Conservatives hate your constitution

[echelon1k1]

we use exactly the same techniques to subdue american criminals, both before and after trial.

why should illegal combatants in a foreign war be held to a higher standard than purse snatchers and muggers in california?

No you don't; not while interrogating a suspect. I've never heard of a LEO interviewing a suspect with a barking dog being used in any approach on US soil, especially if you want a conviction. While remanded in custody though, in the jail system, most certainly they are used to intimidate and gain compliance.

I don't think they should be held to a higher standard, but if you want the information they provide to turn out to be truthful and viable it's better not to torture them.

 

[Doer]

No you don't; not while interrogating a suspect. I've never heard of a LEO interviewing a suspect with a barking dog being used in any approach on US soil, especially if you want a conviction. While remanded in custody though, in the jail system, most certainly they are used to intimidate and gain compliance.

I don't think they should be held to a higher standard, but if you want the information they provide to turn out to be truthful and viable it's better not to torture them.

I read that at first to mean the cohered info cannot be used against them in Court...true..

But then I wondered, are you really just repeating that old saw, that torment in war time does not work?

I have never believed that for a second. What "Sargent" type in the Ancients ranks would not begin a field skinning, to find a lost man.

And we know, the American G.I. knew, from the beginning, what to use a hand cranked field phone, for, to find that lost guy.

To me torture and torment are totally different in aims. Torment is for information. Torture has deep psychological reasons behind it.

- The Inquisition, field expediency methods, and long term mammal aversion training, (waterboarding, etc) = Torment for information (or worthless confession RE: the Church)

- Torture as first defined by the Church is punishment. It involved severe physical wounding, not always to death. But, being broken on the Wheel, can not be described as torment.

Sadists and psychopaths torture for no end goal, but punishment for their own pleasure. Warlord Nation-States torture to make examples of the ends they go to punish. Suppose to be a determent. And it is for some but it take the torturer's soul. I think Che would have admitted that, about the punishment of the Batisitas.

Torment yields info, always has, and that is why it is has always been done. It will not stand up in court, but you can live on, in Gitmo with no physical scars.

 

[echelon1k1]

I read that at first to mean the cohered info cannot be used against them in Court...true..

But then I wondered, are you really just repeating that old saw, that torment in war time does not work?

I have never believed that for a second. What "Sargent" type in the Ancients ranks would not begin a field skinning, to find a lost man.

And we know, the American G.I. knew, from the beginning, what to use a hand cranked field phone, for, to find that lost guy.

To me torture and torment are totally different in aims. Torment is for information. Torture has deep psychological reasons behind it.

- The Inquisition, field expediency methods, and long term mammal aversion training, (waterboarding, etc) = Torment for information (or worthless confession RE: the Church)

- Torture as first defined by the Church is punishment. It involved severe physical wounding, not always to death. But, being broken on the Wheel, can not be described as torment.

Sadists and psychopaths torture for no end goal, but punishment for their own pleasure. Warlord Nation-States torture to make examples of the ends they go to punish. Suppose to be a determent. And it is for some but it take the torturer's soul. I think Che would have admitted that, about the punishment of the Batisitas.

Torment yields info, always has, and that is why it is has always been done. It will not stand up in court, but you can live on, in Gitmo with no physical scars.

As to the bolded: You are right, but the only question is to what degree is his version true? How verifiable is the info and how much do you have to RISK to verify the authenticity?

The reason I say this is many of the REAL senior jihadists that are sitting in a detention facility have had, to some degree, training on interrogation, counter intelligence/disinformation and selected SERE elements so it's not as if these folks will fall for the "good cop/bad cop" routine. I read many years ago about the sensory deprivation/bombardment techniques that were being using in GITMO; One of the staff psychologists was saying that with their techniques they can break a man mentally in a matter of hours to the point where he will never be the same again and that's without any physical aspects whatsoever. So while they might not show physical scars, but the psychological torment they endured might manifest itself in different ways.

 

[Doer]

As to the bolded: You are right, but the only question is to what degree is his version true? How verifiable is the info and how much do you have to RISK to verify the authenticity?

