MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods
- Thread starter tree farmer
- Start date
- Status
G
growman 5000
Guest
Explain Mesh mod please? Do you think it would create full pressure, or what do you think it would lack if just left as it is?
G
growman 5000
Guest
Just double checking, are these the sprayers everyone would still recomend for a 40 psi iwaki pump?
http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=553
None of you who have gone to super high pressure have any of these misters laying around do you? Im about to put in an order for some, but cheaper is always better.
http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=553
None of you who have gone to super high pressure have any of these misters laying around do you? Im about to put in an order for some, but cheaper is always better.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
Mesh mod is grinding the vanes off the impeller or otherwise replacing the face with mesh rather than plastic. The mesh can be anything from green scrubber pads stacked and sewn to the face of the impeller or just zip tied on. There's also better mesh you can order off ebay or meshmod.net or org or whatever. Google mesh mod or look it up on youtube or something. Nobody in the grow world does it that I know of yet but I mentioned it a few weeks back as an alternative to a large expensive needle wheel pump like the Reeflo Orca when Fatman suggested that pump for large scale dwc using a needle wheel pump/venturi setup rather than an air pump and stones. Reeflo orca is something like $500, but a mesh modded normal pump would actually work better and be a lot cheaper.
I seem to get more pressure out of the pumps I have modded with very tight mesh like the scrubber pads, but other materials with larger mesh you would get less, it's up to you. It's probably more appropriate for dwc though or just to reuse an otherwise broken pump for water transfer, not really for high pressure apps.
I seem to get more pressure out of the pumps I have modded with very tight mesh like the scrubber pads, but other materials with larger mesh you would get less, it's up to you. It's probably more appropriate for dwc though or just to reuse an otherwise broken pump for water transfer, not really for high pressure apps.
clydefrog
Well-Known Member
thanks again for the info. if its ok to throw another iwaki q at you...(in the bud room this time)
i'm cycling my solenoid system right now like you suggested and with all the drippage i'm getting i'm having to recirc my nutrients.
would cycling the pump instead hurt it? right now I'm spraying on for 20 sec...off for 4 min and the plants are responding really well. so i'd be kicking the pump on 15 times an hour instead of running constantly.
thanks again for the help.
fatman7574
New Member
I would just consider using a second solenoid before I considered cycling the pump. Vane type pumps do not hold out well with frequent cycling. They make what are called divertor solenoid valves or three way divertor valves. They would work ideally in your setup but they are more expensive in general than just using two solenoid valves plus they typically are not avilable in any larger sizes. I have an extra Plastomatic divertor valve. I thought I got it at an excellent price at $85 with shipping from an eBay seller. It is only a 1/2" valve with a 1/4" orifice and is rated at 40 psi. However a two way 40 psi valve the same size with the same orifice size is rated at 100 psi and costs $100 on eBay or about $145 from a retailer. The water contact surfaces are all plastic/rubber, no metal contact. Hayward makes really good 2 way solenoid valves but the are also expensive, but cheaper than plastomatic on ebay. Retail the 3/4" or 1" 110 volt run about $325, and the 1/2" 24 volt runs about $310. Either the 1/2" 24 Volt or the 1" would work well but the 3/4" is too expensive. So that means the likely best choice for a second solenoid would be the 1" Hayward solenoid. The 24 volt would require a 24 volt transformer and a relay if your timer is a 110volt out put so the costs would be about the same if you have to buy those components. The wattage is only 19 to 22 watts so a relay would not be need for the 100 volt solenoid.
See my PM.
I use a lot of Hayward valves, both 24 volt and 110 volt depending on the Ebay costs. I just bought 12 1/2" 24 volt valves just a few weeks ago. I also use Hayward 110 volt 3 way actuated ball valves for reef tanks. I have never been disappointed in performance of any Hayward valves. Plastomatic are exceptional also but are not as common so are not available as cheaply on ebay. Plastomatic does have a broader range of products in the way of industrial grade valves than Hayward.
See my PM.
