Holy OverFed Cannabis Batman! (Or: Watering is not the #1 Newbie Problem)

Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Well-Known Member
I'll wait till you actually try this yourself and have real world experience to draw from.

I've personally seen the difference between the same strain in different levels of organically amended soil. There is zero comparison, cannabis does not selectively uptake nutes. If it did, you could throw a 6" clone into Sub-Cool's supersoil under CFLs and grow awesome cannabis. That just doesn't happen.

Period.

Yes, there's a HUGE misconception that cannabis selectively feeds when in organics. This is so not true it isn't funny. EVERYONE who has done the experiment I suggest picks the lower/properly amended soil grown cannabis as "The Best" every time.

When you do it yourself, you'll agree with me. Until then, well... you won't.

Douglas
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Well-Known Member
Bugeye said:
Were not going to agree that different strains have a different optimal color of green? Oh well.
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They most certainly do, sorry if that wasn't clear.

This is why I advocate slowly ramping up feed levels and seeing where maximum growth rates stop at. The color will be the color, I'm saying that you'll rarely (if ever) find a plant that grows better quality at a darker color.

Watch the growth rates, not the color. :)

Douglas
(I've seen sativas with VERY light green leaves and some indicas with dark(er) leaves. Not the really dark green I see most often though.)
 
714steadyeddie

714steadyeddie

Well-Known Member
Bugeye said:
Were not going to agree that different strains have a different optimal color of green? Oh well.
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Man up son. You don't always have to agree. Douglas has some good information and to be honest the only way You can talk is if you really did grew the same Strian in different soil types etc.

No need to hate on the guy he's just tryna help us newbies out
 
Bugeye

Bugeye

Well-Known Member
714steadyeddie said:
Man up son. You don't always have to agree. Douglas has some good information and to be honest the only way You can talk is if you really did grew the same Strian in different soil types etc.

No need to hate on the guy he's just tryna help us newbies out
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Obviously we don't have to agree. But being afraid you are red lining a plant based just on color is foolish. If one concedes that different strains have different shades of green when grown optimally, obviously some will be darker shades.
 
714steadyeddie

714steadyeddie

Well-Known Member
Bugeye said:
Obviously we don't have to agree. But being afraid you are red lining a plant based just on color is foolish. If one concedes that different strains have different shades of green when grown optimally, obviously some will be darker shades.
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I get your point but the under lying suggestion you are missing is that the growth rates WITH the color of leaves suggest different variations of results. Its the combination of both elements that make up the final product
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
The shade of green really means nothing. What about plants that are so green that they look blue? Purple strains?

I say Douglas is confusing newbs even more.

Don't be scared of dark green.

If they start looking black and clawing then you have a problem.

The op made a blanket statement. It doesn't hold true for all strains.

If its not clawing, don't worry.
 
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Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Well-Known Member
whitebb2727 said:
If its not clawing, don't worry.
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Quality is shot, long before clawing. I posted a simple method for determining the optimum feed level for any plant. I don't care what your final color is, if you do it right you'll stop increasing the feed WAY before you reach a dark green or clawing.

I try to make sure I'm posting about things I have significant experience with. I also try not to talk negatively about things I don't understand or have significant experience with. I appreciate it when others do the same. :)
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
Douglas.Curtis said:
Quality is shot, long before clawing. I posted a simple method for determining the optimum feed level for any plant. I don't care what your final color is, if you do it right you'll stop increasing the feed WAY before you reach a dark green or clawing.

I try to make sure I'm posting about things I have significant experience with. I also try not to talk negatively about things I don't understand or have significant experience with. I appreciate it when others do the same. :)
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You didn't post anything but conjecture.

At what shade of green is best? How do you determine that shade?

Cannabis is naturally every color from light neon green to blue/purple to even black. Yes, even black.

I say its conjecture and confusing to new growers.

Now if you want to post some pics of various strains that you compared with the different shades included then we might get somewhere.

Otherwise, I say you are blowing smoke and confusing people.
 
