seconds, and increased pause from 2:36 to 4:36. Approximately 24 hours later I decided to look in on them, but not expecting too much. HA!

I would not have believed what I saw today, unless it was with my own 2 eyes + a bright white led light + mag glass- root hairs everywhere. since I have ~ 4 weeks left, plenty of time to see how the 2 hpa plants respond

The SDG of Zoomed Florosuns I saw on zoomed website, are maybe 70% intensity of the SDG of Wave Point.

You need to clarify who said what regarding anything, but specifically here, 660: yes, it is important, BUT, maybe 1/8- 2/8 tops when the 600-630 range is amply covered, as in my bulb mix. This is the beauty of a few florosuns + UVL Red Lifes- the combination covers 600-700+ band very well

Are you saying that your off time for misting is 4:36 as in 4 hours and 36 minutes, or 4 minutes and 36 seconds? If it is 4 minutes and 36 seconds you need to try 30 MINUTES off because that's where you are going to see the big difference. You need to give the roots time to absorb those tiny little nutrient mist particles before blasting them with another hit.

As far as that wavepoint Ultra Growth lamp goes in comparison to the Flora Sun you say is 70% less intense? This doesn't really make any sense. It is 54w that is the intensity. It's going to be the same for either brand. The SPD graph is a general idea of the light proportions where the Y-axis or intensity is irrelevant when comparing lamp to lamp. It is only there to show the red/green/blue proportions within one single lamp. Let's not claim a false statement here and have people go and pay $30 for a lamp that is identical to the Flora Sun that can be had at under $15 a lamp. The new UVL 660 is the only new lamp that is worth the $30 because it is the only one on the market and contains that magical phosphor that is supposedly so expensive. Ignore the Y-axis when comparing lamps, only go by the red/green/blue proportions in relation to another lamp. Whether the intensity is 1 or 100 it makes no difference. When they measure the output of a lamp they hold the lamp up to a fiber optic receptor that measures the wavelengths. As you move the light closer to the receptor the intensity will be so high that it won't even register on the graph. I've used these sensors before when I worked in a custom neon shop as a glass blower making signs for people.

If anything the Ultra Growth has more blue in the lamp which makes it even less desirable. If someone does purchase one I'm willing to put money on the fact that they will appear much bluer than the Zoo Med Flora lamp.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

The long off period might be a viable way to get over your accumulatorless issues. Albeit in the end, the most desireable environment is where the correct mist droplet size is being constantly applied in the correct saturation range. If you had the accumulator, you could really deliver the 30-80 microns which are the size that allow constant feeding and constant breathing at the same time. Since you cannot deliver that without the accumulator, you can have distinct wet/dry periods that at least give the plants enough water and enough o2, and he might just be right. Although to increase your off times to 30 minutes, those roots had better be pretty wet to begin with, so perhaps starting with 10 minutes off and going up in 5 minute increments every day could work. Since you are using pretty low feed times, I bet your optimal off time will be around 15-20 minutes, but it's purely conjecture.

 

[polyarcturus]

seems like it has a broader red spectrum than the ZOOMED IMO but really in the end fonz your right untill they get put in action who knows, my plan was to pair them up with the florasuns, i will be getting x2 soon for my veg (x2 aquasun x2 florasun x2ultragrowth) so well see just waiting for a fair price(15-20$)

 

[squarefodder]

Nice grow, I really like what you have going on here with your t5's. Im thinking I may do a small 4*4 t5 unit set up with a flower spectrum like yours down the road. Looks like it would make wicked side lighting or complement an hps quite well. How much do you spend in bulbs?

 

[PetFlora]

Are you saying that your off time for misting is 4:36 as in 4 hours and 36 minutes, or 4 minutes and 36 seconds? If it is 4 minutes and 36 seconds you need to try 30 MINUTES off because that's where you are going to see the big difference. You need to give the roots time to absorb those tiny little nutrient mist particles before blasting them with another hit.

As far as that wavepoint Ultra Growth lamp goes in comparison to the Flora Sun you say is 70% less intense? This doesn't really make any sense. It is 54w that is the intensity. It's going to be the same for either brand. The SPD graph is a general idea of the light proportions where the Y-axis or intensity is irrelevant when comparing lamp to lamp. It is only there to show the red/green/blue proportions within one single lamp. Let's not claim a false statement here and have people go and pay $30 for a lamp that is identical to the Flora Sun that can be had at under $15 a lamp. The new UVL 660 is the only new lamp that is worth the $30 because it is the only one on the market and contains that magical phosphor that is supposedly so expensive. Ignore the Y-axis when comparing lamps, only go by the red/green/blue proportions in relation to another lamp. Whether the intensity is 1 or 100 it makes no difference. When they measure the output of a lamp they hold the lamp up to a fiber optic receptor that measures the wavelengths. As you move the light closer to the receptor the intensity will be so high that it won't even register on the graph. I've used these sensors before when I worked in a custom neon shop as a glass blower making signs for people.