I use a lot of Hayward valves, both 24 volt and 110 volt depending on the Ebay costs. I just bought 12 1/2" 24 volt valves just a few weeks ago. I also use Hayward 110 volt 3 way actuated ball valves for reef tanks. I have never been disappointed in performance of any Hayward valves. Plastomatic are exceptional also but are not as common so are not available as cheaply on ebay. Plastomatic does have a broader range of products in the way of industrial grade valves than Hayward.
fatman7574
New Member
Yes those are the right misters.
No offense intended, but if you guys are going to keep asking questions about medium prsessure systems with Iwaki pumps and divertor solenoids valves it would probably be better to open a seperate thread. Something like Medium Pressure Aero with Divertor Valves. This would keep the discussion in this thread more within the scope of the thread title. I know I started the scope creep but at the time the thread was small and I thought the medium pressure aspect would not draw attention but just get some opinions from Tree Farmer and Atomizer. I doid not expect it to grow from there.
fatman7574
New Member
Mesh modding is a way of making a air chopping pump out of a standard pump. It is used instead of a needle valve pump. The reason is to chop larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. It is used usually in conjunction with a venturi valve that draws in air. The air is then chopped into many very, very small bubbles. The air not the pump drops the flow and pressure. It would only make sense though that the needle wheels and mesh mod pumps are less efficient at producing water volume and pressure than a standard pump impeller. These systems are more geared for NTF and DWC systems, or other ssytems where a high DO is desired in the reservoir or in running water from a resrvoir. High DI in a high pressure or medium prssure reservoir is not of any benefit. The water just needs enough DO to not support anaerobic bacteria (oxygen hating). The spraying action in a medium or high pressure aero mist assures a very high DO nutrient solution is delivered to the aero roots.
Again, not trying to be an *ss hole, but this is also a topic that would be more appropriattely covered in a new thread as mentioned above.
Tree Farmer,
Below is the PVC atomizing nozzles I mentioned previously. Does the black flat spray (PVC) pictured look familiar? If you compare to the Atomix nozzle you will find the nozzle itself seems to be PVC and the body stainless steel. The nozzle bodies are available in PVC as well. This should bring the the complete nozzle cost down.
www.pnramerica.com/pdfs/p57.pdf
What I need now is the numbers to better decide what nozzle size best suits the application.
Keep it growing...
Below is the PVC atomizing nozzles I mentioned previously. Does the black flat spray (PVC) pictured look familiar? If you compare to the Atomix nozzle you will find the nozzle itself seems to be PVC and the body stainless steel. The nozzle bodies are available in PVC as well. This should bring the the complete nozzle cost down.
www.pnramerica.com/pdfs/p57.pdf
What I need now is the numbers to better decide what nozzle size best suits the application.
Keep it growing...
clydefrog
Well-Known Member
that's fine...i'm taking some pics of my setup tomorrow and i'll get one started. i got your pm...i've got a spare asco stainless 3/4 i might put on there, but after this cycle i'm gonna go accumulator hp since it seems to be the most water/nutrient/growth efficient.
G
growman 5000
Guest
in response to he dripping problem, and the diverter valve fatman mentioned,
What about if instead you used 2 solenoid valves, and had them as oposite on off's, and if you only have 2 solenoid valves that are both the same normally open or normally closed, then attach one to a relay as mentioned about 10 pages back, so that when one opens, the other closes, and visa versa.
What about if instead you used 2 solenoid valves, and had them as oposite on off's, and if you only have 2 solenoid valves that are both the same normally open or normally closed, then attach one to a relay as mentioned about 10 pages back, so that when one opens, the other closes, and visa versa.
tree farmer
Well-Known Member
they look similar. i think in the end youll find that the amount of thruput you put thru the nozzles in any given chamber size depends totaly on the placement of the nozzles, the number of plants per chamber and the stage of growth.
with the air assisted you can vary the input air pressure as well as the timer settings to get what you need i would think from most of these AAN(air assisted nozzles).
id deciede on a chamber size and then talk to a tech rep and ask him to refer you to a nozzle or 2 that could fill that volume with 30-80 micron droplets at a reasonable air pressure with in a few seconds at most.
then it will come down to fine tuning the air pressure and timing cycles by observing the roots to determine when you have it dialed in correctly.
fatman7574
New Member
Actually the most efficient is the air assisted atomized sprayers as it is more efficient to compress air than a fluid which is seesentially in compressible. That means your really just compressing the air in the accululators air bladder. The pumps used for the accumulator are more economical then the oil less air compressors though. But then the air atomizers systems allow for much more fine tuning as you can use different nozzle sizes plus you can vary the output from the nozzles by vary the nutrient feed hi s eight and by varyingthe air pressure and or air volume.