The reason I say this is many of the REAL senior jihadists that are sitting in a detention facility have had, to some degree, training on interrogation, counter intelligence/disinformation and selected SERE elements so it's not as if these folks will fall for the "good cop/bad cop" routine. I read many years ago about the sensory deprivation/bombardment techniques that were being using in GITMO; One of the staff psychologists was saying that with their techniques they can break a man mentally in a matter of hours to the point where he will never be the same again and that's without any physical aspects whatsoever. So while they might not show physical scars, but the psychological torment they endured might manifest itself in different ways.

Agreed. Which is way they cannot be tried, let go, or exposed to Red Crescent, yes?

Torment is mentally scarring, no doubt. PTSD at a minimum. But, Don't Tread on WE.

Remember, with aversion training, what you will risk for a new round of sessions is tell enough...the story is that is was enough to ID the importance of one courier over another....why balk at this one? Oshama bin Laden is Dead, for the use of that tiny tidbit.

He would rather go back to the WB, than be straight-up about this one guy????? Hmmmm.....pros notice what is left out, not what you say.

Besides, at this level, you are only asked pre-verifed questions, and your face map tells it all. The risk was already taken for the verification. But, you dared to lie...glub, glub.

We train SERE a bit different now, because of this. Info is strictly time valued, and your job is to dole out 1/2 truths until they get the whole truth. But, hopefully after the time value has expired.

Then when they turn on the camera, you use blink code to say, in secret, what you may have given up.

 

[Dr Kynes]

As to the bolded: You are right, but the only question is to what degree is his version true? How verifiable is the info and how much do you have to RISK to verify the authenticity?

The reason I say this is many of the REAL senior jihadists that are sitting in a detention facility have had, to some degree, training on interrogation, counter intelligence/disinformation and selected SERE elements so it's not as if these folks will fall for the "good cop/bad cop" routine. I read many years ago about the sensory deprivation/bombardment techniques that were being using in GITMO; One of the staff psychologists was saying that with their techniques they can break a man mentally in a matter of hours to the point where he will never be the same again and that's without any physical aspects whatsoever. So while they might not show physical scars, but the psychological torment they endured might manifest itself in different ways.

i'm really not that fussed about the delicate flower captured on battlefeilds or in spiderholes plotting mass murder for their ideology.

if hooking up a car battery to their genitals gets them singing about their plots and co-conspirators, ill pay for a few Duralast deep cycles myself.

 

[Rob Roy]

i'm really not that fussed about the delicate flower captured on battlefeilds or in spiderholes plotting mass murder for their ideology.

if hooking up a car battery to their genitals gets them singing about their plots and co-conspirators, ill pay for a few Duralast deep cycles myself.

Maybe if the USA weren't invading/occupying/policing so many people, there wouldn't BE a battlefield.

 

[Bombur]

Maybe if the USA weren't invading/occupying/policing so many people, there wouldn't BE a battlefield.

But we need to police/invade, because if we dont then they'll attack us at home, because they're angry about all the policing/invading!

Our solution to blowback = respond with the exact behaviors that prompted it in the first place.

 

[Rob Roy]

But we need to police/invade, because if we dont then they'll attack us at home, because they're angry about all the policing/invading!

Our solution to blowback = respond with the exact behaviors that prompted it in the first place.

Yet there is no provision for invading other countries in the constitution or maintaining a standing army. It's almost like the constitution is like a chameleon or something...written by the lizard people maybe?

 

[echelon1k1]

if hooking up a car battery to their genitals gets them singing about their plots and co-conspirators

what happens when the info is bullshit and you lose assets and/or resources trying to verify it's authenticity?

A well thought through and tailored interrogation plan using a psychological approach that has been proven to work is the only way to go if you want to avoid the needless spinning of wheels based on B/S

 

[Dr Kynes]

the other alternatives:

Oprah runs the interrogations on her show.
Guaranteed emotional breakdown in less than 30 minutes.

we could unleash the Tickle Monster...

or have Bearded Spock brainrape them for information.

or we could just do it RIGHT....

 

[echelon1k1]

what's wrong with playing "whack-a-terrorist"?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=82b_1327852344

 

[Dr Kynes]

what's wrong with playing "whack-a-terrorist"?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=82b_1327852344

i think they may have got that one.

but i would have dropped a cartoon anvil on him, just to be sure.