If anything the Ultra Growth has more blue in the lamp which makes it even less desirable. If someone does purchase one I'm willing to put money on the fact that they will appear much bluer than the Zoo Med Flora lamp.

Time ratios minutes: seconds. As to 30 minute pause, I would need to experiment. I know from past experience that that much dry would kill not only my root hairs but the fish bones, BUT, my table top was not reflecting heat, the heat was passing through and turning the pod into a sauna. I will slowly increase pause to verify that the long pause works here

Intensity: Perhaps I used the wrong word to define what I mean is Florasuns (which I use) have ~ 70% of the total red phosphors in the 600-700 spectrums than the UltraWaves. It seems to me one would need 4 Florosuns to equal the amount of 600-700 in 2 UltraWaves. Perhaps you can explain where I am going wrong. Or did you, and I'm just not getting it.

 

[PetFlora]

Nice grow, I really like what you have going on here with your t5's. Im thinking I may do a small 4*4 t5 unit set up with a flower spectrum like yours down the road. Looks like it would make wicked side lighting or complement an hps quite well. How much do you spend in bulbs?

Thanks for the positive comments. Average price including shipping/taxes @ $22. If you know what you want up front (I didn't) you can buy them all at once and save on shipping

Take look at the UVL Aquasuns. IMO, they are an excellent hps substitute

 

[Fonzarelli]

seems like it has a broader red spectrum than the ZOOMED IMO but really in the end fonz your right untill they get put in action who knows, my plan was to pair them up with the florasuns, i will be getting x2 soon for my veg (x2 aquasun x2 florasun x2ultragrowth) so well see just waiting for a fair price(15-20$)

Yeah, take a photo and show us the 2 lamps side by side. There shouldn't be much of a difference. Definitely only buy a couple to start with in case I'm right.

 

[Fonzarelli]

Time ratios minutes: seconds. As to 30 minute pause, I would need to experiment. I know from past experience that that much dry would kill not only my root hairs but the fish bones, BUT, my table top was not reflecting heat, the heat was passing through and turning the pod into a sauna. I will slowly increase pause to verify that the long pause works here

Intensity: Perhaps I used the wrong word to define what I mean is Florasuns (which I use) have ~ 70% of the total red phosphors in the 600-700 spectrums than the UltraWaves. It seems to me one would need 4 Florosuns to equal the amount of 600-700 in 2 UltraWaves. Perhaps you can explain where I am going wrong. Or did you, and I'm just not getting it.

You definitely DO NOT want a sauna in your root zone! The root zone should be kept around 68 degrees F with a water chiller. If you have IR penetrating your rootzone put some aluminum foil over it so it gets reflected away! Either way a longer off time for your misting will help encourage those fine fluffy roots. I just started a new aero grow so I can show you what I'm doing and the misters/pump I use. For my cloner I use x2 misters per 5 gallon bucket and have 8 cuttings inside. The misters are on 24/7 until the roots start coming and then I start to turn down the misting times and off times until I get the type of root growth desired. The cuttings I have going are 2 serious bubble g, 2 dna lemon, 2 rp sour d, 2 blue berry. It's going to be a tasty mix bag of sweet and sour candy! The grow tube I use doesn't have much open space which isn't ideal for aero, but it works anyway. I'm using a 5" x 5" square pvc with 2" holes every 1 foot. 4 plants per tube.

I'm using clonex solution inside my cloner at 15mL per gallon of H2O. Anyone have a better ratio or better luck with pure H2O? I've also been lightly scraping my cuttings where I want roots to appear, I find this has made quite a huge difference in rooting quality and have some pretty crazy amounts of rooting when I've done this before.

 

[PetFlora]

^^ The high pod temp problem was solved prior to this grow, it cost me several starts. I had switched from ~ 70 w LED to 432w HO T5. I was at a loss why as the young plants looked fantastic, until I stuck my head inside the pod one day: it was steamy. Aha, that's the problem. I took out 6/8 bulbs because 2 is plenty. It was still prety warm so I covered the top with heavy duty foil. Problem solved

Misters on 24/7??? What pump can last that long, constantly hearing it would drive me nuttz

For cloning/seedlings I use a Rubbermaid RoughNeck (large shoebox size) + a 45L/m 4 head air pump + 4 large Oxystone cylinders. This super aerates the surface and ~4" above with oxygen rich moisture. I keep the water level within 3". And of course it's on 24/7.