Cyrus420

Cyrus420

Well-Known Member
Douglas.Curtis said:
Quality is shot, long before clawing. I posted a simple method for determining the optimum feed level for any plant. I don't care what your final color is, if you do it right you'll stop increasing the feed WAY before you reach a dark green or clawing.

I try to make sure I'm posting about things I have significant experience with. I also try not to talk negatively about things I don't understand or have significant experience with. I appreciate it when others do the same. :)
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You never actually say anything, you just give generic advice wrapped up in scientific sophistry.
 
Grandaddy7

Grandaddy7

Active Member
Douglas do you let your plants inform you on nutrient needs before you feed them or do you just kind of have a feel at this point or a mixture of both?

I'm assuming it depends on strains and other things.
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Well-Known Member
Grandaddy7 said:
Douglas do you let your plants inform you on nutrient needs before you feed them or do you just kind of have a feel at this point or a mixture of both?

I'm assuming it depends on strains and other things.
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Good question.
I start with base lucas with any strain and go from there. The last few years I've run a very high transpiration environment (72F canopy, 20% average RH) and have found full lucas to be a bit strong for some plants. GG#4 can stand full lucas and a bit more, she's a beast. Canna-Tsu wants less and sees growth slow down when fed the same as GG#4. She gets dark and then slows that rapid pace of full growth.

So I really rely on the general purpose nature of the lucas mix 8:16 and then go by plant reaction from there. Each strain is different, some wanting more or less, for that max growth rate. Once that rate is reached, leave the nutrient level at that rate. Increasing amendments or nutrients is just throwing money away, pushing isn't going to make it grow faster.

I really prefer to use clones, so I can run them multiple times and get to know them very well.
 
GuyLeDuche

GuyLeDuche

Well-Known Member
Well at least we're keeping the comments objective and constructive :eyeroll:

I felt like the OP was trying to share his experiences in an effort to spark thought, and I know I was one of the newbs thinking my plants were happy because they were dark green...I've learned since but others may not have yet... Good stuff and thanks for putting it out there I say :)
 
jarvild

jarvild

Well-Known Member
I'm a notorious low nutrient feeder (400-500ppm max.) but I still have strains that that tend to have darker leaves than others. Just as an example I have Cherry Pie crosses that have high anthocyanin levels that produce dark waxy leaves whether I feed them at 200ppm or 500ppm.

I agree with you're philosophy on nutrient strengths, but each phenotype of a plant has different genetic make-up from the next with different levels of pigments besides chlorophyll that influences coloring.
 
calliandra

calliandra

Well-Known Member
Douglas.Curtis said:
cannabis does not selectively uptake nutes.
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Excuse me Sir, but that's just not correct.
Research in the past 50 years or so has shown that plants live in a cooperative web with soil life. There is still LOTS to be discovered there for sure, but researchers have been able to cast light upon some parts of the process. So we know today that about 50% of the output of photosynthesis is used by the plant to feed specifically those microorganisms that will deliver the nutrients it needs in any given moment. So there is very complex and variegated action going on in the root zone.

Contrary to what you said there, most plants (including cannabis) do select for the nutrients they need when given a biologically healthy soil to work in. The only reason the chemical approach to growing plants looks like it works is because the soil food webs were already damaged when we started using those leftovers from World War II on the fields. Plants have a few different mechanisms by which they can absorb nutrients (e.g. endocytosis - which involves plants eating microorganisms and big composite molecules "alive" haha -, and there are people saying remutation is also somehow relevant to plant nutrition), so they can actually ALSO survive being force-fed chemical nutes. But that's not their normal way.

Mind you, I don't blame you for not knowing.
Chemical industry has done a great job in brainwashing us into thinking we need to feed the plants. But just think on it for a sec - how the fuck!! did nature get by all those millenia until IG Farben, Bayer, Syngenta, Monsanto and all them came along to save the day??? :eyesmoke:

When actually, we don't even know which nutrients a plant really needs!
In the 1950's they said it's just N-P-K. A few years later they added iron and (I think) calcium and magnesium to the list. And so it went on, until today, where the list of nutrients plants need has risen to 42.
But no, that's not the end-all answer either LOL - that list still excludes stuff like arsenic, which plants need in tiny amounts to be able to even stand up. Biologists are now guessing that in the end it will turn out that plants need all the stuff on the periodic table sometime in their lives.