Really though the principal thing to look at is what will give you the ultimate water droplet size and either system can do that. Which system allows the chamber to be entirely filled with the water droplets and both can do that. Both can put out spray for short periods of time. Both with a solenoid for each sprayer allows variation of spray for each nozzle if needed. The HP accumulator system is limited by the more limited usable nozzles available but their nozzles are also a lot cheaper. So the most efficient and most adjustable is the air atomized but it also if using all new retailed parts is also about 4 times the cost, maybe a bit more.
Both systems can be used equally efficient for a drain to wast system. This eliminates trying to keep reservoir water adjusted or trying to maintain eservoir DO. Themperatures are not even a problem for the reservoir as log as you can keep the temps at the plant temp or down to about 15 or 20 degress below that. Chlorine can be easily used to control bacteria in either system.
Buying major components on eBay allows for the construction of an air atomized sytem for about 150% to 200% of the cost of a HP accumulator tank system. The cost of shipping a compressor and the larger heavier air storage tank adds to the costs real quick.
Dude Man
Member
I like your set up it looks great!!!
could you point me to some good nut info?
i am using PBP,
I am tring to use the premix caculator, but ran in to some trouble?
i use to just go by the lable but i can tell from reading i can't get away with that here.
any help would be great...
could you point me to some good nut info?
i am using PBP,
I am tring to use the premix caculator, but ran in to some trouble?
i use to just go by the lable but i can tell from reading i can't get away with that here.
any help would be great...
tree farmer
Well-Known Member
if your trying to run a hp system youll need to keep the ppm of the solution lower than your use to. you need to have a meter to really see what level your feeding. i wouldnt recommend the label ppm level for HP aero.
if you dont have or cant get a meter start out with maybe 15-20 percent of whats recommended for normal hydro and then work up slowly. if you have a meter then start at 100ppm or less for a rooted clone. this only applies if your running a high pressure mist with short mist cycles(under 2 secconds) any more than that and you can run somewhat higher numbers.
here is a couple threads you can find some info about different nutrient ratios.
you need to have a decent ratio of NPK with a high pressure system because your running so much lower ppm.
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/295437-methodical-scientific-approach-nutrients-nutrient-15.html
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/268790-lucas-formula-recipe-scratch-really.html
Hi tree farmer,
I just read 6 pages of Fatmans' link you supplied and found it very informative. If I remember correctly the ratio he gave for a comfortable NPK ratio was around where I was when using DWC.
With all this info floating around in my head I had a thought regarding the "to drain method" and it was you that spawned it in one of your earlier posts (I could be wrong but bear with me it's getting late, tired and I have to get to work tomorrow morning).
Assuming you had the perfect nutrient ratio (...ok..close enough to..) for whatever stage of growth your in and you took a ppm reading of eg. 500ppm going in from the reservoir and 200ppm going to drain in a 24hr. period you find that the grow consumed 300ppm's.
Would it be safe to say that you could get away with a reservoir solution of 300ppm or maybe add 10% for 330ppm's and reduce your nute waste further? All of this after you have set your misting cycles to get the fluffy root area.
Just a thought.
OregonMeds
Well-Known Member
You weren't being an asshole, and you're right as always but I have to explain one thing before we drop this.
The reason I am getting what really does seriously appear to be more flow and pressure both out of my modded pumps (when not using a venturi) is because their impellers weren't as large as they could have been given the space available in the volute.
I don't have a pic to show what I did and can't give you one, but I stacked these, sewed them on the impeller, then trimmed it as round and fitted as I could get it with hardly any rubbing. After a little use it wasn't rubbing at all any more, and they're still going. It's only been a few weeks though, and I can tell they run warmer to be fair.