My seedlings/clones are inserted into super starter cubes (cut in half) then inserted into net pot s with 2 layers of hydroton then into 1.5" pvc couplers. There are at least 4 different coupler variations. The one on the far left is best for seedlings

Here's a couple pics

 

[polyarcturus]

continuous duty rated pumps are meant for constant use.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

You definitely DO NOT want a sauna in your root zone! The root zone should be kept around 68 degrees F with a water chiller. If you have IR penetrating your rootzone put some aluminum foil over it so it gets reflected away! Either way a longer off time for your misting will help encourage those fine fluffy roots. I just started a new aero grow so I can show you what I'm doing and the misters/pump I use. For my cloner I use x2 misters per 5 gallon bucket and have 8 cuttings inside. The misters are on 24/7 until the roots start coming and then I start to turn down the misting times and off times until I get the type of root growth desired. The cuttings I have going are 2 serious bubble g, 2 dna lemon, 2 rp sour d, 2 blue berry. It's going to be a tasty mix bag of sweet and sour candy! The grow tube I use doesn't have much open space which isn't ideal for aero, but it works anyway. I'm using a 5" x 5" square pvc with 2" holes every 1 foot. 4 plants per tube.

I'm using clonex solution inside my cloner at 15mL per gallon of H2O. Anyone have a better ratio or better luck with pure H2O? I've also been lightly scraping my cuttings where I want roots to appear, I find this has made quite a huge difference in rooting quality and have some pretty crazy amounts of rooting when I've done this before.

I recently tested a bunch of different cloning methods and decided tapwater is fine for me, although the method I preferred most was a simple hp cloner. I hooked up a gardenhose to a solenoid with a timer I could use 3 second per 1 minute timings on and 2 red cloudtops nozzles pointing straight up at the stems in a smaller tote made to root 6 cuttings at a time in 2" netpots with neoprene discs. It could easily be in a larger tote with more misters and sites and cost nothing because I already had the parts- took 20 minutes to rig up and it appears more roots shoot off the stems than with other methods- also my first one sprouted roots on only the third day and I used no clone solution or anything besides my tapwater.

 

[PetFlora]

I have been slowly following Fonzs & TBs advice on increasing my HPA cycles: I first went from 2 seconds to 3 seconds with 4:36 (minutes) pause, then, 4/9:36 for a few days, and now to 4/12:36.

Seeing how large the resultant drops are hanging on the tips of some of the roots it seems that 4 mist heads are probably 2 too many. Time will tell, or Fonz/TB will chime in.

Today I reduced ppms from ~ 1100-1200 back down to ~ 800, as they are ~ 3 weeks from harvest

Prior to making these cycle changes the larger plant in hpa started responding to the V & B nutes in a big way in both height and girth, so I will lead with new pics of her



F & D

I took 2 clones from 'Big Girl' about 5 days ago. So far so good

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Looks good. I suppose it's hard to comment without seeing it firsthand, but you'll want to use the minumal amount of nozzles that can afford you full coverage of all the roots... The droplets aren't ideal, however you are trying to do your best without an accumulator and I suppose the idea is to adjust your pause time to allow the droplets to be fully absorbed before the next misting. I think continuing trial and error is going to get you the best settings for your situation eventually, and wish you good luck and enjoy reading the results...

p.s. don't go too overboard and risk losing your crop since it's already so far along. I like the ideal of small incremental changes and I know you are able to check on them 5 times a day which is a good thing...

 

[Fonzarelli]

Misters on 24/7??? What pump can last that long, constantly hearing it would drive me nuttz

Yeah, this pump I use is meant to run continuously. It's great because it barely gets warm to the touch and is completely silent. I can barely even hear it with my ear right next to it. It runs 125 psi at 0.1 gallons per minute. I purchased it from Mist King out of Canada. They run about $100 a piece or less. I will look it up the details for you when I get the chance.

Update, here is the pump I've been using for years. I think it's still the same one as this,
http://www.mistking.com/Standard-Diaphragm-misting-pump-with-zip-drip-valve.html

try not to drool all over your keyboard lol

 

[Fonzarelli]

I have been slowly following Fonzs & TBs advice on increasing my HPA cycles: I first went from 2 seconds to 3 seconds with 4:36 (minutes) pause, then, 4/9:36 for a few days, and now to 4/12:36.