Cheers :bigjoint:
 
whitebb2727

whitebb2727

Well-Known Member
Douglas.Curtis said:
I'll let you re-read the thread, including the places where I explained just that, in detail.

Nice.
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You didn't go into detail. Show me some pics on how to decide.
calliandra said:
Excuse me Sir, but that's just not correct.
Research in the past 50 years or so has shown that plants live in a cooperative web with soil life. There is still LOTS to be discovered there for sure, but researchers have been able to cast light upon some parts of the process. So we know today that about 50% of the output of photosynthesis is used by the plant to feed specifically those microorganisms that will deliver the nutrients it needs in any given moment. So there is very complex and variegated action going on in the root zone.

Contrary to what you said there, most plants (including cannabis) do select for the nutrients they need when given a biologically healthy soil to work in. The only reason the chemical approach to growing plants looks like it works is because the soil food webs were already damaged when we started using those leftovers from World War II on the fields. Plants have a few different mechanisms by which they can absorb nutrients (e.g. endocytosis - which involves plants eating microorganisms and big composite molecules "alive" haha -, and there are people saying remutation is also somehow relevant to plant nutrition), so they can actually ALSO survive being force-fed chemical nutes. But that's not their normal way.

Mind you, I don't blame you for not knowing.
Chemical industry has done a great job in brainwashing us into thinking we need to feed the plants. But just think on it for a sec - how the fuck!! did nature get by all those millenia until IG Farben, Bayer, Syngenta, Monsanto and all them came along to save the day??? :eyesmoke:

When actually, we don't even know which nutrients a plant really needs!
In the 1950's they said it's just N-P-K. A few years later they added iron and (I think) calcium and magnesium to the list. And so it went on, until today, where the list of nutrients plants need has risen to 42.
But no, that's not the end-all answer either LOL - that list still excludes stuff like arsenic, which plants need in tiny amounts to be able to even stand up. Biologists are now guessing that in the end it will turn out that plants need all the stuff on the periodic table sometime in their lives.

Cheers :bigjoint:
Click to expand...
Well said.
 
Douglas.Curtis

Douglas.Curtis

Well-Known Member
calliandra said:
Excuse me Sir, but that's just not correct.
Research in the past 50 years or so has shown that plants live in a cooperative web with soil life. There is still LOTS to be discovered there for sure, but researchers have been able to cast light upon some parts of the process. So we know today that about 50% of the output of photosynthesis is used by the plant to feed specifically those microorganisms that will deliver the nutrients it needs in any given moment. So there is very complex and variegated action going on in the root zone.

Contrary to what you said there, most plants (including cannabis) do select for the nutrients they need when given a biologically healthy soil to work in. The only reason the chemical approach to growing plants looks like it works is because the soil food webs were already damaged when we started using those leftovers from World War II on the fields.
Click to expand...
Oh, my goodness.
See, this is the junk that needs to go away. This is PERFECTLY FINE for vegetables. Cannabis is not a vegetable.

Seriously. If cannabis was a selective feeder (because the organic web only supplies what's needed) then why does Sub-Cool's supersoil (a heavily amended organic mix) nearly kill young plants? Were cannabis a "Selective Feeder" you would be able to give it MASSIVE amendments and, wow, it would grow just fine. The term 'overfed' would not apply. Ever.

Cannabis does not selectively grab nutrients from the soil. There would be no reason to have soil mixes that 'work better' than others and the organic section of grow forums would be drop dead simple.

You can use 3 buckets of organic soil, all amended with different strengths and grow awesome cucumbers in all 3 pots. The cannabis will be the best out of the least amended pot, which still provided full nutrition.

End of Story. Using refined mineral nutrients shows the exact same effects, only quicker.

Don't believe me? Do it Yourself.

Douglas
 
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