Which as you can imagine would and did change things completely, so it's completely dependent on pump. It's got to be less efficient and drawing more watts, nothing is free, and still probably not going to work on a high pressure app as well as a properly engineered pump. It's probably a failure waiting to happen if you don't add a bypass to bleed some pressure off and keep enough water going to cool it in case it got backed up in a high pressure app.
It doesn't quite apply in this thread, but it sorta does because everyone could find a use for some water movement from a broken pump you didn't think you could use again, or for aeration somewhere, for an emergency at the worst time or something... Who knows, we aren't all just doing the same stuff and we like to tinker.
Aero is pretty thrifty on nutes compared to most other methods
If the plants remove say 200ppm of a single element (N,P or K) from the 500ppm solution, the 330ppm solution wouldn`t contain enough to begin with.
fatman7574
New Member
Potassium drives the osmosis/transpiration cycle. You determine the EC you need to get the transpiration you need based upon your growing conditions (climatic parameters). The water needs are based upon your transpiration. The anmount you can transpiarte is based uppon potassium levels (potassium levels set your EC level). Your needs for nitrogen and phosphorus are based upon tissue samples (not practical for us) actual nutrients extracted by nutrient testing (also not practical for most of us) or by the tds in versus out and adjusting to a set point of say a 50% return of TDS. You adjust the ppm so that 50% comes back and observe plant growth to make sure no deficiencies show up. There is always the chance if using a formulation there can be a gross inbalance and for example 600 ppm provides just barely all the nitrogen you need and puts out to drainage 350 ppm. Then you lower to say 550 ppm going in and have a nitrogen shortage. Like atomizer said EC or TDS based upon EC does not really give a true TDS as different salts conduct electricity at different rates. Each set of conditions, evey EC and every plant strain effects the TDS required. In actuality your EC should always remain the same through out the growth but what makes up the EC differs. So basically you use a good proprotion fertilizer like 2:1:2 or 3:1:3 and find the EC based TDS needed for each stage of growth through experimentation and good record keeping for the strain your growing and the conditions you are providing. Once you find the nutrient needs you dilute to those levels and then just up your EC back with Potassium typically to return to the EC you need to maintain the proper transpiration for the climatic conditions you are maintaining.
HP and air atomized systems out side of tighting controlled selaed grow rooms are tyhe least understood sytem when it comes to GENERAL NEEDS. What is understood though is they are the nost efficient fastest growing systems that can best withstand the most jacked up maxed out climatic parametersare the least understood as
A simple way to look at it is while to some degree you pick a plant strain based upon the climatic conditions you provide you still need to adjust your EC and nutrient levels to the individual strain you choose. There is no set standards for all plants mj plants. All are different and the same strain responds differently with different climatic conditions, different nutrient levels and different EC. It is quite hard for people to try to get in their minds the difference in using EC to judge nutrient levels and using EC to adjust osmosis or transpiration. A simple wat to look at it is if you use just a nutrient formula such as 6:3 and run an EC of 2 you will likely fry your plants with ecxcess nutrients. But if you dilute your 6:3:6 fertilizer down to a EC of 0.75 or 1 the plants will not be over fertilized but your transpiration will be low so your growth will be slow. But then if your raise your EC up from 0.75 or 1 to an EC of 1.5 with pottassium you will not fry your plants but will instead increase your tranpiration back up to the needs. Basically you have to find an ideal nutrient level and a ideal EC. They are really determined independently of each other. Your EC is dependent on observation of plant wilting and humidity so are related also to the amount of water you are providing. But even if providing a lot of water withut a high enough EC due to an adequate potassium level you still wil not take up adequate water but will instead just cahnge your root system to one with less hair roots.
There is a learning curve with every type of growing system however the nutrient manafacturers have made it easier g for most growers by fornulationg nutrients for veg and bloom which are developed by doing the same testing with several average type sytsems and common strains and have simply averaged the results out and suplly forn multaions that worjk well enough. They have not done that reserach for HP or air atomized sytems. Even resarch done for NASA has not been through enough for development of a set of averages for the grains and such they have been doing tets with for many years. There can be some many variations due to climatic differences that they have developed growing chambers which are sealed rooms that are fully controlled to finish their testing. So even once they finish their testing it will not really be that useful to anyone eccept those growers using sealed growing rooms.