 

[UncleBuck]

if hooking up a car battery to their genitals gets them singing about their plots and co-conspirators, ill pay for a few Duralast deep cycles myself.

except only dumbasses think that such techniques are effective.

bribes and (false) promises go a lot further.*

i remember the story of one intelligence official who gained some nifty secrets by promising some afghani that he could get him a divorce from his wife. all lies, but he got the info he wanted.

and unlike confessions obtained under duress or torture, which you seem to be OK with, the info he gave was legit.

but perhaps you just like torturing people for false leads.

 

[UncleBuck]

or we could just do it RIGHT....

alright, so kynes is for torture.

glad we've established that.

 

[echelon1k1]

alright, so kynes is for torture.

glad we've established that.

and stormfrontbuck* is all for bombing the shit outta American children...

At this stage, what difference does it make?

 

[Dr Kynes]

alright, so kynes is for torture.

glad we've established that.

and yet, the interrogation techniques used on illegal combatant detainees is NOT TORTURE unless you TORTURE the definition of TORTURE beyond all reason.

putting a harmless caterpillar in the cell with a dumbass who thinks it is a deadly venemous insect with lightning reflexes and a cruel bite is NOT torture you idiot.

smashing a guy's head through a breakaway wall so other detainees will thing they are gonna get taken to Pound Town is NOT torture.

lining up your hajis on an airstrip and slapping destination tags like Kuwait, UAE, Chad and Egypt on their chests so they think they will be sent to secret (imaginary) cia prisons where they WILL be seriously tortured is NOT torture.

making the haji listen to blaring discordant music with flashing lights is NOT torture (some people actually pay to have that done to them, google Dubstep)

putting your hajis in a Dudepile to humiliate them in front of a lowly female, especially one not wearing a beekeeper outfit is NOT torture.

strapping a haji to a board and throwing water in his face is NOT torture.

but yes, since these fools CHOSE to become hajis, and Chose to plot to blow up hospitals and murder girls for going to school, they have become enemies of all mankind, sacrificing all rights to humane treatment.

i say thumbscrews, the Pear of Misery, and genital cuffs are in order.

 

[UncleBuck]

ok, so kynes is for torture even knowing that it produces more false leads and diminishes our standing in the world.

 

[echelon1k1]

ok, so kynes is for torture even knowing that it produces more false leads and diminishes our standing in the world.

so is Obama. you support his policies so by applying that "guilt by association label", which BTW is now a legitimate crime under the Obama administration, you also support torture.

That's right buckyboy, torture continues under Obama.

 

[UncleBuck]

so is Obama. you support his policies so by applying that "guilt by association label", which BTW is now a legitimate crime under the Obama administration, you also support torture.

That's right buckyboy, torture continues under Obama.

you don't know shit.

go back to your armchair patton act and pop some more pills, junkie.

 

[echelon1k1]

you don't know shit.

go back to your armchair patton act and pop some more pills, junkie.

I obviously know more than you and you claim I'm a junkie, so where does that leave you in the pecking order?

You're wrong again, so just admit it... You support torture.

Commandos Hold Afghan Detainees in Secret Jails

Human rights groups have been sounding the alarm about these detention centers since 2009. Detainees who claim to have gone through the sites have told them about abuses inside the so-called “Black Jails” ranging from sleep deprivation to punching. Human Rights First’s Daphne Eviatar (disclosure: a former colleague of mine at the Washington Independent) tells Dozier that inmates at the JSOC sites are “forced to strip naked, then kept in solitary confinement in windowless, often cold cells with lights on 24 hours a day.” All of that is supposed to be banned under Obama’s January 2009 executive order on interrogations.

Clearly the White House is happy with JSOC’s performance in Afghanistan. Its commander, Vice. Adm. William McRaven, has been nominated to lead the U.S. Special Operations Command. Don’t expect the Democratic-controlled Senate to grill McRaven on the jails. Its kid-glove treatment of former JSOC chief Gen. Stanley McChrystal over Camp Nama heralded its see-no-evil approach to torture now that a Democratic president runs the show.