Seeing how large the resultant drops are hanging on the tips of some of the roots it seems that 4 mist heads are probably 2 too many. Time will tell, or Fonz/TB will chime in.

Today I reduced ppms from ~ 1100-1200 back down to ~ 800, as they are ~ 3 weeks from harvest

Prior to making these cycle changes the larger plant in hpa started responding to the V & B nutes in a big way in both height and girth, so I will lead with new pics of her

View attachment 2223256View attachment 2223257

F & D

I took 2 clones from 'Big Girl' about 5 days ago. So far so good

View attachment 2223258View attachment 2223267View attachment 2223268View attachment 2223269View attachment 2223270

Definitely a good idea to cut the nutes. With aero, it's a known fact that you can cut your nutes almost in half. I NEVER EXCEED A PPM OF 1000 DOING AERO IN ANY PART OF THE GROW. Your aero plant definitely got over fert, but it looks like it's fine. As far as what TB said, good idea to not make huge changes on a daily bases, but I think you have the right picture now. The rule I've always gone by with aero and fogging tech is to watch the leaves. You want to have your misters off right to the point that your leaves start to droop. Like I said before, 5 on 30 off is what the rest of the industry goes by, but I'm sure it's going to be a little different with different environments etc. You are doing quite well so keep up the good work. Next time will be even better now that you have some good help here.

My TAG garden always grows at least 2 times faster than my F & D garden does and gives me 2 times the yield. Can't beat it!

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Yeah, this pump I use is meant to run continuously. It's great because it barely gets warm to the touch and is completely silent. I can barely even hear it with my ear right next to it. It runs 125 psi at 0.1 gallons per minute. I purchased it from Mist King out of Canada. They run about $100 a piece or less. I will look it up the details for you when I get the chance.
Update, here is the pump I've been using for years. I think it's still the same one as this,
http://www.mistking.com/Standard-Diaphragm-misting-pump-with-zip-drip-valve.html

try not to drool all over your keyboard lol

I think that's an aquatec 6800, rebranded, the same petflora has ran in the past I believe (he's using the 8800 now, right?). It is supposed to be the quietest, however I didn't think it was that quiet that you can't hear it with your ear touching it?

 

[PetFlora]

I only hit 1100-1200 last week (for one week). Prior to that, both systems were getting ~ 800 ppms, and as of Friday I dropped back to ~ 800.

The biggest reason for the plants taking off (finally) was the switch to Hydroponic Research VEG + BLOOM

Keep in mind that although the plants in my hpa are the same F1 as Big Girl in my F & D, they expressed cola dominant genetics, whereas Big Girl expressed Sat dom.

I was trying to follow the accumulator w/d cycles as close as possible, so you Fonz (then TB) chimed in at the right time. Quite possibly my ~ 2-3 minute dry cycle was overferting, but I never had droplets on the roots. Currently at 4 seconds with dry cyle of 9 minutes 36 seconds, methodically working my way toward 15- 30 minutes

I am using an Aquatec 8800. Due to Pod Racers thread where many suffered from pump burn up, I bought a second 8800 for back up.

Both set ups were using a UFO 90 (~ 90% reds).

I used the same timer I use on my F & D (analog knobs for on/off cycles. It's lowest on cycle ~ 23 seconds. Those roots were a bunch of stringy tap roots: very few fish bones, no root hairs (see pic # 3). So my personal experience is the inverse of yours. What was I doing wrong?

I switched to a DIY bubbler using a 15L/min 4 head air pump with 4 large Oxystones in a Rubbermaid Roughneck tote (large show box size). The resultant DO rich moisture rocks the roots (pics # 1 & 2). 3rd pic is roots + hpa + 23 seconds

 

[Fonzarelli]

There is no way this pump could ever burn up because it never runs at full speed. It's factory set at like 25% power or something. The sound of the misting is louder than the pump when it's on. I had a 8800 once but it was a variable speed pump set at max 60 psi so it never ran at full speed either. One time the variable speed controller got disconnected and I tested the psi it was at 400 psi! There is no way this pump will ever burn up.

 

[Trichy Bastard]

Not sure about all that @400psi- and didn't realize they were variable speed pumps (are you sure?), but I've never had an aquatec myself to experience for myself (I have a flo-jet). I guess PF we want to be careful to not undo all the help and advancements you've recieved from Atomizer, however it was my thought based on Fonzarelli's claims that perhaps longer off times might be better since your roots get a bit wetter than ideal without the accumulator. I don't know what will work best in the end, but figure a little testing and trying won't hurt if you're up for it