I don't know if this helped anyone alot but it does show that there is a lot of practices in HP or atomized grows that must be learned that can be ignored with the long term more inefficient grows such as DWC, NTF and low pressure aero grow systems. HP Aero tinkeritis can upset everything also. You basically need to almost entirely build your system to the maxin mum you intend from the beginning as for climatic control as any change later just about means doing the testing for EC and nutrient levels all over if yoyu cahnge anything very much ie by addoing CO2 or dehumification or air conditioning. Changes cause impacts that are noticeable almost instantly with HP aeo and air atomized aero. With less efficient systems the changes cause plnats impcats more slowly and therefore are often not noticed or if they are they are not often attributed to the climatic changes.
ypically when doing testing you only want to change one variable in your testing. For example leave every parameter the same. IE watering cycles, lighting, temp, humidity, CO2 and EC except (in test series 1) vary nutrient concentration (consider additional potassium needed to adjust EC not as a nutrien=nt but just and osmosis/transpirtaion regulator).
In test series 2, Leave every parameter the same but vary something like your magnesium concentrations.
Test series 3 incorporate your learnings from tests 1 and 2 and then maybe alter the CO2 levels or the temp or humidity (only one though).
All these tests are done with the same plant strain and phenotype, IE plants preferably clones from the same mother stock.
As you can sse anything can possibly make a noticeable difference, maybe for the better (you hope after all the time and work).
The sad thing is even if you get good results you need to be able to repeat the same tests and get the same results. If you can do this you have obtained research reserach data based on what is called the scientific method. For someone to be able to refute the data they must run the same test twice exactly as you and come up with different result from you in both of their tests.
The simpliset grows for HP aero and air atomized aeros are SOG. Large plants are more difficult as in general with a high hair root percentage as you tend to get very fast growing dwarfs due to very closely spaced internodes due to the efficiency of nutrient water up take.
Beginning Formula Diluted Down to an HP Aero usable strength.
Nitrogen 80
Phosphorus 25
Potassium 87
Magnesium 28
Calcium 79
Sulfur 37
Iron 3.30
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.67
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03
EC 0.83
TDS 581
Diluted Again beacuse your drain to waster showed over 60% of TDS was going down the drain
Nitrogen 60
Phosphorus 19
Potassium 65
Magnesium 21
Calcium 59
Sulfur 28
Iron 2.50
Manganese 1.25
Boron 1.25
Zinc 1.25
Copper .25
Molybdenum .03
EC 0.62 (note decrease in EC that came with lowering TDS) Ideally you want to raise the EC back up to the previous 0.83 but without adding nitrogen or salts that just antagonize each other. With mj this usually means increasing principally the potassium, followed by magnesium and then phophorus in the form of Phosphoric acid as it will be needed anyway to counter the rise in pH caused by the potassium hydroxide added. This restores your high tranpiration rate and lowers stress that would be caused by varying the EC. Some people also add a bit of sodium chloride (not calcium nitrate). However, most people simply let the plants get stessed a little by the EC change.
HP and air atomized systems out side of tighting controlled selaed grow rooms are tyhe least understood sytem when it comes to GENERAL NEEDS. What is understood though is they are the nost efficient fastest growing systems that can best withstand the most jacked up maxed out climatic parametersare the least understood as
A simple way to look at it is while to some degree you pick a plant strain based upon the climatic conditions you provide you still need to adjust your EC and nutrient levels to the individual strain you choose. There is no set standards for all plants mj plants. All are different and the same strain responds differently with different climatic conditions, different nutrient levels and different EC. It is quite hard for people to try to get in their minds the difference in using EC to judge nutrient levels and using EC to adjust osmosis or transpiration. A simple wat to look at it is if you use just a nutrient formula such as 6:3 and run an EC of 2 you will likely fry your plants with ecxcess nutrients. But if you dilute your 6:3:6 fertilizer down to a EC of 0.75 or 1 the plants will not be over fertilized but your transpiration will be low so your growth will be slow. But then if your raise your EC up from 0.75 or 1 to an EC of 1.5 with pottassium you will not fry your plants but will instead increase your tranpiration back up to the needs. Basically you have to find an ideal nutrient level and a ideal EC. They are really determined independently of each other. Your EC is dependent on observation of plant wilting and humidity so are related also to the amount of water you are providing. But even if providing a lot of water withut a high enough EC due to an adequate potassium level you still wil not take up adequate water but will instead just cahnge your root system to one with less hair roots.
There is a learning curve with every type of growing system however the nutrient manafacturers have made it easier g for most growers by fornulationg nutrients for veg and bloom which are developed by doing the same testing with several average type sytsems and common strains and have simply averaged the results out and suplly forn multaions that worjk well enough. They have not done that reserach for HP or air atomized sytems. Even resarch done for NASA has not been through enough for development of a set of averages for the grains and such they have been doing tets with for many years. There can be some many variations due to climatic differences that they have developed growing chambers which are sealed rooms that are fully controlled to finish their testing. So even once they finish their testing it will not really be that useful to anyone eccept those growers using sealed growing rooms.
I don't know if this helped anyone alot but it does show that there is a lot of practices in HP or atomized grows that must be learned that can be ignored with the long term more inefficient grows such as DWC, NTF and low pressure aero grow systems. HP Aero tinkeritis can upset everything also. You basically need to almost entirely build your system to the maxin mum you intend from the beginning as for climatic control as any change later just about means doing the testing for EC and nutrient levels all over if yoyu cahnge anything very much ie by addoing CO2 or dehumification or air conditioning. Changes cause impacts that are noticeable almost instantly with HP aeo and air atomized aero. With less efficient systems the changes cause plnats impcats more slowly and therefore are often not noticed or if they are they are not often attributed to the climatic changes.
ypically when doing testing you only want to change one variable in your testing. For example leave every parameter the same. IE watering cycles, lighting, temp, humidity, CO2 and EC except (in test series 1) vary nutrient concentration (consider additional potassium needed to adjust EC not as a nutrien=nt but just and osmosis/transpirtaion regulator).
In test series 2, Leave every parameter the same but vary something like your magnesium concentrations.
Test series 3 incorporate your learnings from tests 1 and 2 and then maybe alter the CO2 levels or the temp or humidity (only one though).
All these tests are done with the same plant strain and phenotype, IE plants preferably clones from the same mother stock.
As you can sse anything can possibly make a noticeable difference, maybe for the better (you hope after all the time and work).
The sad thing is even if you get good results you need to be able to repeat the same tests and get the same results. If you can do this you have obtained research reserach data based on what is called the scientific method. For someone to be able to refute the data they must run the same test twice exactly as you and come up with different result from you in both of their tests.
The simpliset grows for HP aero and air atomized aeros are SOG. Large plants are more difficult as in general with a high hair root percentage as you tend to get very fast growing dwarfs due to very closely spaced internodes due to the efficiency of nutrient water up take.
Beginning Formula Diluted Down to an HP Aero usable strength.
Nitrogen 80
Phosphorus 25
Potassium 87
Magnesium 28
Calcium 79
Sulfur 37
Iron 3.30
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.67
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03
EC 0.83
TDS 581
Diluted Again beacuse your drain to waster showed over 60% of TDS was going down the drain
Nitrogen 60
Phosphorus 19
Potassium 65
Magnesium 21
Calcium 59
Sulfur 28
Iron 2.50
Manganese 1.25
Boron 1.25
Zinc 1.25
Copper .25
Molybdenum .03
EC 0.62 (note decrease in EC that came with lowering TDS) Ideally you want to raise the EC back up to the previous 0.83 but without adding nitrogen or salts that just antagonize each other. With mj this usually means increasing principally the potassium, followed by magnesium and then phophorus in the form of Phosphoric acid as it will be needed anyway to counter the rise in pH caused by the potassium hydroxide added. This restores your high tranpiration rate and lowers stress that would be caused by varying the EC. Some people also add a bit of sodium chloride (not calcium nitrate). However, most people simply let the plants get stessed a little by the EC change.
- Status